A commenter recently asked, “Would you be willing to submit names of those teachers who are the most widely known [in the Hebrew Roots Movement]. I know at ‘The Final Return’ conference in St. Louis this past weekend, there were several teachers including Bill Cloud, Brad Scott, Jim Staley, etc. What are your views on these people in regards to this movement?”
That is a great question.
When I purposed to start Joyfully Growing In Grace, I prayed a lot about what it should look like and what the content would be like. I had done LOTS of research into the HRM and its prominent teachers, and knew that there is a lot of info out there regarding aspects of Law ‘keeping’ sects and teachers. As I did that research, I couldn’t find anyplace where core issues of Biblical Christianity which were under attack by the HRM and related sects were defended in a comprehensive, step-by-step way, or if they were, many of those sites also had agendas of their own (heresy-hunters who find error with everybody but themselves, KJV-onlyism, or legalistic in their own rights with their own pet doctrines).
I also thought about how I had come to the conclusion that the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism movements and related sects were in error . . . it was by having a good foundation in the Scriptures, many of which had been committed to memory growing up that came bubbling up in my heart and mind as I was presented with false teaching.
So where I stand is here:
It is not by the refutation of every Jim, Bill and Michael (or Eddie, Moshe, Avi, Monte, Brad, etc. list goes on ad nauseum) HRM/MJ teacher that believers will become equipped to recognize false teaching; it is by presenting the truths of the Scriptures that believers will become equipped to discern error. The particular area of error to which God has called me is the error found in the HRM/MJism/Netzarim and related Law ‘keeping’ sects.
This is key to the vision at JGIG:
It is on the core issues of the Faith that a belief system will stand or fall, not a refutation of who’s teaching what at any particular time.
Teachers in the HRM are a dime-a-dozen. The movement is spreading. They troll our churches and pick off those who are discontent with their church, wounded by their church, are rebellious in one way or another, or simply have itchy ears. Then there are those believers who succumb to the “If you really love God, you will . . . ” appeal, because they really do love God! I think sheepwrecked’s testimony relays that heart condition so well. Sheepwrecked was well churched her whole life – but felt like she had “missed it” and been deceived by the Church – after influence from the HRM.
Do I know about the teachers listed above? Yes. And it’s really tempting to write about them, but defending the faith is not about them. It’s about Jesus Christ and His completed work of the Advent, His life, His Death, His Resurrection, and His Ascension. It’s all about JESUS. There are a million (at least) rabbit trails one can go down when investigating the HRM/MJism/Netzarim streams of faith. As I was exposed to Law ‘keeping’ teachings, the thing that kept me on an even keel was not having information about who was teaching what (though some of that was helpful), but in holding fast to the Cross of Christ and the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:2).
If you go to THIS PAGE at JGIG, you can read about how I became aware of the Law ‘keeping’ sects and several posts dealing with issues that have come to my attention and as I have had time to write about them. The Glossary is also a good resource, along with the Articles page. On all of those pages/posts you will find many links as resources should you want to examine different issues more closely.
The goal at JGIG is for believers to have resources to help them make up their own minds about all of this and to have tools available to help equip them to contend for the Gospel when called to do so. If I go head-hunting, then it becomes about false teachers, not about false teaching and refuting THAT with Biblical Truth. I’d rather not give those blokes any more screen time than they already get, know what I mean?
Identifying False Teaching
When looking at what any teacher is teaching, look for where they stand on the core issues.
Watch for the systematic redefinition of terms and the following progression in their teachings. From the Glossary Introduction here at JGIG:
Language. Powerful stuff. If you can control the language, define the terms, manipulate the paradigm of a thing – you exercise great power. [par•a•digm - A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.]
- An Incorrect Paradigm
As this illustration demonstrates, having an incorrect paradigm can change the picture of a thing quite a lot! Is it any wonder that those in the Hebrew Roots Movement have claimed the area of language as their primary pillar of “expertise” as they purpose to lure Christians away from the canon of Scripture to a more “enlightened” way of reading/interpreting Scripture and discerning doctrine?
It’s a seductive way to change a Christian’s paradigm, and ends up in a set of beliefs and practices that is not supported by Scripture. It turns Christianity as inside out as the above illustration turns the concept of the solar system inside out. The picture is recognizable, but is totally false and unworkable when measured by reality.
I’m no linguist, but I’m no dim bulb, either, and it’s been amazing, disturbing, and somewhat amusing to discover how those in the HRM have determined to re-define terms and doctrines as well as pseudo re-translate the New Testament.
I’ve written this before but it’s worth repeating here – One of the things that is really important to be aware of 
regarding this and other heretical movements is that they engage in the re-definition of terms. Once that is accomplished, those re-defined terms become fields in which seeds of questionable doctrine can be cultivated. And it’s the perfect set up for the same thing cults do: Convince you that what you know isn’t true, or is “incomplete”, then come in with fresh revelation based on previously “hidden” information.
At HRM websites and in HRM teaching materials a consistent technique is employed to bring the reader to where the writer wishes them to go, and I can’t stress this enough:
Faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are constructed, then those same faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are built upon as FACT to take the reader to the next doctrinal place the writer wishes the reader to go.
I have seen the same technique over and over in articles and teachings on HRM websites and in discourse with those who hold to Law keeping doctrine from all points on the spectrum.
Determine What the Core Issues of the Christian Faith Are and Go From There
I try to keep it simple. For me the two things I look for when examining any belief system are:
- Do they deny the Deity of or diminish Who Jesus Christ is in any way?
- Do they repeat the Big Lie told by the Serpent in Genesis 3?
If either or both items above are present, I consider the belief system to be fatally flawed and false.
Regarding #1
1 John 4 is one good passage by which to gauge what someone thinks about Who Jesus Christ is. The entire letter to the Ephesians is a great book to read through to see how Christ is exalted and the authority that He has. And of course, John 1, where it is made clear that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. As one reads through the New Testament, one clearly sees the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Anything that denies the God-hood of or diminishes Jesus Christ’s position in any way and/or takes our focus away from Him is error.
Regarding #2
From Genesis 3 - Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say . . . “ and “You will not certainly die,” . . . “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
I had a hard time pinning down #2 in relation to the HRM until I kept hearing the “we must walk as Jesus walked” phrase over and over again in regard to the keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law.
From John 15 – Jesus said, 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.”
Jesus was preparing His disciples for the reality of the New Covenant, The Law of Christ: “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.”
So how does all that tie into the ‘Big Lie’?
Those who say that we must walk in Torah as Yeshua/Jesus Christ did are teaching that before the work of Christ, man was not able to keep the Law, but that after the work of Christ, enabled by His Holy Spirit, we are able to keep the Law – as He did.
We cannot. It is not possible. Jesus Christ is God. He is perfect. He is sinless. We are not God (anyone hear echoes of ” . . . and you will be like God . . . “ ?). Even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are still bound by the imperfect flesh this side of our resurrection (Romans 7) . To say/think/believe that we can walk as Jesus walked in the way of the Law is folly, and not at all how Jesus Himself commanded us to walk!
We hear constantly from those in the HRM, “How do we know what sin is, anyway?” (Anyone hear echoes of, “. . . your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” ?) From there they live, breathe, and eat Torah Law. While saying that Jesus’ Blood is for our salvation, they leave Him at the curb and turn to Torah for sanctification, not relying on the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would come to be our Helper and Counselor, leading His Body into all truth (John 14:26, John 16:12,13) .
Instead, those who advocate Torah observance tell us that unless we live by Torah, we are engaging in willful sin, implying to believers in Christ who walk in the Law of Christ that the Holy Spirit Who lives in them will somehow lead them into sin if they’re not walking in Torah Law:
Galatians 5:13-18
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Back to the ‘Big Lie’
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” It was the birth of Gnosticism, and is woven into every false belief system out there. We are told by those who are studying ‘their Hebrew Roots’, “Did God really say . . . “ when it comes to the New Covenant or Who Jesus Christ really is (many say He is the ‘Living Torah’).
We are told we need to ‘dig deeper’, that Christianity has had it wrong for the past two thousand years, that their (HRMers) eyes have been opened, and that they now know the measure of evil and how to avoid it. Some engage in the practice of consulting with the writings of the sages and rabbis through the ages – most of whom have arrived at their teachings through the use of Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism). Others have adopted teachings derived from the sages and rabbis and their mystical methods and don’t even know it.
For the believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the methods utilized in the practice of Kabbalah are strictly off limits. Even a cursory examination of the practice of Kabbalah will confirm this. I always marvel at the stand HRMers will take against perceived paganism in the celebrations of the Birth and Resurrection of Christ, but how they will not give the same examination to many of the beliefs in the HRM to which they ascribe. (For more on this topic, see, “Doublemindedness in the Hebrew Roots Movement – The Use of Kabbalah and Gematria”.)
As for the HRM stream of thought in which any teacher you come across swims, after you evaluate what they teach by items 1 and 2 above, if they fail either one or both of those core issue tests, the rest is all suspect. For example, many teachers in the HRM teach the ‘Two House Theology’ or the ‘Northern Kingdom’ bit. That teaching is a re-hash of British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist. Most of it is taken straight from the Worldwide Church of God, aka Armstronism. Many HRM teachers will also re-interpret parables like the story of the Prodigal Son, depicting the Prodigal as the Church, the Body of Christ, not as sinful man! If you feel you need to go past items 1 and 2 above, you will find ‘alternate’ interpretations of teaching after teaching from all parts of the Bible by teachers in the Hebrew Roots Movement.
Holy Spirit Spidey Senses
Don’t discount when the Holy Spirit puts a check in your spirit. Pay attention. Get in the Word. Look stuff up. Check the language – especially when someone is machine-gunning Scripture at you. That’s just another technique that those in Law-keeping sects use - to fire off so much Scripture so fast that you don’t have time to check it out. Like I said above, they establish false premises and then build upon those premises as fact, taking you to the next doctrinal place they want you to go. This is especially true in when it comes to the re-definition of terms. (For a more in-depth look at methods used by the HRM, see “Hebrew Roots Movement – Salesmanship 101″)
So take your time and really examine what anyone is teaching you! Pray that God would guard your heart and mind and give you discernment.
May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.
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Other articles of interest:
- Tzit Tzit For the Believer In Christ?
- 12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law ‘Keepers’ Crazy
- Old Testament Believers and New Testament Christians – From the Articles Page – Addresses the issue of how OT saints were ‘saved’ vs. how NT saints are saved, i.e. what salvation meant and how it was obtained before and after the actual work of Christ on the timeline. It clarifies several points that we see Law keepers bring up in debate over and over again as they misapply the phrase from Scripture, “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” and couple that with the claim that the Church (ekklesia, Body of Christ) also existed in the Old Testament. It did not, and this article clarifies the difference between OT believers and NT Christians. Excellent study. Highly recommended.
- Testimonies Page – Read the stories of those who had bound themselves to the Law and then been freed as they began to understand who they are in Christ!
For more resources regarding the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movements see the Post Index, Glossary, and the Articles Page. General study helps, discernment, and apologetics sites can be found HERE.
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Filed under: "Law Keepers", Belief Sytems, Christianity, Discernment, Gemetria, Hebraic Roots, Hebrew Roots Movement, Holy Spirit, Kabbalah, Law of Christ, Messianic Judaism, Religion, Teachable/Unteachable, Torah, Uncategorized Tagged: | Belief Systems, Christianity, Definitions, Discernment, Grace and Law, Hebraic Roots, Hebrew Roots Movement, Law of Christ, Messianic Judaism, Religion, Teachable/Unteachable, Torah
Well said. Very well said. Thank you for putting it in such a way that I can explain to others WHY my husband’s beliefs in the HRM are heretical and why they have damaged our relationship. Because most of them? just don’t get it. They don’t see why it’s so bad and wrong.
Also, I like the website’s new face lift! Very ‘user-friendly’!
Thanks, Kathy. This post has actually been on my heart for a couple of years. Now just seemed like the time to post it. I’m praying for you and your husband, as well as others who have written me in similar situations.
I’m glad you like the new format! I like it because I can find stuff more easily!
Blessings to you, Kathy,
-JGIG
Your post inspired me to write a post on my blog about the problems with the “Jesus is our example” approach in the Seventh-day Adventist church. Thank you for so clearly stating the problems so clearly and thoroughly.
Hi I would like to dialogue with you because I think I can add a few thoughts.
I have walked with the Lord for 45 years and I remember the days when New Testament Christians stayed home on Sunday and had a sabbath rest and I remember when only the sinners were in bars drinking, dancing, smoking, cussing, cheating on taxes, cheating in business and having affairs. I remember when Godly people became missionaries and when Sunday schools actually taught us scripture and when preachers never divorced and never had affairs. I remember.
The present teachings in most “grace filled” churches today is really that, “Christ set us free from the law therefore we are free to sin.”
This is not up for discussion, there are hardly any Godly people out there any where. The majority of believers I know (and I have been in every kind of evangelical church for years and i don’t church hop- I am there every week) but the believers I have observed think nothing of walking in daily sins because “grace teaching” erased the Old and mostly New Testament teachings on sin.
The reason Movements such as the Hebrew Roots Movement are growing is because anyone who has their EYES OPEN and their ears AVAILABLE can see that we need something to bring us back from the lawlessness that is present in today’s evangelical Baptist, Protestant, non-denominational churches.
Let me remind you that the anti-Christ is called the man of LAW-LESS NESS. Paul called him this. Paul was a Jew and obedient to many of the laws even after he was saved. He said “Should I sin so that grace may abound? NO WAY!” Therefore sin upset Paul very much and sin for him would have been to not be following scripture from the Old Testament. Even if you want to argue that he only followed the New Testament it was not even written when he was here, so how could he be speaking about anything other than the Old testament? The Pauline Epistles were letters to specific churches about specific problems and we don’t even know what they had asked him. It was clear that he did not believe that grace gave a license to break the law and to sin. Paul believed the blood of Jesus and grace made his obedience very do-a-ble and with great success but he believed in obedience!
Before Christ and grace… Paul who was an observant Jew knew that obedience was hard, after wards Paul could see that grace helped him to love. He could more easily love a parent, love a spouse and love a jailer or a neighbor. Paul did not compromise he believed in a lifestyle of love eased by grace.
Nowhere does scripture say that Paul or the disciples did not believe in the Old Testament.
Which verse takes grace and erases the Old Testament?
Which verse erases the Ten Commandments?
Which verse erases the blessings that come from obeying the Old Testament?
I don’t know of one, do you? I think there isn’t one!
Therefore we need to thoroughly examine the Old testament law and if we love God we need to try to obey as much of it as we can IF we want to gain a lifestyle of holiness and be His bride.
We need something to bring us back to a state of Godly living!
Most Christians today are not living as obedient Brides of Christ and their lifestyles are FAR from holy. Today’s believers have been told that it doesn’t matter what they do! They have been told the lie that grace means “do whatever you think is right based on what you feel will work for you.” Unfortunately this false understanding about grace teaching has birthed disobedience and compromise. The Body of Christ today is in bad shape and if a holy Jesus were to return would He find an obedient people?
Let me remind you that Jesus never ripped the Old Testament out of the Bible, instead He ripped the veil that separated us from Him! But the Old Testament remained. He gifted us with salvation for free, but it was so that we could live the abundant life of John 10:10. He said if you LOVE me then keep my commandments! Which commandments was He talking about? The Old Testament was the only commandments that were written at the time!
You may think you know something by bashing those who are trying to obey and marvel at your grace filled website but what is the answer you propose? Look at your life and examine that if the Lord returned for you today, are you happy with how you are living or would He find that you are living a life of compromise and disobedience to His commandments? Is your lifestyle holy or is it law-less? Do you take a sabbath rest on either Saturday or Sunday? Do you love and OBEY most and all of His commandments?
Anything less, any teaching that leads to living outside of obedience is false. It you are walking in law-less-ness, you better watch out.
Hi Rachel,
I read through your comment a couple of times, and have lots I could respond to, but as I read the last few paragraphs, the question that kept coming to mind that I’d like to ask you is what does it take to be righteous in God’s sight in your view? What must one do to be saved? What is it that makes one acceptable to God?
-JGIG
JGIG, Thank you for your website and your post about HRM…exellent article! The people in this movement seem to focus on what is negative regarding Christianity (there is a lot of positive also). The focus should be on Christ Jesus and having a personal relationship with HIm … He is sufficient to supply all we need in our Christian walk. To accept God’s gift of Jesus Christ and understanding that Jesus came to demonstrate God’s love and power through the lives of every believers … pleases and glorifies God.
A triple Amen to what you just said. We as a western society have no clue what it means to walk holy and to be ye separate. We don’t even know what it means to be in the world but not of the world. Maybe it’s time for most people to ask the Father to show them what they need to do in their own lives and then listen to what he says and then maybe show a little mercy and grace to others since you have been given those very gifts.
We just left our church over Hebrew Roots infiltrating. We are so very saddened. Tried to reason for a year at least. Thank you so much for this.
I am a former Hebrew Roots/Messianic believer, and the Lord gave me a terrifying wake-up call concerning this false movement. I have written an open letter to all Hebrew Roots/Messianic believers to warn them as the Lord warned me: An Open Letter to Hebrew Roots / Messianic Brethren
Hi Yaresh,
I read you testimony today, wow our God is great and greatly to be praised! Thanks so much for sharing. I think I have a few more insights into the demonic attach and stronghold the HRM has on the people who get entangled in it’s snare. May I share a little of my story in hopes it will encourage you to pray for my wife.
My wife was introduced into this movement several years ago. I had many red flags going of when I attended the congregation with her. I also made that very plain to her they were teaching heresy and was disaproving of her continuing to go. After several visits we stopped attending and began going to a wonderfull fellowship for several years that taught the Word of God and were growing and doing well until the that church desbanded for infidelity issues in the leadership.
We stated attending a good bible teaching church but did not fell like it was where God needed us. A little over a year I felt lead to go to another fellowship and we began attending it together for less than a year. I continue to go to this day by myself.
I thought my wifes dabling in the HRM was done away with until about a year ago one of her married freinds introduced and invited her to go to a bible study to learn once again about the HRM. My wife has repeatedly gone outside of my God given covering despite my warnings and sharing that what she is doing is wrong, This teacher of this “bible study”, which was not a bible study at all, but a conversion tacktic deployed by the false teacher to deceive my wife and undermine my authority as the husband and spiritual leader of this home. Her freind is estranged from her husband. So as you can see there was another man teaching two married women which is totally un-biblical. This man was confronted and the meeting were stopped.
Well since then, my wife took it upon her self to stop going to church with me ( 4 months). Her not going with me is of great concern. I guess after reading your testimony I’m begining to wonder if this is a demonic assalt/attack on her which the HRM movements has given inroads into her life. I see her falling away from the Lord, doing strange things that are so not like her. She seems so distressed, disolutioned, depresses and un-happy around me. I am deeply concerned and worried for her.
Please pray for her and our marraige relationship….it’s under so much attack. Pray the Lord well help me be faithfull to love her and give me great wisdom from the sciptures on verses that remind her who she is in Christ Jesus.
I could share so much more. Thank you again for sharing your testimony of God rescuing and delivering you from the hedious HRM.
May you grow in Grace and Knowlege of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
In The Fathers Love, Blessings!
Mark
Okay. First off, you must realize that, just like any other religious movements, there are many many different brands. This goes for HRM, Messianic-Judaism, Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc. etc. It is not really fair that you label all with issues you have of some.
Now onto my points of contention:
–They troll our churches and pick off those . . .–
Well now. Seems you hit the ground running with the ugly rhetoric. As far as I know, no one “trolls” churches. Everyone I know has come to the realization on their own accord. Every single testimony that I have heard . . . they all say the same thing.
Granted, their may be some who do what you say, but it is a very far cry from the all-inclusiveness, which you claim.
–who are discontent with their church, wounded by their church–
So if one does not agree with what their church leaders are saying, or are hurt by their brothers, they should just suck it up, and continue on? 2 John 1:7-11 says we should not even greet someone who gives false teachings and doctrine. 1 Timothy 6 says to flee from contradictory teachings and from those who have an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
So are we to follow God’s word, or follow man, no matter what?
–are rebellious in one way or another,–
Rebellious against what, exactly? Against man’s dogma, or against the Word?
I was born and raised a Baptist. We were taught that dancing and drinking any kind of alcohol was a sin. So I did my due diligence. Psalm 149:3 and 150:4 give examples of dancing in worship and praise of God. Jesus turned water into wine (ahem, alcohol) at Caanan, and he had wine (alcohol) at His last supper. So if the Bible is the word of God, that must mean that he approves of both activities (of course with regards to appropriateness of time and self control, as with everything in life, according to His word). The prohibitions were/are extra-biblical, and therefore, not a sin.
I was considered rebellious by my brothers and sisters, and my dad, who was the pastor of the church. I was rebellious, against man made doctrine. I was right in line with God’s word. Being rebellious against man-made doctrine, is again, Biblically sound.
– or simply have itchy ears.–
There are people like that in every group. They only want to hear what makes them feel good. To assert that this is the fault of HRM is disingenuous at best.
– Then there are those believers who succumb to the “If you really love God, you will . . . ” appeal, –
Finish it off. If you really love God, you will keep his commandments. The words of Jesus affirm this. SO you are upset because people are succumbing to the words and teachings of Jesus?
–Those who say that we must walk in Torah as Yeshua/Jesus Christ did are teaching that before the work of Christ, man was not able to keep the Law, but that after the work of Christ, enabled by His Holy Spirit, we are able to keep the Law –
This is false. What most HRM teachers say is that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life. Man could not, and can never, completely keep the law. In OT times, if one sinned (broke the law), they were dead. With the sacrifice of Jesus, if one sins, His blood gives us grace from the death penalty.
–We cannot. It is not possible. Jesus Christ is God. He is perfect. He is sinless. We are not God –
Indeed. But you totally miss the point. Even the basic meaning of Christianity is to be Christ-like. WWJD. Remember that? Jesus followed the Law. He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. To live it perfectly. If we are to try our best to emulate Jesus (which we should do, according to Paul), than we should try and live as he did. We will never be perfect, but that does not mean to not even try.
–To say/think/believe that we can walk as Jesus walked in the way of the Law is folly,–
No one believes that we can be a perfect imitator of Jesus. But even Paul tells us we should try our hardest to do as such.
– and not at all how Jesus Himself commanded us to walk!–
WHAT?
Matthew 23:1-3 – “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’”
2 Timothy 3:16 – “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…”
Matthew 5:19 – “Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Jesus Himself, commands us to follow the law to the best of our ability. Any deviations are covered by grace, instead of death.
–We hear constantly from those in the HRM, “How do we know what sin is, anyway?” –
I have never heard anyone HRM ask this, but I will address it anyways.
1 John 3:4 – Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
Oh my. Sin is breaking, violating, disobeying and/or transgressing the law. Torah = law. So sin is when one violates Torah.
–From there they live, breathe, and eat Torah Law.–
Yes, because that is what Jesus said to do.
– While saying that Jesus’ Blood is for our salvation, they leave Him at the curb and turn to Torah for sanctification,–
No, Jesus is not left at the curb. The Torah sanctifies nothing. Jesus’ grace is our sanctification. We live by Torah, because that is what God commanded, and re-commanded through Jesus. Transgressions on Torah (sin) is covered by the blood of Jesus.
–not relying on the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would come to be our Helper and Counselor, leading His Body into all truth–
We do rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us in what is right for our lives. Another ridiculous statement.
–Instead, those who advocate Torah observance tell us that unless we live by Torah, we are engaging in willful sin–
Well, technically, according to 1 John 3:4, those that do not follow Torah, ARE engaging in willful sin.. That does not mean that they are not going to Heaven, or anything like that. They are God’s child. They are covered by grace, But yet, because they failed to follow the commandments, they will be the least in Heaven, according to Jesus (Matthew 5:19).
– We are told by those who are studying ‘their Hebrew Roots’, “Did God really say . . . “ –
No, we are discerning, which Paul, quite bluntly, tells us to do.
Or would you prefer to follow blindly?
–when it comes to the New Covenant or Who Jesus Christ really is (many say He is the ‘Living Torah’).–
Did Jesus not follow Torah (the law) perfectly? Is He not living? If you answered yes to both, then you admit that Jesus is the living Torah.
–For the believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the methods utilized in the practice of Kabbalah are strictly off limits. Even a cursory examination of the practice of Kabbalah will confirm this. I always marvel at the stand HRMers will take against perceived paganism in the celebrations of the Birth and Resurrection of Christ, but how they will not give the same examination to many of the beliefs in the HRM to which they ascribe. (For more on this topic, see, “Doublemindedness in the Hebrew Roots Movement – The Use of Kabbalah and Gematria”.)–
By following your link, I see that you place many things that are not Kabbalah into it.
Gematria is not Kabbalah. That is part of the Hebrew language. As such, even Revelation tells us “those that have wisdom are to count the number of the beast.”
Secondly, PaRDeS is not strictly Kabbalah. The Parables that Jesus spoke . . . the same ones tha even every Christian hears in Sunday School . . . were spoken with PaRDeS. Furthermore, to teach them, one must use PaRDeS.
– For example, many teachers in the HRM teach the ‘Two House Theology’ or the ‘Northern Kingdom’ bit. That teaching is a re-hash of British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist. Most of it is taken straight from the Worldwide Church of God, aka Armstronism. –
Actually, if you would do your diligence, you would find that two-house is scripturally sound, and has NOTHING to do with British-Israelism. Even Jews, including the government of Israel, believe that there is a lost 10 tribes out there somewhere. Heck, Jesus Himself said that He came for the lost tribes.
Furthermore, Ezekiel 37 and Romans 11 confirm the teaching of Believers being grafted into Israel.
Armstrongism was replacement theology. Two house is anti-replacement. Black and white, dear.
If you do not with to see the truth set before you, that is fine. It is your life, and you must deal with the consequences of your choices, just as I must deal with mine. But for the love of all that is good, please do some basic research before you decide to slander a whole group of people who are trying to follow the Word of God.
~~Steven
Hi Steven,
Welcome to JGIG.
Yes, I know that there are wide and varied practices and beliefs in the Hebrew Roots Movement. I actually find that kind of humorous, since one of the big things in the HRM is that they say they are getting back to THE Way and rejecting the ‘many denominations’ that have become churchianity. As for who is susceptible to the teachings of the HRM, I stand by what I wrote based what those who have been in the HRM have told me and my observations of those in the HRM that I know.
You wrote: “Jesus Himself, commands us to follow the law to the best of our ability. Any deviations are covered by grace, instead of death.”
No, He did not.
You support the idea that Jesus is the Living Torah. He is not. He is the Living God.
You deny that Gematria is part of Kabbalah. You are mistaken. Numbers obviously have significance in the Scriptures. There is a sense of great order and consistency in God’s Word, and some of that is brought about by God’s use of numbers. The Hebrew alef-bet also contains a numeric system because Hebrew did not have a separate numeric system. I do understand that. Where I draw the line is where values are placed on words/phrases/passages to ‘unlock hidden meanings’ in the Scriptures. That is Gematria and it is a foundational component of Kabbalah.
PaRDeS is also something to avoid. One can read why HERE.
You also stand by the Two House Doctrine and exhort me to do my ‘diligence’ about the teaching. I have, and it is a false teaching. It’s based on false premises and the picking and applying of Scriptures where they don’t fit. You are correct, Armstrongism is replacement theology; Two House theology is replacement theology on steroids, claiming that the Body is ethnic Israel and not only spiritual Israel.
You wrote: “If you do not with to see the truth set before you, that is fine. It is your life, and you must deal with the consequences of your choices, just as I must deal with mine. But for the love of all that is good, please do some basic research before you decide to slander a whole group of people who are trying to follow the Word of God.”
I’m a redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb, cleansed from sin believer in Jesus Christ. Why would you attempt to make me fearful about who I am in Christ?
As for your charge that I haven’t done ‘basic research’, well, I’ll let the reader make a judgement call on that.
Blessings,
-JGIG
I am checking out the HRM and have been studying scripture to come to my own conclusion. I have yet to come to a conclusion. I Love God, I declare my salvation is in Christ alone and the work He completed at Calvary. In response to JGIG and Steven’s discussion two scriptures come to mind:
– the first is in response to whether or not Jesus is the Living Torah:
John 1:1 ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” and if you continue to read the good book; John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
I would say this verse clearly states Jesus is God, He is Living, and He is the word; therefore He is the Living Word!
- the second is in response to “Jesus Himself, commands us to follow the law to the best of our ability. Any deviations are covered by grace, instead of death.” I can’t find a scripture that supports this or discredits this statement directly. The one scripture that does come to mind is this: 1 John 5:1-4 “1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”
I would like for whoever is reading this post to focus on verse 3: “FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS”.
What commandments are JEsus talking about? Well if Jesus is the Word, I would conclude this means ALL of the commandments. Not just some.
From what i have determined thus far about the HRM is they believe through Christ we are saved, and that’s it. I was introduced to HRM this past spring (2011) and have been studying scripture since. If anything, my friend who is involved in this movement, has prompted me to study scripture; and that is Good. Today’s church is Scripturally Illiterate, immediate to believe whatever teaching their pastor or denomonation holds true, without studying what the Bible actually says for themselves.
As i continue down this journey, I will hold firm to the truths of God’s word. I pray that the HOly Spirit will give me discernment to know only His truths.
Nathan
Hi Nathan,
Welcome to JGIG =o).
I pray that God provide you with wisom and disernment as you consider who you are in Christ. That is the key – who you are in Christ. May I suggest that you read the most recent post at JGIG, found HERE, and also the recommended reading links provided a the end of that post?
Blessings and prayers,
-JGIG
“And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT: That you believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another as He gave us commandment.”-1 John 3:23
I would like to give an example of how little people in the church understand…..Most think the gospel means that Jesus came to save us…..WRONG and you ask why, here it is ,why did Jesus himself say he was here to share the gospel. He was not dead , he had not died so the church needs to find out what the gospel means because if you are up for the challenge, it is the gospel that is in the old testament. Look for it, seek and you find ask and it will be given to you.
John 3:16-17
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Luke 19:9-10
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.”
Romans 1:16-17
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
1 Corinthians 15:1-11
1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
I’m so happy to be saved by grace and can do anything I want since I’m secure in Jesus. These HRM people try to tell me I cannot serve other God’s, commit murder, commit adultry , steal, etc. They think they are saved by following the Law. I am so thankful to be saved by Grace and not by works. Thank you Jesus and please return quickly since I’m not prepared to face any hardships.
Hi Gary,
Welcome to JGIG =o).
Where do you see the Scriptures supporting your satire?
Where do you see the Body of Christ supporting your satiristic assertions?
Where do you see anything written at JGIG that condones murder, adultery, theft, etc.?
If one is walking in the Law of Love is one murdering? Committing adultery? Stealing? You might want to take a look at The Law of Christ – Defined and Defended to get a grasp on what Jesus and the apostles taught about how we should then live as those in Christ.
Your sarcasm is noted. You think yourself a clever soul, don’t you . . .
I’m thankful for HRM folk like you who act as apologists for the movement . . . you demonstrate the fruits much better than I could ever communicate them. Thank you for your comment.
-JGIG
I cannot believe that you run a website on things you hear from people and observe from them! Your facts on these matters are so off line, you stand and judge people with your bible under your arm. Just remember, the bible says those who lead people astray and teachers who bring souls to the fall will be judged harsher. I am a christian baptist, your theories dont even fit into our belief system, would you like to call us a sect aswell? I have been listening to a lot of teachings from bill, jim staley and brad scott. I think maybe you havent been, because whats written on your site is definately not coming out of their mouths! your facts are off the beaten track, rather start a positive uplifting site, rather than bashing people who believe in the bible, the all inspired Word of our Saviour and King
Hey there, ilze,
Welcome to JGIG ??
I am aware of what the Bible says about those who teach the Word. That’s why I am very careful about the issues I choose to write about. Lots of prayer and study goes into each post.
You wrote, “I am a christian baptist, your theories dont even fit into our belief system, would you like to call us a sect as well? ”
All I can say to that is that I went to a Baptist High School for five years and use a Baptist curriculum for homeschooling 5 of our 7 children, which gives me a pretty good idea what Baptists believe. On the core issues of the faith, we agree. Perhaps it is you who is not well grounded in your own faith and that is why you have found the likes of Cloud, Staley, and Scott so bewitching? I don’t mean that to sound harsh, but those who have a good foundation about who they are in Christ are less likely to buy what these guys are selling. The second most-searched term that folks use to find this site is “Jim Staley false teacher”, right behind people looking for this site by name. And I don’t even have any articles here about specific teachers! People write in with comments about their experiences or their family’s experiences with these teachers.
You are right about one thing: what’s written here is definitely not coming out of the mouths of those teachers! Amen to that! If there is one post I could get you to read here, it would be, Hebrew Roots Movement – Salesmanship 101 and its comments. If you are honest with yourself, I think you will see that you may be in the midst of that process.
Grace and peace to you in your journey,
-JGIG
Ilze this site is not about bashing The bible, it about exposing people who bring the Mosaic law on equal grounds of salvation.
instead of posting a rant, maybe read the articles .
maybe you should check out 8day for life or for The love of true or this site
http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#faqs
8day for life, The love of truth and seek God are all run by people who were in the hebrew rights movement for over 10 years and agree with this site.
Thanks, Travis =o).
Those suggested links are good resources. Seekgod.ca is not run by a former HRMer, though. But she has done a ton of research into the movement and some of its main teachers.
8thday and ForTheLoveOfTruth both were in the HRM, though I’m not sure for how long. It was a number of years.
Sometimes I just don’t know where to start in a response to a comment like ilze’s. He/She is a person who has obviously not read much here, or they would not have posted what they did. Thanks for exhorting ilze to read instead of rant =o).
Blessings,
-JGIG
After recently viewing a piece by Jim Staley posted on FB berating the celebrating of Christmas and Easter, the hair on the back of my neck instantly stood up and my first thought was “cult”. My mother is a fanatical Jehovah Witness for 37 yrs. They too live by the law and Jim sounded too much like mom. So today I did my research and “Praise GOD”, I found your sight. Suspicions confirmed thank you so much. I also posted your link to my FB account. Please keep up the good work. We are in the last of days and the cults are on the increase disguised better then ever before!
God Bless,
Terry
Thanks, Terry, and welcome to JGIG!
It is amazing how many similarities there are between Jehovah’s Witnesses and even Mormon theology sprinkled in the Law keeping sects.
Thanks for posting a link at FB. I have a JGIG page there, but cannot post anything there. I’ve been locked out for a couple of months now, with no response from FB as to why. grrrrr
Oh well, God knows =o). Thanks for the kind words and thanks for your willingness to have a discerning heart!
Every blessing,
-JGIG
Your account is very hard to access. I tried contacting FB on your behalf but with no success! It appears your account may have been hacked. Gee, I guess that wouldn’t surprise you. I have experienced being hacked in the past on U-tube when I stepped on the toes of The Acorn ppl. The Hebrew Root Movement has no doubt done the same too you. I would be very persistent (daily) about contacting FB concerning this matter. In the future I suggest a password so complicated you need to write it down. This is what I have resorted to!
God Bless,
Terry
Hey Terry – I was able to do a search on FB for joyfully growing in grace with spaces and it came right up for me. I can read everything there – I just cannot post anything. MOST annoying!
Thanks for trying to contact FB on my behalf!
-JGIG
Just a heads up . . . I am able to post again on my fb account. It was an IP address issue. All better now =o).
-JGIG
It is amazing to me that people can focus on the “singular” verses that supposedly support their viewpoint. Jesus said over and over again when talking about the commandments, that the fulfillment of that is to love one another. And there is no new commandment given. It is the sustaining factor of the believer. 1 John 3:23 tells us that we must BELIEVE ON HIM, AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER. That is His commandment. There is no other to attain salvation. Whoever confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and believes that God has raised Him from the dead, they are saved. How can we so quickly turn away from the gospel that was preached to us unto salvation. The purpose of the law is to CONVICT US. It shows us sin. And then we believe on Him who died for that sin. Going forward from that we are to love each other. That is the fulfillment of the law.
HRM does not teach anything different than what the Bible teaches. The article for which I am responding spent very little time on actual scripture and more time on trying to make certain teachers suspicious.
(Balance of comment deleted for two reasons: 1. The premise stated is false; lots of Scripture is referred to/written in the OP and little time is given to certain teachers. If Julio had thoroughly read the OP, he would have realized that individual teachers are NOT the target here, but teachings that are contrary to the Gospel ARE the target here, and 2. Julio violated the comments policy by using this platform as an opportunity to pontificate about the Law ‘keeping’ paradigm.
Julio, here’s the link to the Comments Policy here at JGIG: Comments Policy Give it a read and you’re welcome to try again.
Grace and Peace,
-JGIG)
I pray first of all that you can see that like those you are pointing the finger at you are also doing the same thing. I am sorry to have to make that point but it is a matter of making sure the log is OUT of your eye before going to fix the log that is in another eye. I have been a part of everyone of the groups you have mentioned, the church, Messianic, Hebrew roots and I agree that none of these groups have all the answers. I am now settling into what I believe Yahshua / Jesus has wanted all along. I seek to know Him with every fiber of my being.If you want to judge me because I use his Hebrew name then know that he was born a Hebrew man. I know that much is spoken about keeping the law in these groups but what I have found is that the church keeps the 10 commandments (where is the difference). I know that the more intimate I become with my savior the less likely I am to break the commandments. I will fail as we all will but he has from the time Adam and Eve sinned showed us mercy and grace that not one of us deserve. I think it is YHVH ( GOD’s name in Hebrew) that has said in the scriptures that HE HIMSELF will deal with the false teachers and the false prophets. It is our calling to be innocent as doves and wise as serpents so we each one have to do that in obedience. I will not judge for I trust my heavenly Father to be the only true judge that knows the intent of the heart.I just ask all of the people who are so quick to make these judgements to instead live and walk in the truth of our Messiah so that he can be seen and the darkness that may be in these people will be brought to light on the terms of THE MOST HOLY ONE. Let’s seek the ability to walk in truth and spirit and let Yahshua do the work that needs to be done in the hearts of every man. Thank you to those who receive this with an open, soft GOD fearing heart.
Hi JL,
Welcome to JGIG.
I think if you read more here, especially what is written in the sidebars under ‘What JGIG Is’ and What JGIG Is Not’ you will have a better idea of where my heart is. I’ll just leave it at that =o).
Blessings,
-JGIG
You are a idiot !!! Wake up!!! Love to debate this or any issue with you
That’s what I like . . . a well thought out, point-by-point, comprehensive and productive comment . . . =o/
My husband’s name is Mike. It might very well be him that made that comment. :/
The final comment I will leave on your site is this. The Church defiles our Messiah by celebrating Easter which is a pagan holiday (of course you don’t have the eyes to see the truth here. The church celebrates christmas ( the birthday Tamuz another pagan God) You people continue to keep your eyes closed to the things that show me just how much you love the Messiah when the very things you do defile his Holiness. Scripture is very clear when it says that we are to “come out of her MY PEOPLE”. I can not and will not listen to people defile the holiness of YHVH and Yahshua. Remember that everytime you write and tell people not to follow the Law (instruction) of YHVH it would be better that you be cast into the sea with a stone around your neck. I certainly would be walking in great fear by saying that people who obey the instruction of YHVH are a cult. I truly pray that you would ask the spirit of THE ALMIGHTY to give you spiritual vision to see what you are doing to his sheep.
J.L.,
The Church, the Body of Christ, does not celebrate pagan holidays. Not all in the Body celebrate the Birth and Resurrection of Christ, but those who do are in no way worshipping pagan gods. To state that they do is simply a lie. In 2011, when Hanukkah fell on December 20-28, did those who celebrated it also celebrate Tammuz’s birth simply because of the days on the calendar on which the celebration fell? Of course not!
You wrote, “Remember that everytime you write and tell people not to follow the Law (instruction) of YHVH it would be better that you be cast into the sea with a stone around your neck.”
J.L., you show yourself as one who has not really read what is written here. I NEVER tell people not to follow the Law of God! Defining what is required of we who are in Christ is addressed, but I never tell people what to do. If you want to live according to the Old Covenant, that is certainly your choice. As one in Christ, I choose to live in the New Covenant which is superior to the Old, which in Christ is obsolete:
Hebrews 8:6, 13
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
I think it appropriate to let the writer of the letter to the Hebrews have the last word.
-JGIG
Hello, JGIG
I too think it appropriate to let the writer of Hebrews have the last word on the supremacy and completed work of Christ.
God’s Supreme Revelation, Hebrews 1:1-4
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The reference to Christ “sat down at the right hand of the Magesty on high”….speaks of Christ resting from completing the Father reedeming, reconciling, restoring and effectual work of the cross; making the way possible that the JUST and HOLY ONE can justify the unjust and sinful one (you and I) who place their faith and trust in the finished work of Christ. In like fashion there is rest for those who stop working trying to please God with ther own sacrificial system trying to earn His favor rather then resting in His completed work thru Christ. Oh how marvelous is the mercy and grace of our God.
I pray the Lord will encourage your heart JGIG…you are doing a great work addressing the lies and heresy the HRM teaches.
Blessings to you,
Praise God for His wonderfull salvation!
Mark
The original post contained the comment, “man was not able to keep the Law, but that after the work of Christ, enabled by His Holy Spirit, we are able to keep the Law – as He did.” After the first few negative posts derided the author for not knowing what she was talking about and not doing her research, the conversation turned in just that direction. Which of course just goes to further prove the original point.
I come from a tradition that teaches we are sanctified by faith alone the same way we are justified by faith alone. Perhaps not everyone will fill comfortable taking things that far, but I think we can agree that sanctification can not become the same type of moral ism you could achieve in just about any other religious setting. Sanctification is not a personal improvement project, but a being made holy. We can only be made holy through the one who alone is called Holy.
It seems to me that the HRM has a bit of a Roman stripe running through it. Rome is afraid that faith alone will lead to moral and spiritual laxity. HRM (holding this same concern) seems to see justification as Gods part while sanctification, read our new ability to follow the law, as our part. The only difference being where does man get his say.
In truth the scarey part about the new birth is not the dying to our self it is the being born a new creation. We do not completely want to give up total control to God. We still ask what about me, what is my role. His answer is let me be God. As we are sanctified we will become a neighbor, freely, spontaneously, giving of the self in self-forgetful and uncalculating ways. “But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you” (Mt 6:3-4).
It has been said that sanctification is just the getting used to your justification. Just as we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone, we are also sanctified through a faith that believes that he will bring to completion this good work which he has begun in us. God has not empowered us to keep the law. Luther once said, “The law commands do this and it is never done. Faith says believe this and everything is already done.” The good we do is a fruit regardless of whether we are talking about sanctification or justification. In both cases it is God who brings about the change in us and it is a change that turns us towards him and not towards ourselves and what we can do.