• What JGIG Is:

    Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

    The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

    Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

    These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

    It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

    Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

    To borrow from a Forest Gump quote, “Law ‘keepers’ are like a box of chocolates - ya never know what you’re gonna get!” The goal of JGIG is to be a resource to help those affected by the Torah pursuant movements to try and sort out what they’re dealing with. Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

    Be sure to click on the many embedded links within the posts here - there's lots of additional and related information for you to access that way, as well.

    Welcome, and may God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

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Identifying False Teaching

(Edited and expanded 4/6/13.)  A commenter recently asked, “Would you be willing to submit names of those teachers who are the most widely known [in the Hebrew Roots Movement]. I know at ‘The Final Return’ conference in St. Louis this past weekend, there were several teachers including Bill Cloud, Brad Scott, Jim Staley, etc. What are your views on these people in regards to this movement?”

That is a great question.

When I purposed to start Joyfully Growing In Grace, I prayed a lot about what it should look like and what the content would be like. I had done lots of research into the HRM and its prominent teachers, and knew that there is a lot of info out there regarding aspects of Law ‘keeping’ sects and teachers.  As I did that research, I couldn’t find anyplace where core issues of Biblical Christianity which were under attack by the HRM and related sects were defended in a comprehensive, step-by-step way, or if they were, many of those sites also had agendas of their own (heresy-hunters who find error with everybody but themselves, KJV-onlyism, or legalistic in their own rights with their own pet doctrines).

I also thought about how I had come to the conclusion that the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism movements and related sects were in error . . . it was by having a good foundation in the Scriptures, many of which had been committed to memory growing up that came bubbling up in my heart and mind as I was presented with false teaching.

So where I stand is here:
It is not by the refutation of every Jim, Jon, Bill and Michael (or Eddie, Moshe, Avi, Monte, Brad, etc. list goes on ad nauseam) HRM/MJ teacher that believers will become equipped to recognize false teaching; it is by presenting the truths of the Scriptures that believers will become equipped to discern error.  The particular area of error to which God has called me is the error found in the Hebrew Roots Movement and related Law ‘keeping’ sects.
false prophet tape
This is key to the vision at JGIG:

It is on the core issues of the Faith that a belief system will stand or fall, not in refutations of who’s teaching what at any particular time.  The primary goal at JGIG is to equip believers in the core issues of the Gospel:  Who Jesus is, what He came to do, what that actually accomplished, and who believers are in Him.  When one has a firm grasp on those foundational Truths, falsehoods become more obvious and tend to fall away.

Teachers in the HRM are a dime-a-dozen. The movement is spreading.  They troll our churches and pick off those who are discontent with their church, wounded by their church, are rebellious in one way or another, or simply have itchy ears.  Then there are those believers who succumb to the “If you really love God, you will . . . ” appeal, because they really do love God!  I think sheepwrecked’s testimony relays that heart condition so well.  Sheepwrecked was well churched her whole life – but felt like she had “missed it” and been deceived by the Church after influence from the HRM.

Do I know about the teachers listed above?  Yes.  And it’s really tempting to write about them, but defending the faith is not about them.  It’s all about JESUS – Who He is, what He came to do, what that accomplished, and who we are in Him.  There are a million (at least) rabbit trails one can go down when investigating the HRM/MJism/Netzarim streams of faith.  As I was exposed to Law ‘keeping’ teachings, the thing that kept me on an even keel was not having information about who was teaching what (though some of that was helpful), but in holding fast to the Cross of Christ and the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:2).

If you go to this page at JGIG, you can find out about how I became aware of the Law-keeping sects and read several posts dealing with issues that have come to my attention as I have had time to write about them.  The Glossary is also a good resource, along with the Articles page.  The GIG Media page has good, foundational teaching with an emphasis on Old Covenant/New Covenant issues.  On all of those pages/posts you will find many embedded links as resources should you want to examine different issues more closely.  Also be aware that teachers seeking to educate the Body about Her ‘Hebraic Roots’ may sound like they believe what other Christians believe, but beware:  it is often what they believe in addition to the core issues of the Gospel which result in the nullification of those core issues and the preaching/teaching of a different jesus and a different gospel.  Note also that the HRM has very little interest in reaching the lost with the Gospel, but rather is very concerned about putting the Body of Christ under Old Covenant Law.

The goal at JGIG is for believers to have resources to help them make up their own minds about all of this and to have tools available to help equip them to contend for the Gospel when called to do so.  If I go head-hunting, then it becomes about false teachers, not about false teaching and refuting THAT with Biblical Truth.  I’d rather not give those blokes any more screen time than they already get, know what I mean?

[Edited to add 10/21/13]  Due to the volume of emails and private messages I get asking about Jim Staley and Passion For Truth Ministries, and due to the aggressive marketing that PFT does, there is now a page here at JGIG that addresses Staley’s signature teaching, ‘Identity Crisis’ and related teachings.  The page also examines his leadership style and his testimony about how PFT started.  The page can be viewed here,  Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement  –  An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley, and can also be accessed from the Articles page.

Identifying False Teaching
When looking at what any teacher is teaching, look for where they stand on the core issues.

Watch for the systematic redefinition of terms and the following progression in their teachings.  From the Glossary Introduction here at JGIG:

Language. Powerful stuff. If you can control the language, define the terms, manipulate the paradigm of a thing – you exercise great power.  [par•a•digm - A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.]

An Incorrect Paradigm

As this illustration demonstrates, having an incorrect paradigm can change the picture of a thing quite a lot! Is it any wonder that those in the Hebrew Roots Movement have claimed the area of language as their primary pillar of “expertise” as they purpose to lure Christians away from the canon of Scripture to a more “enlightened” way of reading/interpreting Scripture and discerning doctrine?

It’s a seductive way to change a Christian’s paradigm, and ends up in a set of beliefs and practices that is not supported by Scripture.  It turns Christianity as inside out as the above illustration turns the concept of the solar system inside out. The picture is recognizable, but is totally false and unworkable when measured by reality.

It’s been amazing, disturbing, and somewhat amusing to discover how those in the HRM have determined to re-define terms and doctrines as well as pseudo re-translate the New Testament.

I’ve written this before but it’s worth repeating here – One of the things that is really important to be aware of regarding this and other heretical movements is that they engage in the re-definition of terms. Once that is accomplished, those re-defined terms become fields in which seeds of questionable doctrine can be cultivated.  And it’s the perfect set up for the same thing cults do: Convince you that what you know isn’t true, or is “incomplete”, then come in with fresh revelation based on previously “hidden” information.

At HRM websites and in HRM teaching materials a consistent technique is employed to bring the reader to where the writer wishes them to go, and I can’t stress this strongly enough:

Faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are constructed, then those same faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are built upon as FACT to take the reader/listener/viewer to the next doctrinal place the teacher wishes them to go.

I have seen the same technique over and over in articles and teachings on HRM websites and in discourse with those who hold to Law keeping doctrine from all points on the spectrum.

Determine What the Core Issues of the Christian Faith Are and Go From There
I try to keep it simple.  For me the two things I look for when examining any belief system are:

  1. Do they deny the Deity of or diminish Who Jesus Christ is or His Work in any way?
  2. Do they repeat the Big Lie told by the Serpent in Genesis 3?

If either or both items above are present, I consider the belief system to be fatally flawed and false.

Regarding #1
1 John 4 is one good passage by which to gauge what someone thinks about Who Jesus Christ is.  The entire letter to the Ephesians is a great book to read through to see how Christ is exalted and the authority that He has.  And of course, John 1, where it is made clear that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.  The letter to the Hebrews further establishes Jesus as God and as our Perfect High Priest, as well as explaining in great detail the superiority of Jesus’ Priesthood and the New Covenant over the Old..  As one reads through the New Testament, one clearly sees the Lordship of Jesus Christ and His authority.  Anything that denies the God-hood of or diminishes Jesus Christ’s Work, Authority, or Position as the Perfect High Priest in any way and/or takes our focus away from Him and His Work, Authority or Position is error.

Let me repeat here: be aware that teachers seeking to educate the Body about Her ‘Hebraic Roots’ may sound like they believe what other Christians believe, but beware:  it is often what they believe in addition to the core issues of the Gospel which result in the nullification of those core issues and the preaching/teaching of a different jesus and a different gospel.

Regarding #2
From Genesis 3 –  Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say . . . “ and “You will not certainly die,”  . . . “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I had a hard time pinning down #2 in relation to the HRM until I kept hearing the ‘we must walk as Jesus walked’ phrase over and over again in regard to the keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law.  The Scripture used most often to convince believers that they should be living according to Old Covenant Law is 1 John 2:3-6, and taken out of context, is quite compelling:

1 John 2:3-6
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

So how does all that tie into the ‘Big Lie’?

Part One of the ‘Big Lie’:
Those who say that we must walk in Torah as Yeshua/Jesus Christ did are teaching that before the work of Christ, man was not able to keep the Law, but that after the work of Christ, enabled by His Holy Spirit, we are able to keep the Law – as He did.

We cannot.  It is not possible.  Jesus Christ is God.  He is perfect.  He is sinless.  We are not God (anyone hear echoes of ” . . . and you will be like God . . . “ ?).  Even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are still bound by the imperfect flesh this side of our resurrection (Romans 7) and by a mind/soul in need of constant renewal (Romans 12).  To say/think/believe that we can walk as Jesus walked in the way of the Law is folly, and not at all how Jesus Himself commanded us to walk (John 13:34-35, John 15:12-17).

So how do we ‘walk as Jesus walked’?
A commenter at the JGIG Facebook page quoted the above passage from 1 John 2, with the following emphases: 

“We know we have come to KNOW him if we obey his commands.  The man who says, ‘I know him,’ but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him:  Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (I John 2:3-6—NIV)”

This is the argument we hear a lot from those in Law-keeping camps: that if you’re going to walk as Jesus walked – Jesus being a Sabbath-keeping, clean-eating, tzit tzit wearing, Torah-keeping Jew – His example is how you too, should walk – in Torah obedience!

Context, dear ones, please  .  .  ..  .  .

What are God’s commands after the Work of Christ?  God is very clear in the same letter written through John that the commenter quoted from above:

1 John 3:21-24
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.  23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Regarding, “This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”, again, let’s go to what God also says through John:

1 John 4:13-21
13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. (This again reinforces 1 John 3:23) 

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.  [This, inclusive of the verses before and after this statement, and shows us how we are to walk as Jesus walked - in love.]

18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.  The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

John never points us to Law-keeping, and he never instills fear in the believer because those in Christ need not fear punishment; all of our sins have been dealt with at the Cross and we have received the free gift of righteousness (Romans 5) – he points us to belief in Christ, recognizing that we receive His Spirit when we do that (New Life), and points us to love.  John is absolutely consistent in all of his writings.

If we are in Christ and love others, “in this world we are like Him”!  Love is a command – a law, yes?  One could say that.

A commenter at JGIG’s Facebook page asked this excellent question out of frustration regarding that very point:

Andrea wrote, “But I can’t love because it is a command – Because I am under grace. Do see how you guys make absolutely NO SENSE?!”

Andrea was referring to the quoting of this passage (HRMers have a hard time with this one):

1 John 3:21-24
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

It’s a great question!  If we’re not under Law, but after the Cross God commands us to love – sometimes referred to as the Law of Christ – what’s up with that?!

Here’s the really cool thing:  Love is a Fruit of the Spirit as well as a command.

Though love is a command, if you don’t do it, (which would be sin), you’re already forgiven.  If you are in Christ, you are not under law, and where there is no law, there is no sin (Romans 4:15, 5:13).  God makes clear to us that sin and the Law are dealt with from two angles: the sins of the world were forgiven at the Cross (John 1:29, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, 1 John 2:2 and others), and we who are in Christ are dead to the Law (Romans 7:1-4, Galatians 2:19).  Furthermore, as if that weren’t enough (!), God imputes the Righteousness of Christ to us (Romans 5:15-21).  There is nothing we can ‘do’ to improve or add to the righteousness of Christ that has been given to us in Christ.  These are the Truths of the Gospel that establish the position of the believer in the sight of God!

No Striving in Abiding

THAT SAID – If you are in Christ and are led by His Spirit, love will be a fruit produced in you.  We love because He first loved us and He lives in and through us.

Do fruit-producing plants strive to produce fruit?

No . . . they produce fruit because they are attached to the vine/tree/plant which nourishes them.

Fruit is the by-product of LIFE.

If you are alive in Christ and abiding in Him, allowing His Holy Spirit to live through you, love is an unavoidable by-product and fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14)!

Commanding the one in Christ to love is like commanding a person who has life in them to breathe because it’s a law.  If we have life in us, we automatically breathe – it’s something that we just DO.

If we are in Christ, loving others is something that we just DO. 

To command those in Christ to love is a ridiculously-unfair-in-our-favor-win-win-deal!

By resting in Christ and letting Him live His Life through us, God’s command to love is obeyed (John 15:12, 1 John 3:23) as a Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:18, 22-23) and the Law is fulfilled (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14).

That is Grace.

What about sin?

Part Two of the ‘Big Lie’
We hear constantly from those in the HRM, “How do we know what sin is, anyway?”  And out comes 1 John 3:4 - “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”  From there they live, breathe, and eat Torah Law, studying and attempting to keep Old Covenant Laws to avoid sinning.  (Anyone hear echoes of, “. . . your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. ?)  While saying that Jesus’ Blood is for our salvation, they leave Him at the curb and turn to Law-keeping for sanctification and sin reduction, not relying on and resting in the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would come to be our Comforter, Helper and Counselor, leading His Body into all truth (John 14:26, John 16:8-15), yet claiming that it is the Holy Spirit Who ‘empowers them’ to ‘keep’ Old Covenant Law.

Torah folk run to that which actually stirs up sin, that which the Bible says is the power of sin: the Law.  What should we do we do when we do sin (and those in both the Law and Grace ‘camps’ do sin!)?  Run back to that which we died to and the Bible says stirs up sin to try to straighten ourselves out (Romans 7:1-4)?  Is that what we who have a Perfect High Priest have to do?  Go back to an old, weak and useless system that made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19)?

Hebrews 4:14-16
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Instead, those who advocate Torah observance tell us that unless we live by Old Covenant Law, we are engaging in willful sin, implying to believers in Christ who walk in the love of Christ that the Holy Spirit Who lives in them will somehow lead them into sin if they’re not walking in Torah Law:

Galatians 5:13-18
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Wrapping up the ‘Big Lie’
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”  It was the birth of Gnosticism, and it is woven into every false belief system out there.  We are often told by those who are pursuing ‘their Hebraic Roots’, “Did God really say . . . “ when it comes to the New Covenant and that you can avoid sin if you can define it, ” . . . and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”  They have chosen the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil rather than the Tree of Life and they don’t even know it.

We are told we need to ‘dig deeper’, that Christianity has had it wrong for the past two thousand years, that their (HRMers) eyes have been opened, and that they now know how to identify sin and how to avoid it.  Some engage in the practice of consulting the writings of the sages and rabbis through the ages – most of whom have arrived at their teachings through the use of Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism).  Others have adopted teachings derived from those who have consulted the sages and rabbis and their mystical methods and they don’t even know it.

For the believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the methods utilized in the practice of Kabbalah are strictly off-limits.  Even a cursory examination of the practice of Kabbalah will confirm this.  I always marvel at the stand HRMers will take against perceived paganism in the celebrations of the Birth and Resurrection of Christ, but how they will not give the same examination to many of the beliefs in the HRM to which they adhere.  (For more on this topic, see, “Doublemindedness in the Hebrew Roots Movement – The Use of Kabbalah and Gematria”.)

Beyond that, the Bible is clear that the Law actually stirs up sin, the power of sin is the Law, and the Law produces fruit unto death (Romans 7, 1 Corinthians 15:56).  Grace and the Spirit, on the other hand, produce godliness, life, and the Fruits of the Spirit (Titus 2:11-14, Ephesians 2, Galatians 5).  Those who buy into the ‘Big Lie’ latch onto that which takes them to the exact opposite place they really want to be.

As for the HRM stream of thought in which any teacher you come across swims, after you evaluate what they teach by items 1 and 2 above, if they fail either one or both of those core issue tests, the rest is all suspect.  For example, many teachers in the HRM teach the ‘Two House Theology’ or the ‘Northern Kingdom’ bit.   That teaching is a re-hash of British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist. Most of it is taken straight from the Worldwide Church of God, aka Armstrongism.  If you feel you need to go past items 1 and 2 above, you will find alternate interpretations of teaching after teaching from all parts of the Bible by those in the Hebrew Roots Movement – most requiring much effort and linguistic contraption-making to get them to fit into the Law-keeping mold.

About fruit . . .
If you’ve found this site, the ‘nice’ Law-keeper in your life has either tried to teach you some things that seem really ‘off’ to you, or you have dared to challenge them and they’re not so nice anymore and, well, you’ve experienced the fruits of one who is walking in self-righteousness.  Jesus summed it up pretty succinctly:

Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

Holy Spirit Spidey Senses
Don’t discount when the Holy Spirit puts a check in your spirit.  Pay attention.  Get in the Word.  Look stuff up.  Check the language.  discernmentEspecially when someone is machine-gunning Scripture at you.  That’s just another technique that those in Law-keeping sects use – to fire off so much Scripture so fast that you don’t have time to check it out.  Like I said above, they establish false premises and then build upon those premises as fact, taking you to the next doctrinal place they want you to go.  This is especially true in when it comes to the re-definition of terms.  (For a more in-depth look at methods used by the HRM, see “Hebrew Roots Movement – Salesmanship 101″)

So take your time and really examine what anyone is teaching you!  Pray that God would guard your heart and mind and give you discernment.

May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

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Other articles of interest:

For more resources regarding the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movements see the Post Index and the Articles Page.  General study helps, discernment, and apologetics sites can be found HERE.  Good, foundational studies with a special emphasis on Old Covenant/New Covenant Truths can be found HERE.  Be sure to check out the Testimonies Page, as well.   Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

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172 Responses

  1. Well said. Very well said. Thank you for putting it in such a way that I can explain to others WHY my husband’s beliefs in the HRM are heretical and why they have damaged our relationship. Because most of them? just don’t get it. They don’t see why it’s so bad and wrong.
    Also, I like the website’s new face lift! Very ‘user-friendly’!

    • Thanks, Kathy. This post has actually been on my heart for a couple of years. Now just seemed like the time to post it. I’m praying for you and your husband, as well as others who have written me in similar situations.

      I’m glad you like the new format! I like it because I can find stuff more easily!

      Blessings to you, Kathy,
      -JGIG

  2. Your post inspired me to write a post on my blog about the problems with the “Jesus is our example” approach in the Seventh-day Adventist church. Thank you for so clearly stating the problems so clearly and thoroughly.

  3. Hi I would like to dialogue with you because I think I can add a few thoughts.

    I have walked with the Lord for 45 years and I remember the days when New Testament Christians stayed home on Sunday and had a sabbath rest and I remember when only the sinners were in bars drinking, dancing, smoking, cussing, cheating on taxes, cheating in business and having affairs. I remember when Godly people became missionaries and when Sunday schools actually taught us scripture and when preachers never divorced and never had affairs. I remember.

    The present teachings in most “grace filled” churches today is really that, “Christ set us free from the law therefore we are free to sin.”

    This is not up for discussion, there are hardly any Godly people out there any where. The majority of believers I know (and I have been in every kind of evangelical church for years and i don’t church hop- I am there every week) but the believers I have observed think nothing of walking in daily sins because “grace teaching” erased the Old and mostly New Testament teachings on sin.

    The reason Movements such as the Hebrew Roots Movement are growing is because anyone who has their EYES OPEN and their ears AVAILABLE can see that we need something to bring us back from the lawlessness that is present in today’s evangelical Baptist, Protestant, non-denominational churches.

    Let me remind you that the anti-Christ is called the man of LAW-LESS NESS. Paul called him this. Paul was a Jew and obedient to many of the laws even after he was saved. He said “Should I sin so that grace may abound? NO WAY!” Therefore sin upset Paul very much and sin for him would have been to not be following scripture from the Old Testament. Even if you want to argue that he only followed the New Testament it was not even written when he was here, so how could he be speaking about anything other than the Old testament? The Pauline Epistles were letters to specific churches about specific problems and we don’t even know what they had asked him. It was clear that he did not believe that grace gave a license to break the law and to sin. Paul believed the blood of Jesus and grace made his obedience very do-a-ble and with great success but he believed in obedience!

    Before Christ and grace… Paul who was an observant Jew knew that obedience was hard, after wards Paul could see that grace helped him to love. He could more easily love a parent, love a spouse and love a jailer or a neighbor. Paul did not compromise he believed in a lifestyle of love eased by grace.

    Nowhere does scripture say that Paul or the disciples did not believe in the Old Testament.

    Which verse takes grace and erases the Old Testament?

    Which verse erases the Ten Commandments?

    Which verse erases the blessings that come from obeying the Old Testament?

    I don’t know of one, do you? I think there isn’t one!

    Therefore we need to thoroughly examine the Old testament law and if we love God we need to try to obey as much of it as we can IF we want to gain a lifestyle of holiness and be His bride.

    We need something to bring us back to a state of Godly living!

    Most Christians today are not living as obedient Brides of Christ and their lifestyles are FAR from holy. Today’s believers have been told that it doesn’t matter what they do! They have been told the lie that grace means “do whatever you think is right based on what you feel will work for you.” Unfortunately this false understanding about grace teaching has birthed disobedience and compromise. The Body of Christ today is in bad shape and if a holy Jesus were to return would He find an obedient people?

    Let me remind you that Jesus never ripped the Old Testament out of the Bible, instead He ripped the veil that separated us from Him! But the Old Testament remained. He gifted us with salvation for free, but it was so that we could live the abundant life of John 10:10. He said if you LOVE me then keep my commandments! Which commandments was He talking about? The Old Testament was the only commandments that were written at the time!

    You may think you know something by bashing those who are trying to obey and marvel at your grace filled website but what is the answer you propose? Look at your life and examine that if the Lord returned for you today, are you happy with how you are living or would He find that you are living a life of compromise and disobedience to His commandments? Is your lifestyle holy or is it law-less? Do you take a sabbath rest on either Saturday or Sunday? Do you love and OBEY most and all of His commandments?

    Anything less, any teaching that leads to living outside of obedience is false. It you are walking in law-less-ness, you better watch out.

    • Hi Rachel,

      I read through your comment a couple of times, and have lots I could respond to, but as I read the last few paragraphs, the question that kept coming to mind that I’d like to ask you is what does it take to be righteous in God’s sight in your view? What must one do to be saved? What is it that makes one acceptable to God?

      -JGIG

      • JGIG, Thank you for your website and your post about HRM…exellent article! The people in this movement seem to focus on what is negative regarding Christianity (there is a lot of positive also). The focus should be on Christ Jesus and having a personal relationship with HIm … He is sufficient to supply all we need in our Christian walk. To accept God’s gift of Jesus Christ and understanding that Jesus came to demonstrate God’s love and power through the lives of every believers … pleases and glorifies God.

      • Obediance. If you love me, you will keep My commandments.

      • John 6:28-29
        28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

        29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

        1 John 3:21-24
        21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

    • A triple Amen to what you just said. We as a western society have no clue what it means to walk holy and to be ye separate. We don’t even know what it means to be in the world but not of the world. Maybe it’s time for most people to ask the Father to show them what they need to do in their own lives and then listen to what he says and then maybe show a little mercy and grace to others since you have been given those very gifts.

    • You are spot on in what you are saying, it is sad how the saints are behaving today. Our Churches imitate and act as the world does. God says in Romans 12 “not to conform to the World but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing or your minds. Then we will be able to test and approve what God’s will is-“

    • Rachel you are spot on ,, Yahweh has been showing us these teachers,, they boast about walking with the lord for 45 years..?? Yahweh is clear , he never changes.. thee best thing a “christian can watch is jim staleys identity crisis …and be very carefull if you say he doesnt work by Yahwehs spirit…the path is NARROW ,,is jesus narrow? no…lawlessness means torah less ness.. it is the very reason the serpant goes after Yahwehs elect in rev 2:17 those that hold the commands AND have the testimony of Yahshua…if you really want to break it down further .. jesus the name was not the name that saves ,, that is manmade.. TRADITION… Yahshua was his name GOD is a title NOT his name… ONLY those who have been called, can even begin to understand this truth,, believe me i myself followed jesus for 14 years and it was the father, who pointed us back to the torah.. not men…be VERY carefull what you say.. the cross itself is of HIGH pagan nature…,,i had went through an extreme deliverance when i got them out of my house.. Yahweh has blessed us so much since me and my wife are coverered by the blood of Yahshua,, and his torah written on our hearts… people cant accept it because they worship in VAIN , and follow their own traditions ..traditions of men… 45 years following christ..means youve never really asked Yahshua for his truth …Yahweh is the fathers name .. and Yahshua is the son..those that deny Yahshua came in the flesh is off error ,, not that those believe he is not god…..

      • doug –

        You are correct; God never changes. The ways in which He has dealt with mankind over the centuries has obviously changed, however. Was everyone commanded to build an ark? No. Was everyone commanded to smite the Philistines? No. One can come up with many, many examples where God dealt with different situations/people differently for HIS purposes. Is murder still wrong? Yes. Stealing? Yes. Anything that can be fulfilled by loving one another is what God now requires of those who are in Christ:

        Romans 13:8-14
        8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

        11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

        As for Jim Staley’s ‘Identity Crisis’, it’s full of false teaching a la doctrines derived from the now defunct cult, Worldwide Church of God (Herbert Armstrong). You can read my review of Staley’s teaching HERE

        About the name, ‘Jesus': Jesus is simply the English transliteration of the Son of God’s name. It represents WHO HIS IS; any power that the name of Jesus Christ has is found in WHO IT REPRESENTS – the power comes from Who Jesus is, not the language in which His name is spoken. For Yeshua’s name to be translated/transliterated into so many languages is actually a sign of great honor. Those who are in Christ KNOW Who He is; God incarnate, Saviour, God, and King. The ‘Sacred Name’ elitism is dealt with really well HERE

        About the Cross: No matter what the origins of the object of the cross, what Jesus did there makes it a symbol, spoken of in these Scriptures:

        1 Corinthians 1:17-25
        17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

        18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

        “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
        the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

        20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

        Philippians 3:18-21
        18 For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

        Galatians 6:12-16
        12 Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
        __________________

        I have no doubt that there is a great spiritual battle going on around you; you, however, have misread its nature, and it likely has nothing to do with the Cross of Christ.

        As for your evaluation of my faith and the faith of Christians who hold to the simple Truths of the Gospel, well, what can I say? You’re making judgements based on heresies to which you now adhere. I will not take your opinion seriously, as it is rooted in falsehoods built on deception.

      • doug,
        Yeshua is God. “In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God *and* the Word was God….The Word became flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotten of the Father.” In other words, the Word who is God became the flesh and blood human man, Yeshua. Prior to becoming the flesh and blood man Yeshua, Yeshua pre-existed as the Word of God. He was both God and with God–as in “Let *us* make man in *our* image.” Yah bless.

    • JGIG: You are beautiful. Jesus is Lord. He saved us because he can and because it was God’s good pleasure to do so. Keep up the good work. The HRM people who are proselytizing those living in grace most certainly are wolves in sheep’s clothing and have sneaked in to lead some astray. Thank you SO much for all of the LOVE, time and effort you have put into your website. I will see in heaven.

      • Aw, thanks, Eric! It was nice to see this pop into the comments queue right after I logged on tonight =o). I’m looking forward to meeting all the brothers and sisters I’ve met online and from all over the world through this endeavor.

        Grace and peace to you,
        -JGIG

    • THANK You. This is very well written. I agree wholeheartedly with your response

  4. We just left our church over Hebrew Roots infiltrating. We are so very saddened. Tried to reason for a year at least. Thank you so much for this.

  5. I am a former Hebrew Roots/Messianic believer, and the Lord gave me a terrifying wake-up call concerning this false movement. I have written an open letter to all Hebrew Roots/Messianic believers to warn them as the Lord warned me: An Open Letter to Hebrew Roots / Messianic Brethren

    • Hi Yaresh,
      I read you testimony today, wow our God is great and greatly to be praised! Thanks so much for sharing. I think I have a few more insights into the demonic attach and stronghold the HRM has on the people who get entangled in it’s snare. May I share a little of my story in hopes it will encourage you to pray for my wife.

      My wife was introduced into this movement several years ago. I had many red flags going of when I attended the congregation with her. I also made that very plain to her they were teaching heresy and was disaproving of her continuing to go. After several visits we stopped attending and began going to a wonderfull fellowship for several years that taught the Word of God and were growing and doing well until the that church desbanded for infidelity issues in the leadership.

      We stated attending a good bible teaching church but did not fell like it was where God needed us. A little over a year I felt lead to go to another fellowship and we began attending it together for less than a year. I continue to go to this day by myself.

      I thought my wifes dabling in the HRM was done away with until about a year ago one of her married freinds introduced and invited her to go to a bible study to learn once again about the HRM. My wife has repeatedly gone outside of my God given covering despite my warnings and sharing that what she is doing is wrong, This teacher of this “bible study”, which was not a bible study at all, but a conversion tacktic deployed by the false teacher to deceive my wife and undermine my authority as the husband and spiritual leader of this home. Her freind is estranged from her husband. So as you can see there was another man teaching two married women which is totally un-biblical. This man was confronted and the meeting were stopped.

      Well since then, my wife took it upon her self to stop going to church with me ( 4 months). Her not going with me is of great concern. I guess after reading your testimony I’m begining to wonder if this is a demonic assalt/attack on her which the HRM movements has given inroads into her life. I see her falling away from the Lord, doing strange things that are so not like her. She seems so distressed, disolutioned, depresses and un-happy around me. I am deeply concerned and worried for her.

      Please pray for her and our marraige relationship….it’s under so much attack. Pray the Lord well help me be faithfull to love her and give me great wisdom from the sciptures on verses that remind her who she is in Christ Jesus.

      I could share so much more. Thank you again for sharing your testimony of God rescuing and delivering you from the hedious HRM.

      May you grow in Grace and Knowlege of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

      In The Fathers Love, Blessings!

      Mark

      • Mark, I’ve re-read through these comments and wanted to encourage (though that may not be quite the right word) you that you are not alone in your situation with your wife. I hear far too often about marriages and families being broken up by the HRM – and women being encouraged to go against their husband’s wishes/leading is not uncommon. I’m aware of at least two HRM teachers who have usurped the husband’s role in the marriage relationship and given the reason that since the wife now ‘has the truth’ that she is now the spiritual head (8oO!!!)! Another, a husband, was counseled that at some point he may need to make a choice between YHWH and his wife/small children. Where to begin with what’s wrong with that!

        As for your belief that we are justified and sanctified by faith – there is some strong Scriptural support for that belief:

        Acts 26:15-18
        15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’“
        ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

        I think that Jesus Himself telling us that is pretty strong evidence to support your position on sanctification =o).

        We need to submit to Him – let Him live His Life through us via the Holy Spirit and keep it simple – love God, love others. I think the rest pretty much falls into place after that.

        Blessings, Mark, and I pray that you and your wife will again find unity in Christ.

        -JGIG

  6. Okay. First off, you must realize that, just like any other religious movements, there are many many different brands. This goes for HRM, Messianic-Judaism, Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc. etc. It is not really fair that you label all with issues you have of some.

    Now onto my points of contention:

    –They troll our churches and pick off those . . .–

    Well now. Seems you hit the ground running with the ugly rhetoric. As far as I know, no one “trolls” churches. Everyone I know has come to the realization on their own accord. Every single testimony that I have heard . . . they all say the same thing.

    Granted, their may be some who do what you say, but it is a very far cry from the all-inclusiveness, which you claim.

    –who are discontent with their church, wounded by their church–

    So if one does not agree with what their church leaders are saying, or are hurt by their brothers, they should just suck it up, and continue on? 2 John 1:7-11 says we should not even greet someone who gives false teachings and doctrine. 1 Timothy 6 says to flee from contradictory teachings and from those who have an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

    So are we to follow God’s word, or follow man, no matter what?

    –are rebellious in one way or another,–

    Rebellious against what, exactly? Against man’s dogma, or against the Word?

    I was born and raised a Baptist. We were taught that dancing and drinking any kind of alcohol was a sin. So I did my due diligence. Psalm 149:3 and 150:4 give examples of dancing in worship and praise of God. Jesus turned water into wine (ahem, alcohol) at Caanan, and he had wine (alcohol) at His last supper. So if the Bible is the word of God, that must mean that he approves of both activities (of course with regards to appropriateness of time and self control, as with everything in life, according to His word). The prohibitions were/are extra-biblical, and therefore, not a sin.

    I was considered rebellious by my brothers and sisters, and my dad, who was the pastor of the church. I was rebellious, against man made doctrine. I was right in line with God’s word. Being rebellious against man-made doctrine, is again, Biblically sound.

    — or simply have itchy ears.–

    There are people like that in every group. They only want to hear what makes them feel good. To assert that this is the fault of HRM is disingenuous at best.

    — Then there are those believers who succumb to the “If you really love God, you will . . . ” appeal, —

    Finish it off. If you really love God, you will keep his commandments. The words of Jesus affirm this. SO you are upset because people are succumbing to the words and teachings of Jesus?

    –Those who say that we must walk in Torah as Yeshua/Jesus Christ did are teaching that before the work of Christ, man was not able to keep the Law, but that after the work of Christ, enabled by His Holy Spirit, we are able to keep the Law —

    This is false. What most HRM teachers say is that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life. Man could not, and can never, completely keep the law. In OT times, if one sinned (broke the law), they were dead. With the sacrifice of Jesus, if one sins, His blood gives us grace from the death penalty.

    –We cannot. It is not possible. Jesus Christ is God. He is perfect. He is sinless. We are not God —

    Indeed. But you totally miss the point. Even the basic meaning of Christianity is to be Christ-like. WWJD. Remember that? Jesus followed the Law. He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. To live it perfectly. If we are to try our best to emulate Jesus (which we should do, according to Paul), than we should try and live as he did. We will never be perfect, but that does not mean to not even try.

    –To say/think/believe that we can walk as Jesus walked in the way of the Law is folly,–

    No one believes that we can be a perfect imitator of Jesus. But even Paul tells us we should try our hardest to do as such.

    — and not at all how Jesus Himself commanded us to walk!–

    WHAT?

    Matthew 23:1-3 – “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.'”

    2 Timothy 3:16 – “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…”

    Matthew 5:19 – “Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

    Jesus Himself, commands us to follow the law to the best of our ability. Any deviations are covered by grace, instead of death.

    –We hear constantly from those in the HRM, “How do we know what sin is, anyway?” —

    I have never heard anyone HRM ask this, but I will address it anyways.

    1 John 3:4 – Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

    Oh my. Sin is breaking, violating, disobeying and/or transgressing the law. Torah = law. So sin is when one violates Torah.

    –From there they live, breathe, and eat Torah Law.–

    Yes, because that is what Jesus said to do.

    — While saying that Jesus’ Blood is for our salvation, they leave Him at the curb and turn to Torah for sanctification,–

    No, Jesus is not left at the curb. The Torah sanctifies nothing. Jesus’ grace is our sanctification. We live by Torah, because that is what God commanded, and re-commanded through Jesus. Transgressions on Torah (sin) is covered by the blood of Jesus.

    –not relying on the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would come to be our Helper and Counselor, leading His Body into all truth–

    We do rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us in what is right for our lives. Another ridiculous statement.

    –Instead, those who advocate Torah observance tell us that unless we live by Torah, we are engaging in willful sin–

    Well, technically, according to 1 John 3:4, those that do not follow Torah, ARE engaging in willful sin.. That does not mean that they are not going to Heaven, or anything like that. They are God’s child. They are covered by grace, But yet, because they failed to follow the commandments, they will be the least in Heaven, according to Jesus (Matthew 5:19).

    — We are told by those who are studying ‘their Hebrew Roots’, “Did God really say . . . “ —

    No, we are discerning, which Paul, quite bluntly, tells us to do.

    Or would you prefer to follow blindly?

    –when it comes to the New Covenant or Who Jesus Christ really is (many say He is the ‘Living Torah’).–

    Did Jesus not follow Torah (the law) perfectly? Is He not living? If you answered yes to both, then you admit that Jesus is the living Torah.

    –For the believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the methods utilized in the practice of Kabbalah are strictly off limits. Even a cursory examination of the practice of Kabbalah will confirm this. I always marvel at the stand HRMers will take against perceived paganism in the celebrations of the Birth and Resurrection of Christ, but how they will not give the same examination to many of the beliefs in the HRM to which they ascribe. (For more on this topic, see, “Doublemindedness in the Hebrew Roots Movement – The Use of Kabbalah and Gematria”.)–

    By following your link, I see that you place many things that are not Kabbalah into it.

    Gematria is not Kabbalah. That is part of the Hebrew language. As such, even Revelation tells us “those that have wisdom are to count the number of the beast.”

    Secondly, PaRDeS is not strictly Kabbalah. The Parables that Jesus spoke . . . the same ones tha even every Christian hears in Sunday School . . . were spoken with PaRDeS. Furthermore, to teach them, one must use PaRDeS.

    — For example, many teachers in the HRM teach the ‘Two House Theology’ or the ‘Northern Kingdom’ bit. That teaching is a re-hash of British Israelism with a Hebrew Roots twist. Most of it is taken straight from the Worldwide Church of God, aka Armstronism. —

    Actually, if you would do your diligence, you would find that two-house is scripturally sound, and has NOTHING to do with British-Israelism. Even Jews, including the government of Israel, believe that there is a lost 10 tribes out there somewhere. Heck, Jesus Himself said that He came for the lost tribes.

    Furthermore, Ezekiel 37 and Romans 11 confirm the teaching of Believers being grafted into Israel.

    Armstrongism was replacement theology. Two house is anti-replacement. Black and white, dear.

    If you do not with to see the truth set before you, that is fine. It is your life, and you must deal with the consequences of your choices, just as I must deal with mine. But for the love of all that is good, please do some basic research before you decide to slander a whole group of people who are trying to follow the Word of God.

    ~~Steven

    • Hi Steven,

      Welcome to JGIG.

      Yes, I know that there are wide and varied practices and beliefs in the Hebrew Roots Movement. I actually find that kind of humorous, since one of the big things in the HRM is that they say they are getting back to THE Way and rejecting the ‘many denominations’ that have become churchianity. As for who is susceptible to the teachings of the HRM, I stand by what I wrote based what those who have been in the HRM have told me and my observations of those in the HRM that I know.

      You wrote: “Jesus Himself, commands us to follow the law to the best of our ability. Any deviations are covered by grace, instead of death.”

      No, He did not.

      You support the idea that Jesus is the Living Torah. He is not. He is the Living God.

      You deny that Gematria is part of Kabbalah. You are mistaken. Numbers obviously have significance in the Scriptures. There is a sense of great order and consistency in God’s Word, and some of that is brought about by God’s use of numbers. The Hebrew alef-bet also contains a numeric system because Hebrew did not have a separate numeric system. I do understand that. Where I draw the line is where values are placed on words/phrases/passages to ‘unlock hidden meanings’ in the Scriptures. That is Gematria and it is a foundational component of Kabbalah.

      PaRDeS is also something to avoid. One can read why HERE.

      You also stand by the Two House Doctrine and exhort me to do my ‘diligence’ about the teaching. I have, and it is a false teaching. It’s based on false premises and the picking and applying of Scriptures where they don’t fit. You are correct, Armstrongism is replacement theology; Two House theology is replacement theology on steroids, claiming that the Body is ethnic Israel and not only spiritual Israel.

      You wrote: “If you do not with to see the truth set before you, that is fine. It is your life, and you must deal with the consequences of your choices, just as I must deal with mine. But for the love of all that is good, please do some basic research before you decide to slander a whole group of people who are trying to follow the Word of God.”

      I’m a redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb, cleansed from sin believer in Jesus Christ. Why would you attempt to make me fearful about who I am in Christ?

      As for your charge that I haven’t done ‘basic research’, well, I’ll let the reader make a judgement call on that.

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

      • Simple stuff here, JGIG.

        He did, in fact, say to follow the law. Jesus said “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” Jesus is God. If you love God, keep His commandments…the law.

        Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the light.

        Exodus 18:20 shows that Torah is the way. Psalm 119:142 shows that Torah is truth. Deuteronomy 32:47 shows that Torah is life.

        John tells us that Jesus was the word (Torah), and the word became flesh.

        So we should avoid all of Jesus’ teachings? They were all in Pardes.

        As for the two house teaching, then please explain the two sticks. Please explain the prophet Hosea. Please explaine how Israel was exported east, but shall return from all four corners. Finally, please let us know by which gate you plan on entering the kingdom through. When you get done with that, I have some more proofs.

        –Steven

      • >>>>> To your first point: Jesus did say, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” Here’s where He said it:

        John 15:12-17
        12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

        Further, Romans 13:8-10 says:
        8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

        >>>>> To your second point: In the context of the Old Covenant, the Law was the way in which Israel should walk, the truth as was revealed at the time, and life in the flesh (to willfully disobey resulted in the punishment of death). Old Covenant Law was a covenant of the flesh.

        You err when you say that John says that Jesus was the Torah. He did no such thing. You’ve swallowed the HRM line that ‘Word’ in John 1:1 means the written words of God. John chapter 1 internally proves that concept to be wrong.

        John uses the Greek word logos (the essence of God) in John 1 for ‘word’, not nomos (the Law of God). And John does use the Greek word nomos in vs. 17 when referring to the Law, so he obviously knew there was a difference in meanings between the words logos and nomos, and purposefully used each word in specific ways in his writings.

        In fact, just a couple of verses apart, this is how the language plays out:

        John 1:14-17
        14 The Word [logos] became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

        15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law [nomos, commonly used specifically regarding Mosaic Covenant Law - evident here in this case as nomos is indicated that it was given through Moses] was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

        So at least two things become clear from this passage:
        – Law (Torah) was not from the beginning, Jesus Christ was, and
        – Jesus Christ is not Torah (Law), as they are distinct and separate according to John.

        >>>>> To your third point: The question is flawed. You asked, “So should we avoid all of Jesus’ teachings?” That question is akin to the infamous conundrum, “So have you quit beating your wife?” If you can frame a proper question, feel free to give it another go.

        >>>>> Your reference to PaRDes: See Hebrew Roots Movement – The Use of Midrash. PaRDeS is part of Jewish Mysticism. The term, PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of these four approaches, which are:

        •Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — “plain” (simple) or the direct meaning.
        •Remez (רֶמֶז) — “hints” or the deep (allegoric) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
        •Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (seek) — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
        •Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in gold) — “secret” (mystery) or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

        PaRDeS is a method used in Midrash, a subjective interpretive study method, examined in the link above. When one uses a midrash (PaRDes being a method in midrashic study) as a lens through which to interpret Scripture, based on the information in the link above, it is likely that that person using midrash/PaRDeS is seeking to mold Scripture to a predetermined opinion or belief system, rather than seeking to mold their opinion or belief system to what Scripture actually says. Even if one is sincere in their desire to seek truth using midrash, the method of midrash is fundamentally flawed, from its subjective nature (not to mention its rabbinic prejudice) to the possibility of mystical influence.

        >>>>> As to your reference to the Two House doctrine: Two House theology is an attempt to limit God’s people to the twelve tribes of Israel, yet the Scriptures clearly say that Jesus came for all, and that salvation is available to all who put their faith and trust in Him. As for what gate I’ll enter in, IF the Jerusalem descending from the Heavens in Rev. 21 is indeed a physical city, the Blood of Christ will grant me entrance, not being of a tribe of Israel, much like a ticket gets one into Yankee stadium (the label above the gate entrance), yet does not require one to actually be a Yankee =o).

        Consider Revelation 21:22-27
        22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

        Steven, fair warning: I will entertain questions you may genuinely have here, but will not let you try to make this a platform for teaching HRM doctrine. I have also removed the link to your website on each of your comments, so if you’re looking to increase traffic to a website that teaches what I consider to be false doctrine, that’s not going to happen.

        In Christ,
        -JGIG

    • I agree

  7. I am checking out the HRM and have been studying scripture to come to my own conclusion. I have yet to come to a conclusion. I Love God, I declare my salvation is in Christ alone and the work He completed at Calvary. In response to JGIG and Steven’s discussion two scriptures come to mind:

    – the first is in response to whether or not Jesus is the Living Torah:

    John 1:1 ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” and if you continue to read the good book; John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    I would say this verse clearly states Jesus is God, He is Living, and He is the word; therefore He is the Living Word!

    – the second is in response to “Jesus Himself, commands us to follow the law to the best of our ability. Any deviations are covered by grace, instead of death.” I can’t find a scripture that supports this or discredits this statement directly. The one scripture that does come to mind is this: 1 John 5:1-4 “1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

    I would like for whoever is reading this post to focus on verse 3: “FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS”.

    What commandments are JEsus talking about? Well if Jesus is the Word, I would conclude this means ALL of the commandments. Not just some.

    From what i have determined thus far about the HRM is they believe through Christ we are saved, and that’s it. I was introduced to HRM this past spring (2011) and have been studying scripture since. If anything, my friend who is involved in this movement, has prompted me to study scripture; and that is Good. Today’s church is Scripturally Illiterate, immediate to believe whatever teaching their pastor or denomonation holds true, without studying what the Bible actually says for themselves.

    As i continue down this journey, I will hold firm to the truths of God’s word. I pray that the HOly Spirit will give me discernment to know only His truths.

    Nathan

    • Hi Nathan,

      Welcome to JGIG =o).

      I pray that God provide you with wisom and disernment as you consider who you are in Christ. That is the key – who you are in Christ. May I suggest that you read the most recent post at JGIG, found HERE, and also the recommended reading links provided a the end of that post?

      Blessings and prayers,
      -JGIG

    • “And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT: That you believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another as He gave us commandment.”-1 John 3:23

      • Every now and then I hunt through comments to find something and I see something I should have replied to but didn’t =o).

        SPOT ON, wateredseeds!

        Jesus Himself said this also in John 6:28-29:
        28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

        29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

        And John re-affirms it in 1 John 3:21-24 (inclusive of the verse you posted):

        21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

        24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

        God really is clear about what His commands are in Christ! \o/

        Blessings,
        -JGIG

    • I would like to give an example of how little people in the church understand…..Most think the gospel means that Jesus came to save us…..WRONG and you ask why, here it is ,why did Jesus himself say he was here to share the gospel. He was not dead , he had not died so the church needs to find out what the gospel means because if you are up for the challenge, it is the gospel that is in the old testament. Look for it, seek and you find ask and it will be given to you.

      • John 3:16-17
        16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

        Luke 19:9-10
        9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.”

        Romans 1:16-17
        16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

        1 Corinthians 15:1-11
        1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

        3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

        9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

  8. I’m so happy to be saved by grace and can do anything I want since I’m secure in Jesus. These HRM people try to tell me I cannot serve other God’s, commit murder, commit adultry , steal, etc. They think they are saved by following the Law. I am so thankful to be saved by Grace and not by works. Thank you Jesus and please return quickly since I’m not prepared to face any hardships.

    • Hi Gary,

      Welcome to JGIG =o).

      Where do you see the Scriptures supporting your satire?

      Where do you see the Body of Christ supporting your satiristic assertions?

      Where do you see anything written at JGIG that condones murder, adultery, theft, etc.?

      If one is walking in the Law of Love is one murdering? Committing adultery? Stealing? You might want to take a look at The Law of Christ – Defined and Defended to get a grasp on what Jesus and the apostles taught about how we should then live as those in Christ.

      Your sarcasm is noted. You think yourself a clever soul, don’t you . . .

      I’m thankful for HRM folk like you who act as apologists for the movement . . . you demonstrate the fruits much better than I could ever communicate them. Thank you for your comment.

      -JGIG

  9. I cannot believe that you run a website on things you hear from people and observe from them! Your facts on these matters are so off line, you stand and judge people with your bible under your arm. Just remember, the bible says those who lead people astray and teachers who bring souls to the fall will be judged harsher. I am a christian baptist, your theories dont even fit into our belief system, would you like to call us a sect aswell? I have been listening to a lot of teachings from bill, jim staley and brad scott. I think maybe you havent been, because whats written on your site is definately not coming out of their mouths! your facts are off the beaten track, rather start a positive uplifting site, rather than bashing people who believe in the bible, the all inspired Word of our Saviour and King

    • Hey there, ilze,

      Welcome to JGIG ??

      I am aware of what the Bible says about those who teach the Word. That’s why I am very careful about the issues I choose to write about. Lots of prayer and study goes into each post.

      You wrote, “I am a christian baptist, your theories dont even fit into our belief system, would you like to call us a sect as well? ”

      All I can say to that is that I went to a Baptist High School for five years and use a Baptist curriculum for homeschooling 5 of our 7 children, which gives me a pretty good idea what Baptists believe. On the core issues of the faith, we agree. Perhaps it is you who is not well grounded in your own faith and that is why you have found the likes of Cloud, Staley, and Scott so bewitching? I don’t mean that to sound harsh, but those who have a good foundation about who they are in Christ are less likely to buy what these guys are selling. The second most-searched term that folks use to find this site is “Jim Staley false teacher”, right behind people looking for this site by name. And I don’t even have any articles here about specific teachers! People write in with comments about their experiences or their family’s experiences with these teachers.

      You are right about one thing: what’s written here is definitely not coming out of the mouths of those teachers! Amen to that! If there is one post I could get you to read here, it would be, Hebrew Roots Movement – Salesmanship 101 and its comments. If you are honest with yourself, I think you will see that you may be in the midst of that process.

      Grace and peace to you in your journey,
      -JGIG

      • Amen to that. I was saved when I was 7 years old. I’ll never forget that time in my life. I was attending CC Costa Mesa…for those of you who are aware of that church here in Southern California. I remember kids in my Sunday School class were memorizing Psalm 23. My Dad had gotten saved in March 1977…and there was a lot of strife between he and my Mom. My Dad was a boozer, biker, etc. His life changed. Mom didn’t like him before…and now, she didn’t know what to do with her Biker turned Christian husband. Mom eventually got saved herself. I remember late 1978…asking the Lord to come into my life and be my Savior.

        It was slow growth for many years…but I think God used that time to really implant His word in my heart.

        I have some dear friends who had a very dysfunctional family on several levels…and whether or not they were Christians is beyond me. I do believe they were ‘aware’ of salvation…but never fully made a committment to Christ…but I do know they are WAY into the HRM movement..and it’s caught me quite off guard…because it’s contrary to how the Gospel teaches….and they’ve become quiet mean, to say the least. I actually think they have always been ‘mean’…but now hey have ammunition for it….and feel like they are proclaiming ‘truth’. I told them I don’t have issue with them celebrating Hannukah or Yom Kippur or the Sabbath day, but they’ve gone so far as to say I am ‘lost’ because I don’t…On Facebook, one of them actually posted on a Saturday “Keep the Sabbath Holy”. I agreed and said, “Everyday should be holy for that matter.” They came UNGLUED! They started e-yelling at me saying what I posted was unscriptural….and I said, “Um, as a Christian, I wake daily and read Gods Word…I seek holiness every day….is that wrong?” And the Sabbath? It’s legalistic to say it MUST be observed on Saturday. Holiness and the Sabbath are a state of mind…not a legalistic time clock. They have gone so far as to tell me that I it is evil to ‘worship’ on Sun-day, as they write it because Sun-day is in regard to the ‘sun god’….all the days of the week are in reference to astrology for much…and so Saturday is in reference to Saturn…so how is it that ‘worship’ on Saturday is much more OK than Sunday…and really, worship should be EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK….

      • Hi David,

        Welcome to JGIG! Thanks for your comments. Hey, I have a facebook page for this site, too. It’s picked up there in the past couple of months. Feel free to join us there: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Joyfully-Growing-In-Grace/248822244000?ref=tn_tnmn

        Grace and peace,
        -JGIG

      • So… Keeping Sabbath on the day that He said to is legalistic? Obeying the command of God is NEVER legalistic. Is honoring your mother or father legalistic? How about stealing, lying, or adultery?

        Heck, by your definition, it is legalistic to worship God.

        And before you use Romans 4:15, please look at the context of the verse.

        As for Sun-day, your friend has a point…

        Justin Martyr – ” For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn, and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples…”

        Tertullian – “… suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is well-known that we regard Su, nday as a day of joy.”

        There are many more quotes, which a simple google search will find. The Romans changed the names of the days and months to fit their pantheon. This is fact. Because the Sabbath falls on the day of Saturn does not mean we are worshiping Saturn. On the converse, church fathers are quoted changing the day pig worship in veneration of the sun God.

      • It’s not legalistic to keep the Sabbath, or even the whole Law of Moses, IF this is what the Spirit is leading you to do. It IS legalistic to demand that all believers everywhere keep the Sabbath in spite of being born again, and dead to the Law, and under the Spirit. If you’ve calculated and reasoned that you ought to follow the Law, in obedience to God, then you’re listening to your reasoning, not to God, which is not true obedience.

      • Ok then. where does God rescind the law (which He said was perpetual and everlasting)?

      • God rendered Old Covenant Law obsolete in the work of Christ:

        Hebrews 8:13
        13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

        The Law was rendered obsolete in Christ; demonstrably so when the Temple fell and was never rebuilt.

      • Except that Hebrews 8 is contextually talking about the priesthood. Covenant is italicized, therefore it was inserted by translators.

        We can deduce, using context cluse and scripture to verify scripture, that the priesthood (which includes yhe now fallen temple, btw) is no longer needed, as Jesus is our priest, and our bodies are the temple. The new rendered the old obsolete, but the covenant still stands. There is still a priest, and still a temple. Therefore, there is still a law.

        Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 confirm this.

      • No, Hebrews 8 is not talking about just the Levitical priesthood. Hebrews 8:13 (13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.), follows a quote of Jeremiah 31:31-34, which does not speak of the priesthood, but of the Old Covenant as a whole:

        31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
        “when I will make a new covenant
        with the house of Israel
        and with the house of Judah.
        32 It will not be like the covenant
        I made with their forefathers

        when I took them by the hand
        to lead them out of Egypt,
        because they broke my covenant,
        though I was a husband to them,”
        declares the LORD.
        33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
        after that time,” declares the LORD.
        “I will put my law in their minds
        and write it on their hearts.
        I will be their God,
        and they will be my people.
        34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
        or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
        because they will all know me,
        from the least of them to the greatest,”
        declares the LORD.
        “For I will forgive their wickedness
        and will remember their sins no more.”

        That tells of a covenant totally different from Mosaic Covenant Law, as God promises to forgive wickedness and remember their sinS no more. This speaks of the cleansing from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9 – 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.) That’s a New Covenant! Nothing like the Old, where sins were forgiven on a sin-as-you-go basis.

        Before you tell me that that the covenant referred to in Jer. 31 is only for Israel, let’s look at Isaiah 42, which tells of the Promised Seed, promised to all mankind at the Fall:

        Isaiah 42:1-7
        1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
        my chosen one in whom I delight;
        I will put my Spirit on him
        and he will bring justice to the nations.
        2 He will not shout or cry out,
        or raise his voice in the streets.
        3 A bruised reed he will not break,
        and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
        In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
        4 he will not falter or be discouraged
        till he establishes justice on earth.
        In his law the islands will put their hope.” 5 This is what God the LORD says—
        he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
        who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
        who gives breath to its people,
        and life to those who walk on it:
        6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
        I will take hold of your hand.
        I will keep you and will make you
        to be a covenant for the people
        and a light for the Gentiles,
        7 to open eyes that are blind,
        to free captives from prison
        and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

        So we see there that God was always going to provide covenant for the Gentiles, too =o). Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 are not referring to an either Gentiles or Israel covenantal deal, but a both/and deal; salvation in Christ for all mankind.

        Ezekiel 36 speaks of God’s faithfulness for His purposes in the midst of Israel’s repeated rebellion and idolatry because they could not/would not keep the Law given to them at Sinai. That chapter also says this:

        Ezekiel 36:22-23
        22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

        That passage does not support your assertion that Hebrews is only talking about the priesthood in the Law being made obsolete. What I see there is two-fold:
        1) God will reveal Himself to all mankind through Israel, for His purposes and glory despite their bad behavior, and
        2) It reads like a precursor to this verse:

        John 4:21-24
        21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

        Beyond those realities, there is no Scripture that allows the priesthood to be separated from the Old Covenant Law. The letter to the Hebrews does clearly specify this, however:

        Hebrews 7:12
        12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

        Steven, you’re so close, brother . . . you wrote, “We can deduce, using context cluse [sic] and scripture to verify scripture, that the priesthood (which includes yhe [sic] now fallen temple, btw) is no longer needed, as Jesus is our priest, and our bodies are the temple. The new rendered the old obsolete,”

        There is a New Covenant, ratified by the Blood of Christ shed at the Cross. It does have a new Priest, Jesus Christ, who when His work was done, sat down (something that priests NEVER did). Our bodies are the Temple of God, collectively making up the Body of Christ. Now for the last piece of the puzzle: New Priesthood, New Law. We are under a New Covenantal Law, the Law of Christ, the Law of Love. Again,

        Romans 13:8-10
        8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

        James 2:8-10
        8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

        Blessings,
        -JGIG

      • just wanted to let you know, we get here from that search term because we enjoy apologetics and being well-versed and able to defend our faith. I think you should be humble, and at least consider for a moment that it may be you who is not well grounded in your own faith, if you are going to be insinuating that about others.

        you think you have the one, truth, but you do not appear to have a comparable dose of humility to match.

        As Jim Staley DOES teach, both are required to have living faith.

        You lost me when you said that Jesus is not the living Word of God. That’s what you said a few posts up, that Jesus is not the living Torah. That alone is cause for me to be concerned.

        Regardless of your own personal faith (and any planks therein), you have pointed out at best a spec in the eye of a fellow ‘believer’ who actually does have the humility you seem to not express. You have also conveniently ignored the bulk of his teachings, and how they are actually more ‘Christian’ than what christians today believe.

        The church is dead and everyone knows it. Addiction is rampant and there is not many who are preaching against this gospel of grace. We are called to GO AND SIN NO MORE, and it is Christ’s own simple words which fly in the face of all that educated knowledge you are slinging around. Real seekers of truth will see this. Real seekers of truth research the enemy. That is why I am here. Would the REAL false teacher please stand up!

        Grace and peace to you brother, shalom —

      • Hi notoriouspreacher,

        You have a beef here because I’ve come out against Jim Staley, saying that he teaches that humility is required to have a living faith. As thoroughly demonstrated in the last section of this page Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley, Jim Staley is anything but humble. His own words condemn him; I have no desire to discuss that here, and that is why there are not open comments on that page. Don’t try to bring your disagreement in the back door – not gonna fly. The other page is posted on a take it or leave it basis.

        As for ‘specks’, Staly is sporting a full log cabin, and as a teacher who publishes lots in the public domain, it is not inappropriate to examine what he teaches. As my take on Staley’s teachings are also published in the public domain, you may also examine that. Opinion noted =o).

        As for the Church being ‘dead and everyone knows it’, you need to get out more! You write, “Addiction is rampant and there is not many who are preaching against this gospel of grace.”

        The local bodies where that is happening is where Law or a mixture of Law and Grace is being preached. Why?

        People sin under Law; people sin under Grace.

        Yet according to the Scriptures, ‘Team Law’s’ approach has the exact opposite of the desired effect (a reduction in sinning):

        Law was given to increase sinning:

        Romans 5:20
        20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.

        Law stirs up sinning:

        Romans 7:7-8
        7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

        Law produces death:

        Romans 7:9-11
        9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.

        Law produces fruit unto death:

        Romans 7:5
        5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

        Law is the power of sin:

        1 Corinthians 15:56
        56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

        What do Grace and the Spirit produce (Team Grace)?

        Grace teaches us godliness:

        Titus 2:11-14
        11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It [grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

        The Spirit produces life:

        Romans 8:5-6
        5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; (see also Romans 12:1-2, 2 Corinthians 10:4-6, and Ephesians 6:14-17)

        The Spirit produces the Fruits of the Spirit:

        Galatians 5:22-25
        22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

        (Excerpted from Grace or Law? How Then, Shall We Live?)

        Yes, Christ exhorts us to go and sin no more, but there is not an ‘or else’ attached to it like with the Law. He, Grace, teaches us to say no to ungodliness. There’s so much more, but I already wrote about it in the link above =o).

        You wrote, “Real seekers of truth will see this. Real seekers of truth research the enemy. That is why I am here. Would the REAL false teacher please stand up!”

        Actually, real seekers of Truth study Truth. They do so primarily to walk in Light and Truth, and secondarily to recognize what is false when it comes along. You can read more about that here: Hebrew Roots Movement – Are They Judaizers?

  10. Ilze this site is not about bashing The bible, it about exposing people who bring the Mosaic law on equal grounds of salvation.

    instead of posting a rant, maybe read the articles .

    maybe you should check out 8day for life or for The love of true or this site

    http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#faqs

    8day for life, The love of truth and seek God are all run by people who were in the hebrew rights movement for over 10 years and agree with this site.

    • Thanks, Travis =o).

      Those suggested links are good resources. Seekgod.ca is not run by a former HRMer, though. But she has done a ton of research into the movement and some of its main teachers.

      8thday and ForTheLoveOfTruth both were in the HRM, though I’m not sure for how long. It was a number of years.

      Sometimes I just don’t know where to start in a response to a comment like ilze’s. He/She is a person who has obviously not read much here, or they would not have posted what they did. Thanks for exhorting ilze to read instead of rant =o).

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

  11. After recently viewing a piece by Jim Staley posted on FB berating the celebrating of Christmas and Easter, the hair on the back of my neck instantly stood up and my first thought was “cult”. My mother is a fanatical Jehovah Witness for 37 yrs. They too live by the law and Jim sounded too much like mom. So today I did my research and “Praise GOD”, I found your sight. Suspicions confirmed thank you so much. I also posted your link to my FB account. Please keep up the good work. We are in the last of days and the cults are on the increase disguised better then ever before!
    God Bless,
    Terry

    • Thanks, Terry, and welcome to JGIG!

      It is amazing how many similarities there are between Jehovah’s Witnesses and even Mormon theology sprinkled in the Law keeping sects.

      Thanks for posting a link at FB. I have a JGIG page there, but cannot post anything there. I’ve been locked out for a couple of months now, with no response from FB as to why. grrrrr

      Oh well, God knows =o). Thanks for the kind words and thanks for your willingness to have a discerning heart!

      Every blessing,
      -JGIG

      • Your account is very hard to access. I tried contacting FB on your behalf but with no success! It appears your account may have been hacked. Gee, I guess that wouldn’t surprise you. I have experienced being hacked in the past on U-tube when I stepped on the toes of The Acorn ppl. The Hebrew Root Movement has no doubt done the same too you. I would be very persistent (daily) about contacting FB concerning this matter. In the future I suggest a password so complicated you need to write it down. This is what I have resorted to!
        God Bless,
        Terry

      • Hey Terry – I was able to do a search on FB for joyfully growing in grace with spaces and it came right up for me. I can read everything there – I just cannot post anything. MOST annoying!

        Thanks for trying to contact FB on my behalf!

        -JGIG

      • Just a heads up . . . I am able to post again on my fb account. It was an IP address issue. All better now =o).

        -JGIG

  12. It is amazing to me that people can focus on the “singular” verses that supposedly support their viewpoint. Jesus said over and over again when talking about the commandments, that the fulfillment of that is to love one another. And there is no new commandment given. It is the sustaining factor of the believer. 1 John 3:23 tells us that we must BELIEVE ON HIM, AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER. That is His commandment. There is no other to attain salvation. Whoever confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord and believes that God has raised Him from the dead, they are saved. How can we so quickly turn away from the gospel that was preached to us unto salvation. The purpose of the law is to CONVICT US. It shows us sin. And then we believe on Him who died for that sin. Going forward from that we are to love each other. That is the fulfillment of the law.

  13. HRM does not teach anything different than what the Bible teaches. The article for which I am responding spent very little time on actual scripture and more time on trying to make certain teachers suspicious.

    (Balance of comment deleted for two reasons: 1. The premise stated is false; lots of Scripture is referred to/written in the OP and little time is given to certain teachers. If Julio had thoroughly read the OP, he would have realized that individual teachers are NOT the target here, but teachings that are contrary to the Gospel ARE the target here, and 2. Julio violated the comments policy by using this platform as an opportunity to pontificate about the Law ‘keeping’ paradigm.

    Julio, here’s the link to the Comments Policy here at JGIG: Comments Policy Give it a read and you’re welcome to try again.

    Grace and Peace,
    -JGIG)

  14. I pray first of all that you can see that like those you are pointing the finger at you are also doing the same thing. I am sorry to have to make that point but it is a matter of making sure the log is OUT of your eye before going to fix the log that is in another eye. I have been a part of everyone of the groups you have mentioned, the church, Messianic, Hebrew roots and I agree that none of these groups have all the answers. I am now settling into what I believe Yahshua / Jesus has wanted all along. I seek to know Him with every fiber of my being.If you want to judge me because I use his Hebrew name then know that he was born a Hebrew man. I know that much is spoken about keeping the law in these groups but what I have found is that the church keeps the 10 commandments (where is the difference). I know that the more intimate I become with my savior the less likely I am to break the commandments. I will fail as we all will but he has from the time Adam and Eve sinned showed us mercy and grace that not one of us deserve. I think it is YHVH ( GOD’s name in Hebrew) that has said in the scriptures that HE HIMSELF will deal with the false teachers and the false prophets. It is our calling to be innocent as doves and wise as serpents so we each one have to do that in obedience. I will not judge for I trust my heavenly Father to be the only true judge that knows the intent of the heart.I just ask all of the people who are so quick to make these judgements to instead live and walk in the truth of our Messiah so that he can be seen and the darkness that may be in these people will be brought to light on the terms of THE MOST HOLY ONE. Let’s seek the ability to walk in truth and spirit and let Yahshua do the work that needs to be done in the hearts of every man. Thank you to those who receive this with an open, soft GOD fearing heart.

    • Hi JL,

      Welcome to JGIG.

      I think if you read more here, especially what is written in the sidebars under ‘What JGIG Is’ and What JGIG Is Not’ you will have a better idea of where my heart is. I’ll just leave it at that =o).

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

  15. You are a idiot !!! Wake up!!! Love to debate this or any issue with you

  16. The final comment I will leave on your site is this. The Church defiles our Messiah by celebrating Easter which is a pagan holiday (of course you don’t have the eyes to see the truth here. The church celebrates christmas ( the birthday Tamuz another pagan God) You people continue to keep your eyes closed to the things that show me just how much you love the Messiah when the very things you do defile his Holiness. Scripture is very clear when it says that we are to “come out of her MY PEOPLE”. I can not and will not listen to people defile the holiness of YHVH and Yahshua. Remember that everytime you write and tell people not to follow the Law (instruction) of YHVH it would be better that you be cast into the sea with a stone around your neck. I certainly would be walking in great fear by saying that people who obey the instruction of YHVH are a cult. I truly pray that you would ask the spirit of THE ALMIGHTY to give you spiritual vision to see what you are doing to his sheep.

    • J.L.,

      The Church, the Body of Christ, does not celebrate pagan holidays. Not all in the Body celebrate the Birth and Resurrection of Christ, but those who do are in no way worshipping pagan gods. To state that they do is simply a lie. In 2011, when Hanukkah fell on December 20-28, did those who celebrated it also celebrate Tammuz’s birth simply because of the days on the calendar on which the celebration fell? Of course not!

      You wrote, “Remember that everytime you write and tell people not to follow the Law (instruction) of YHVH it would be better that you be cast into the sea with a stone around your neck.”

      J.L., you show yourself as one who has not really read what is written here. I NEVER tell people not to follow the Law of God! Defining what is required of we who are in Christ is addressed, but I never tell people what to do. If you want to live according to the Old Covenant, that is certainly your choice. As one in Christ, I choose to live in the New Covenant which is superior to the Old, which in Christ is obsolete:

      Hebrews 8:6, 13
      6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
      13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

      I think it appropriate to let the writer of the letter to the Hebrews have the last word.

      -JGIG

  17. Hello, JGIG

    I too think it appropriate to let the writer of Hebrews have the last word on the supremacy and completed work of Christ.

    God’s Supreme Revelation, Hebrews 1:1-4

    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    The reference to Christ “sat down at the right hand of the Magesty on high”….speaks of Christ resting from completing the Father reedeming, reconciling, restoring and effectual work of the cross; making the way possible that the JUST and HOLY ONE can justify the unjust and sinful one (you and I) who place their faith and trust in the finished work of Christ. In like fashion there is rest for those who stop working trying to please God with ther own sacrificial system trying to earn His favor rather then resting in His completed work thru Christ. Oh how marvelous is the mercy and grace of our God.

    I pray the Lord will encourage your heart JGIG…you are doing a great work addressing the lies and heresy the HRM teaches.

    Blessings to you,

    Praise God for His wonderfull salvation!

    Mark

  18. The original post contained the comment, “man was not able to keep the Law, but that after the work of Christ, enabled by His Holy Spirit, we are able to keep the Law – as He did.” After the first few negative posts derided the author for not knowing what she was talking about and not doing her research, the conversation turned in just that direction. Which of course just goes to further prove the original point.

    I come from a tradition that teaches we are sanctified by faith alone the same way we are justified by faith alone. Perhaps not everyone will fill comfortable taking things that far, but I think we can agree that sanctification can not become the same type of moral ism you could achieve in just about any other religious setting. Sanctification is not a personal improvement project, but a being made holy. We can only be made holy through the one who alone is called Holy.

    It seems to me that the HRM has a bit of a Roman stripe running through it. Rome is afraid that faith alone will lead to moral and spiritual laxity. HRM (holding this same concern) seems to see justification as Gods part while sanctification, read our new ability to follow the law, as our part. The only difference being where does man get his say.

    In truth the scarey part about the new birth is not the dying to our self it is the being born a new creation. We do not completely want to give up total control to God. We still ask what about me, what is my role. His answer is let me be God. As we are sanctified we will become a neighbor, freely, spontaneously, giving of the self in self-forgetful and uncalculating ways. “But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you” (Mt 6:3-4).

    It has been said that sanctification is just the getting used to your justification. Just as we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone, we are also sanctified through a faith that believes that he will bring to completion this good work which he has begun in us. God has not empowered us to keep the law. Luther once said, “The law commands do this and it is never done. Faith says believe this and everything is already done.” The good we do is a fruit regardless of whether we are talking about sanctification or justification. In both cases it is God who brings about the change in us and it is a change that turns us towards him and not towards ourselves and what we can do.

  19. All the comments you posted are the same teachings from the Sunday school, try to prove there biblical points wrong and you will see that you can’t find different biblical definitions.
    You talking about redefining the terms in HRM but we like Christians we don’t have terms definer at all.
    Please define LOVE, SIN, or New Covenant and you will see that you cannot come up with any denominational consent related to these terms. They (HRM) may not have all the answers to all controversy verses but if you are walking by the spirit it will guide you in truth.
    One example from your remarks:
    12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
    My question for you is how to love? Define biblical love and actions.

    • 1 Corinthians 13
      1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

      4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

      8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

      13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

      As for Biblical definitions, there are solid definitions for Biblical terms – many of which have been re-defined by those in the Hebrew Roots Movement, resulting in theology that is NOT supported by the whole of the Scriptures. Walking by the Spirit revealed that to me =oD.

      -JGIG

    • Hot as flaming; strong as death
      Free as a king; conquers in a breath
      As hungry as famine; epic as war
      Covers all sins, like blood upon the door
      As patient as the sun, kind as the rain
      Humble as the earth, giving as the grain
      Silent as the moon, peaceful as the night
      As forgiving as water, pure as light
      Helpful as the wind, polite as the breeze
      Glad at happy home, sad at empty seas
      Faithful as the star, hopeful as the shore
      Endures as that sailor from tales of yore
      Fair as a princess, noble as knight’s heart
      Binding as the vow “til death do us part.”

    • Look at the word “Love” and see it as a verb, not an emotion! It then becomes very simple to define.

  20. A lot of HRM guys try to define love as obeying the Law, and sin as breaking the Law. Regarding the second part, if you’re under the Law, then of course it’s a sin to break it. However, the Law was created because of sin, and sin existed long before it was made. It is a revelation of good and evil, just as the Noachide laws were. Sin is missing the mark, an archery term. When you aim at doing the right thing, in the right way, with the right motivation, with the right goal, with the right tools, to the right extent, at the right time, etc etc etc, and you MISS any of those points, that’s a sin–the opposite of righteousness.

    Now as for Love, Jane Smith is quite right. It’s not an emotion. I think of it as a disposition. The HRM thing is to say that love in action, as touching God, is obedience–specifically the Law. “If you love God, you’ll obey Him, and obedience to the Law is proof that you love Him.”
    Of course, obeying the Law doesn’t prove that at all. But if you love God? Yeah, of course you’ll obey Him, but the Law? After the Resurrection? After the receiving of the Holy Spirit? The HRM proposition is that without the Law, there is no set of rules to avoid sin–there’s no guide. As if we didn’t have a God-given conscience, and He didn’t give us the Holy Spirit either.

    And even so, love is a disposition–you actually care about another person. If you love God, you care about what He care what He thinks, feels, and desires. You desire Him, His presence–just as any child desires the presence of their father. A child cannot comprehend everything about their father, but they know his voice, and they listen for it, and when He speaks, they obey it.

    Under the Law, King David had to follow God’s written instructions, but He also had a very intimate relationship with God. I suppose that David’s love helped him follow the Law, just as the Law instructed him to “love the LORD with all (his) heart, soul, and strength.” But that’s the Law and Love working together. NOW, under the New Testament, our instructions come from the Holy Spirit. The Bible is our reference guide, to correct or confirm our fallible hearing, but it comes AFTER we hear from God (Luke 1:1-4), and AFTER the informal instruction of older brothers and sisters in Christ.

  21. I’ve read some of these comments and find that we are more ready to listen to the lies of the enemy (Lucifer) and glory in or own tradition then take time to listen to what Elohim (GOD) has to say in His own word. I also believe that most people who make evil comments practice some form of wickedness in their lives such as adultery, fornication,uncleanness, lascivious, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revelings and speak evil against dignitaries, protest against government official rather then pray for them, who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them, just to name a few but forget the fruit of the spirit which is love, joy peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, goodness, righteousness and truth where any one goes against these things will suffer the vengeance of GOD.

    Blessed are they which are persecute for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blesses are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all matter of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    • First, everybody, and I mean all humans, do at least one of those wicked things on a regular basis. We’re screwed up. Not an excuse. Just a fact.

      Second, while those fruits are indeed of the Spirit, and in fact are the Kingdom of God… “anyone goes against these things will suffer the vengeance of God?” There might be a place somewhere in all that for His grace.

      Third, this is a tricky bit of logic: righteous people have been persecuted. You’re being persecuted (or at least somebody is). Your conclusion is that therefore you must be righteous, or at least this somehow comforts you that at least you’re righteous. However, righteous people aren’t the only ones who are persecuted. So are the unrighteous.

  22. geroge

    what are you saying? are you sayin this about The HRm or people that disagree with it?

    George I would be careful if i was you, your pulling some heavy judgement on people you do not Know either it be people in the HRM or not.

    I would leave The judging of People heart to God and Him alone.

  23. also define evil comments?

  24. I’m not talking about the HRM or about people who disagree with it. I’m talking about people who believe they know the Scripture and really don’t know what they say the scripture says. The Bible says 1Jo 2:3 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” You say we are free of the law because Heb 8:7 For ‬ if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. ‪8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    Now you neglect the rest of the Scripture which say Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. ‬10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: ‬‪11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. ‪13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    This signifies that the old covenant was not perfect because it was upheld by Priest the Levitical Priest hood which were men and not God. It was never God’s intent to have man run the priest hood. Man at the mount Sini told Moses after hearing the voice of the Lord God, that whatever God said we will do but couldn’t do as proven after‬ God showed them all the miracles against Egypt, the miracles in the wilderness and so forth. God wants to reign in our hearts, not from a table of stones. The Levitical Priest Hood is done away with and replaced with the Christ, not the law of God. Much more can be said about this, but this should get you to a better understanding.

    My writing this is not to condemn anyone, it is the hope that you can look at the Scripture in a different light then what we have been taught by the Tradition of Men. I know that myself was taught the same things and it was heard to change but with a lot of prayer and fasting the Lord started to open His Word up to me not because I was smart, but because I started to humble myself before GOD and started to let Him speak to me rather them only putting petition before Him which didn’t even agree with His Word.

    • Georges – You fault the Levites with the failure of the Old Covenant? Really?

      So Israel did not go after idols?

      She did not rebel against God?

      Israel as a whole did not break the Covenant with God because they (as we all) are sinful?

      Really?

      Here’s the thing: The Old Covenant is a whole unit; you cannot break it apart into Priesthood, sacrificial laws, ceremonial laws, moral laws, etc. The Old Covenant was designed to be a functioning UNIT.

      With the new Priesthood came a New Covenant, the Law of Christ, forged in His Blood.

      Love God, love others. Every law that God desires for us to fulfill is fulfilled by doing those two things:

      John 6:28-29
      28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
      29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

      1 John 3:21-24
      21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

      Romans 13:8-14
      8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

      11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

      2 Corinthians 3
      1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

      4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

      7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

      12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

      It’s not about keeping Feasts, Days, and dietary laws now, which lead to isolation from those we are supposed to be ministering to, it’s about going out into the world and loving those who need Jesus and what He accomplished at the Cross – that being the forgiveness of sins and New Life in Christ, not simply the replacement of a priesthood.

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

      • From JGIG: You fault the Levites with the failure of the Old Covenant? Really?

        From Georges: All the Covenants God made from the time of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and the children of Israel did not take anything away from the previous covenant but only strengthen each covenant. The Levites where responsible for the Priesthood where they failed to do all of God’s commandments. Even Moses failed when he struck the rock instead of speak like God instructed him, therefore he was not permitted to enter the promise land nor was Aaron. God want’s a relationship with us, not a covenant written on stone but on a heart of flesh. That is why he sent His Son to do what we couldn’t do, to redeem us unto himself.
        So Israel did not go after idols? They certainly did.
        She did not rebel against God? They certainly did.

        The children of Israel did all those thing or else there would not have been a needed for a New Covenant. If the first Covenant had been perfect, (God did not make a mistake on the first Covenant) there would not have been a need for the second. God knew everything before it came to pass. That’s why he is able to send Moses and the Prophets to worn his people to turn from their wicked ways or else this is what I’m going to do. He is much smarter then we are and he allowed everything to happen according to his will. We can not even twitch a finger without his foreknowledge. God made the covenant with man, not man with God. Man agreed with God while they were trembling in there boots and messing themselves because of fear while God was speaking to them. Then they told Moses they wanted Moses to do the speaking and they would do whatever God said but let not God speak to us least we die. God wants a relationship with man but man doesn’t want a relationship with God. We are full of excuses. Nothing has changed.

        The Second Covenant took nothing away from the First Covenant but only strengthen it, just as when a New President takes over the President Office or White House, the laws which were passed do not go away because there is a new President in the White House. The country is still operated by all the laws of the past Presidents since the USA has been declared a Country.

        Now when God delivers us from the bondage of sin by Grace, sin has no power over us, and that’s conditional upon repentance. Our works is only a production of our faith in Christ Jesus. If we continue to sin willfully and grieve the Holly Spirit we lose that fellowship that brought our soul so much joy that we begin looking for where we went wrong, we become disduaught because there is a hunger in our soul to be in a relation with the Lord Jesus Christ that moment of joy we experienced before we fell. If there is no repentance then there has been no conviction of the very depth of sin and that is where our so called churches are leading us today. They are not interested in what the Word of God says but make up there own tradition and call it the word of God

        They say give your heart to Jesus when there is no Scripture backing to do this. Rev 3: 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Here we see him standing at the luke warm church wanting someone to allow him entrance but they are not interested in Him just like they are not interested in Him today. Nothing has changed. Jon 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Trusting the Lord, georges

      • Georges, your post is a mish-mash of mixing Law and the Gospel along with several false statements, the most glaring of which is the statement about laws under different US presidents never changing. You wrote, “The Second Covenant took nothing away from the First Covenant but only strengthen it, just as when a New President takes over the President Office or White House, the laws which were passed do not go away because there is a new President in the White House. The country is still operated by all the laws of the past Presidents since the USA has been declared a Country.”

        I have one word for you: SLAVERY. Under President Abraham Lincoln slavery was abolished as the law of the land.

        You’re attempting to put old wine into new wineskins, and it just cannot be done.

        Christ is the end of the law for all who believe (Romans 10:4).

        Which law? Old Covenant Law.

        Does that mean that we are now without law?

        No.

        We are under Christ’s Law – love God, love others, which, according to Romans 13:8-10, fulfills the requirements of the Old Covnenant.

        It’s really just that simple.

        Grace and peace,
        -JGIG

      • Ok, I have quitely monitored the wonderful debate going on here. However, JGIG, in my humble opinion the whole “slavery” point, in truth falls a little flat. Slavery was never “acceptable” in Jesus eyes to begin with. Men can make something “evil” perfectly legal. This does not make the “legal evil” acceptable in the eyes of God. The “right” thing to do was to Abolish it. The whole issue of slavery should have never reached the point that it did.

        On this whole point England stands as a beacon. At least they abolished slavery WITHOUT going to war over the issue.

        Shalom JGIG

        Eleazar Times

      • The issue was not whether or not slavery was acceptable, eleazar, the issue was whether or not laws can change =o).

      • You are absolutely right. Laws can change, Man’s law that is. Slavery was a MAN-made institution that was evil from the outset. It should have NEVER been established at all. God’s Law (instructions) are forever settled in heaven. For HE alone can establish something that will last for eternity. Just because MAN (humans) disregards and ignores what God approves of, in no way changes that HIS Law (instructions) are still applicable today. For HE alone DOES NOT change.

        David “Eleazar” Kitchens
        Psalms 119:89 KJV – For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

      • God’s laws have obviously changed . . . we are no longer offering sacrifices, for instance, which was an integral part of Old Covenant Law.

        I rest my case =o).

        -JGIG

      • On this point we are in total agreement. There is no sacrifices made for sin for Yeshua was the ultimate sacrifice for sin. However, if you are saying that the rest of His Law has changed, then you are quite obviously mistaken. Murder is still murder. Theft is still theft. What has changed was your heart so that you no longer WANT to steal but to be honest and upright. Elohim still considers theft to be a sin, what has changed was the penalty for sin. He alone paid the ultimate price for ALL transgressions as defined by HIM and His Law.

      • The point you’re missing, eleazar, is that the sacrificial system was an integral part of Mosaic Covenant Law. As a functioning covenant, the MCL is obsolete, replaced by a better covenent, the New Covenant.

        Every single command that God requires from us now can be placed under ‘love God, love others’. How do we love God? On the ‘thou shalt not’ side, we don’t take His name in vain, and we don’t worship idols. On the ‘thou shalt’ side of things, if one is loving God, they express that love by serving Him – how do we serve Him? By loving others. If we are loving others we are not murdering, stealing, dishonoring, sleeping with someone other than our own spouse, bearing false witness against them, etc. And loving them goes beyond doing no harm, but extends to loving them sacrificially with works of service. For some that will mean going to Africa to dig wells to show the love of God. For others, they may become medical missionaries. For others, they may become translators to give the Word of God to a people-group who has never had it before. For others it will be raising a godly family. For others it will simply mean blooming where they’re planted; as a ditch-digger, police officer, airline agent, restaurant worker, construction worker, financial planner – wherever God has called us, we, as His, look for opportunities to love and serve others with the love of Christ.

      • Then you must explain why the Apostle Paul said that the Law (Torah) is good, holy, and just.

        “What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.” – Romans 7:7-13 NIV

        If I maintain that I can follow the law without accepting Yeshua, then this whole website is fully just and right on point. IF, however, you maintain that the Law does not POINT OUT what IS actual sin…Sorry, but you are barking up the wrong tree.

        We do not follow the “Law” to be saved, we obey becuase we love him.

      • Eleazar, if you believe that to show God love you have to obey the laws found in the Old Covenant, then that is certainly your choice.

        I choose to rest in the righteousness that God has given apart from Law; that from Christ. Christ’s Life flows through me (via His Holy Spirit), showing me how to obey Him in any and all circumstances/situations. That is called being led by the Spirit, and as the letter to the Galatians states, if one is led by the Spirit, one is not under the Law.

      • That is called being led by the Spirit, and as the letter to the Galatians states, if one is led by the Spirit, one is not under the Law.

        I am glad and filled with joy that you enjoy being led by the spirit. However, I must point out what the Apostle John says in 1 John…

        “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” – 1 John 4:1-6 KJV

        The Apostle John cautions us to NOT BELIEVE every so-called spirit that wants us to do certain things, but, in fact, to test them to see if they are of God or of the Devil. He further cautions and points out that there are TWO spirits in this world…the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error. My question to you is how do you discern the which is which? What are your scriptural guidelines for making this discernment?

        Whether or not you choose to call him Jesus or Yeshua makes very little difference to me. Jesus (Yeshua) is YHWH in the flesh as stated in John 1.

      • Are you implying that I’m being led by a spirit other than the Holy Spirit?

      • JGIG: You removed some of my reply June 20, 2012 at 10:24pm I will insert it again without prejudice, your comment,
        from JGIC: You fault the Levites with the failure of the Old Covenant? Really? My reply, I don’t know where I said that?

        Slavery is not a law of God!
        Ro 10:4 Lets not forget v 2,3,5-13. You can not take a verse and make a doctrine out of it. The law was my school master to bring me to God. Once it done that, the law had no power over me. It can not even condemn me any more. That fulfils Ro 10:4. Do You understand what it means to be under Christ’s Law? It means to be blameless before men, where no one can put there finger on you and accuse you of fault other then being a follower of Christ.
        Ro 13:8-10 I noticed that your choice of verses fulfill Ex 20, Ex 34 and Du 5. Do You read the Old Testament at all or are you just a lop sided Christian? “The New is in the Old contained. The Old is in the New explained..” You down talk the law but use the law to explain your stand. I’m sure that we are saying the same thing but you are so against anyone who speaks about the law that you neglect the changes that took place in you, by reading the whole Bible if your a child of God. If there is no change there is no fear of God before their eyes.
        I would like to read your testimony on how God saved your soul.
        Trusting the Lord, georges

      • Georges, I removed nothing; simply made it clear at the beginning of your post who was saying what.

        Your message is a mixed-bag; are we bound to the Law or not in your view? You seem to say not, but then accuse me of ‘talking down the law’. I’m sure that we are NOT saying the same things regarding the Gospel and the Law.

        As for my testimony, you can find it here: http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/about-the-author/

  25. George If you Notice hebrews 8:13-17 no where limited to the just the priesthood changing but a whole new brand new Covenant that was not seen before.

    • Travis; Heb 8 only goes to verse 13 so I don’t know where your coming from. We still have a priesthood today and a new Covenant. The difference is the sacrifice part is done away with because our new High Priest now sits on the right hand of the Father where he makes intersection for all those who believe in him with his own blood. The order of Melchizedek who had no beginning or end. Even Abraham paid tithes to him.The New Covenant is that we are saved by Grace through faith in Christ Jesus and nothing else. Faith without works is dead and I’m sure that there is a lot of change in your life if you are in Christ Jesus. The Bible says “let him who stole steal no more.” If you don’t steal no more does that make you a law keeper or obedient to his word?

      • 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. (from Hebrews 7)

        Not just sacrifices, but all of the ceremonial laws have passed. The evidence is that God allowed the Temple and the Levitical priesthood to pass away . . . that was by God’s design. He prophesied it and it came to pass.

  26. LOL! It has just struck me that the illustration of an incorrect model in the above article is the geocentric view, in which the earth was the center of the solar system, and therefore the universe. Theologically, that’s inaccurate because GOD is the center of the universe, BTW, for you sacred name guys, if you think calling Him “God” is wrong, how would you translate “El” as in “Isra-EL?”
    The funny bit to me is that my fave Greek philosopher, Aristotle, was the main guy proposing that view, and because his moral and logical philosophy was sound, nobody questioned his science. Centuries later, one of the most incredibly brilliant scientists and mathematicians in the world, Ptolemy, the guy who figured out the approximate circumference of the globe by measuring shadows around the mediterranean, came up with the Almagest, a profoundly complex mathematical model PROVING that the planets go around the earth, despite the rather odd retrograde motions observed by the ancients.
    Two similar groups do the same thing today. One are the Evolutionists, who provide us with scientific models PROVING that their assumptions are correct, and the HRM guys, who provide us with theological/kabbalistic models PROVING their assumptions are correct.
    Yet, as Dr. Thomas Sowell succinctly puts it “reality is not an option.” God created the heavens and the earth, the earth and other planets revolve the sun, and rather than gentile believers being grafted into the Hebrew people, ALL believers are grafted into the tree, which is the Kingdom. Our foundation is not Israel, but Yeshua, according to His Spirit, not His flesh.

  27. My comment is primarily for any HRM follower who comes here to read. I want to preface my comment with my background: I was raised in a Christian home, accepted Jesus as my Savior as a young child, grew up regularly attending a Baptist church, believed Sunday was Sabbath, was pre-trib, etc. I was taught and believed once saved always saved and that as long as I believed Jesus was God who died on the cross for my sins and asked Him to save me, I could not go to Hell, regardless of any sin I might commit. I came to my current beliefs about obeying the Laws of God, including Sabbath and dietary, a post-tribulation return of our Lord, living Holy (repentant from sin) etc. from *reading scripture* and *prior* to ever hearing about the Hebrew Roots movement. I think there are many of us who come to these same conclusions apart from HRM teachers. The truth is found in God’s word, not man, including HRM teachers. Just because an HRM teacher says to check everything they say against the word of God, does not mean they are telling you the truth…they might be, they might not be. It’s your soul on the line.

    That said: Yeshua is God. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. He is God’s word who *became* flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotten Son of God. Do not stop believing this. Yeshua is God who became flesh.

    What concerns me the most are some HRM teachers and their followers who begin to question who Yeshua is. They begin to question what ‘the Word who became flesh’ means, even to the point that they begin to believe Jesus was just a fully human man who God dwelt inside of. For our own sakes, in order for others to understand *exactly* what we mean, we should not just say “God in flesh” but rather “God who became flesh”. While it’s true that the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily in Him (Yeshua) it is also true that the Word of God who is God *became* flesh….God became a man, He didn’t just dwell inside of a man. Trust me, it makes a difference because really sinister cults will say God was in flesh but they don’t mean what we mean…

    Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords, the only God! He is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father and the Prince of Peace, the Son of God, the Son of Man, Redeemer, Savior, The Rock, The Almighty.

    Maranatha!

  28. So interesting. I stumbled upon this website because I typed Jim Staley in the google bar. I think it is no coincident that I am here now. I have been for the last year or more processing, praying, studying, watching, hearing, reading, and whatever else a person could do to become more informed on the subject of BRM. I have a friend, actually a couple of them, that have gone done this path. One has been here for several years and the other just recently and myself, I had been lingering for quite sometime until recently. Let me elaborate.

    When I was first introduced to this idea of keeping Torah it sounded amazing. Wow! What better way to show Heavenly Father that I love Him than to do all “I” can to be holy. I heard all the scriptures that the HRM give out in rapid fire. They made sense, but as time wore on, and I got further in, I started to notice isolation and a discontent with my church. My wife was very confused, I was becoming more confused. How can I follow all these and why? I thought that the law was fulfilled in Yeshua/Jesus. He filled it or satisfied what the Law/Torah required. Still, I continued.

    I began studying hebrew, which is amazing I might add, and watching videos on websites like 119ministries who seemed to promote more confusion than clarity. I began to notice this trend in the HRM, so I started to really seek Elohim (just as a side note, those who are typing the Tetragrammaton name of Elohim, you should hope that those posts never get deleted, becasue it would be erasing the name of Elohim. Which according to rabbinical is forbidden.) After all, He said “ask.” What I felt mostly is that the focus became, whether intentionally or not, more on Moshe/Moses and the Law over Yeshua/Jesus and the fulfillment of the Law. They cite the same scriptures over and over. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” But as Paul says in Galatians 5:

    1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
    2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
    3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
    4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
    5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
    6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
    7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
    8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.
    9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

    I found it a trend that those who chase after this run into the unknown. They do not know their identity. They are not able to recognized the wolves in sheeps clothing. Even if we wanted to practice Torah fully we are unable to. There is no temple to sacrifice in. Which brings another point, is Yeshua the ultimate sacrifice for atonement? Yes! Therefore we no longer need to sacrifice to atone for sins. He did it and then sat down because it is done. “It is finished.” I however do not want to argue, but merely share my experience with others to show that they are not the only ones.

    Above, there was a post about an open letter to the HRM. It described recent circumstances although I had not gone as far as she had. The Lord was protecting me. The story begins that I started to read the “extra” books like Jasher, the Book of Jubilees, Enoch, etc. also reading rabbinical commentary such as Rashi’s or Rabbi Joseph Telushkin. Embedded in these texts are either a questioning of Elohim’s motives or deep mysticism. This opened up some doors and many know what I am talking about. I recently had a demonic attack in the middle of the night. The only way I came out of it was by saying the name of Elohim (the Name), when He pulled me out of this attack, He immediately began to speak to me urging me to stop right now and to not continue any further on this journey. I was to turn and run. I can not express the peace and joy I have felt since.

    And just as a counter to all those who say that non-observers use grace to do whatever we want. You could not be more mistaken. Just as you have urged JGIG to no make generalizations, I would urge you as well to not make the same generalizations. We live by the Ruach Hakodesh/Holy Spirit. This is our Helper. The Word written on our heart.

    Your site is great. Thank you.

  29. These are my two main arguments concerning legalism that is if someone is really seeking the truth.
    Acts 15
    5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party(J) of the Pharisees(K) stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”(L)

    6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.(M) 8 God, who knows the heart,(N) showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them,(O) just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them,(P) for he purified their hearts by faith.(Q) 10 Now then, why do you try to test God(R) by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke(S) that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace(T) of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” That is the subject being addressed. Now verse 19 onward says:
    19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols,(AA) from sexual immorality,(AB) from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.(AC) 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”(AD)

    The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers

    22 Then the apostles and elders,(AE) with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch(AF) with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas,(AG) men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

    The apostles and elders, your brothers,

    To the Gentile believers in Antioch,(AH) Syria(AI) and Cilicia:(AJ)

    Greetings.(AK)

    24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.(AL) 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives(AM) for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas(AN) to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit(AO) and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.(AP) You will do well to avoid these things.

    Farewell.

    Now does anyone know more that the apostles through the Holy Spirit? I think NOT!

    As far as keeping the Sabbath is concerned and I do attend shabbat services when I can because of the prophetic nature of it, however
    Yeshua said, “Man was not made for the sabbath but the sabbath for man.” Mark 2:27

  30. I think that, whatever side you take, you all ought to thoroughly investigate the Scriptures. I don’t just mean reading it. I mean looking into the original languages, history, etc. As a student of Hebrew and Greek, I am often appalled at how many translations twist what the original verses actually said. I believe Matthew 5:17-19 and can see how the Messiah fulfilled the sacrificial laws. But as for all the other laws, I am struggling to see how He fulfilled them so we do not have to follow them. Not only that, but I think the laws are for our own good. Who wouldn’t want a Sabbath where they can relax every week to just focus on Yahweh? Who wouldn’t want to know which foods are and are not healthy for their body? Who wouldn’t want to celebrate Jewish festivals where Yahweh essentially tells you to take a day off and party with Him? Looking into history, the early Church kept Torah, but it was the Romans who began to change things. Look into the councils throughout history to find out WHO really outlawed the things like the Saturday Sabbath, festivals, and other aspects of Torah. And look at WHEN they outlawed them (hundreds of years after the Messiah ascended). It sure was not the Messiah who abolished the Law. It was man.

    • . . . because if we are in Christ and led by the Spirit, we are no longer under Law:

      Galatians 5:16-18
      16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

      -JGIG

      • Great verse. What I’ve found is that being under the Spirit is often more severe than being under the Law. For instance, instead of just not killing, we are to not hate (Matt 5:21-22); instead of just not committing adultery, we are to not lust (Matt 5:27-28); etc. Galatians 5:18 says that “IF you are led by the Spirit,” you are not under the Law. So, IF one truly has the Spirit, they should naturally keep God’s Law because the Spirit is more strict than the Law (from examples just given). This would make sense tying together 1 John 3:4 and 3:6. Would you say someone who is truly led by the Spirit will not sin and hence not break God’s Law? Romans 8:7. I’m curious on your thoughts

      • TK, you wrote, “What I’ve found is that being under the Spirit is often more severe than being under the Law.”

        What a curious thing to say, as Scripture says these things about the Law and the Spirit:

        Law stirs up sin:

        Romans 7:7-8
        7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

        Law produces death:

        Romans 7:9-11
        9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.

        Law produces fruit unto death:

        Romans 7:5
        5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

        What are the results of a focus on Grace and the Spirit for those in Christ?

        Grace teaches us godliness:

        Titus 2:11-14
        11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It [grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

        The Spirit produces life:

        Romans 8:5-6
        5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

        The Spirit produces the Fruits of the Spirit:

        Galatians 5:22-25
        22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

        What you’re describing from Matthew 5 is Christ absolutely burying us under Law – making it even more impossible to keep – so that we MUST come to Him for Mercy and Grace for any hope at all!

        As for your interpretation of Galatians 5:18, no. It simply means what it says: If you are led by the Spirit you are not under Law. The Gospel is this: Jesus died for the sins of the world. When one puts their faith and trust in Christ they receive that forgiveness and become the righteousness of God in Christ. Because they are now righteous in Christ, the Holy Spirit can indwell them (we are His sanctified temple), restoring the life that was lost at the Fall. The work of Christ was not done to make law-breakers into law-keepers, but to make spiritually dead people into spiritually alive people.

        If you choose to live by the Law, sin will increase as the Bible tells us in the passages above.

        If you choose to live by the Spirit and Grace, you will bear the Fruits of the Spirit – and Grace will teach you to say no to ungodliness – sin will decrease.

        It’s counter-intuitive to our flesh, but we’re not to be led by the flesh, but by the Spirit, and if we’re led by the Spirit, we’re not under Law =o).

        Blessings,
        -JGIG

      • God says:

        “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.” (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

        Paul refers to this passage in Ezekiel several times, which he would not do if he was saying that being led by the Spirit is the opposite of keeping God’s laws and decrees.

        It is important to realize that ‘obeying God’s laws’ is not equal to ‘obeying the flesh’.

        Again, obeying God’s laws is not equal to obeying the flesh. If we obey God’s Spirit, we are obeying God’s laws because the Spirit does not lead us to disobey God or His laws. If that is what one believes, one should test the spirit they are listening to.

        Being led by the flesh would be the opposite of obeying God’s laws.

        God’s Spirit is not contrary to the law of God. It is the flesh that is contrary to the law of God and cannot obey the laws of God.

        Romans 8 is a wonderful example of this if we do not stop at verse 6 but read through to verse 7 and 8.

        “For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, BECAUSE the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; FOR IT DOES NOT SUBJECT ITSELF TO THE LAW OF GOD, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

        Kind of important. We see that it is not the Spirit who is hostile to the law of God rather it is the flesh that is hostile *because* it does not subject itself to the Law of God. The flesh can’t—but the Spirit does.

        Those led by the Spirit find peace *because* we are no longer warring against God and His law. As the Psalmist said:

        “Those who love Your law have great peace, and nothing causes them to stumble.”

        There is no law *against* the fruit of the Spirit—because the Spirit of God is *not* contrary to God’s laws.

        God’s law does not save us, it never did save us. God’s law points out God’s righteous requirement. When we see God’s law we see that we do not meet God’s righteous requirement. We realize we deserve the penalty of breaking God’s law/sin, which is death. We go to God for mercy and He provides mercy and grace through Jesus, His Son. However, this does not mean that God’s laws are abolished. Jesus said clearly that He did not come to abolish God’s laws…Jesus is not some sort of rebellious son who came to abolish His father’s law as a way of saving us. NO. Rather, Jesus met the righteous requirements of the law and then died in our place, the innocent for the guilty. The law is eternal according to the Psalms. Jesus did not abolish the law. Those who teach that God has abolished His own law are teaching the Jews to reject their Messiah since their very scriptures warn that false prophets will teach against God’s laws. Jesus was a true prophet of God, the true only begotten Son of God, the true Messiah and the only God who became flesh—these are His laws and they are eternal as He is.

        Flesh and Law are *not* equivalent.

        Romans 7 is not saying that the law is the killer but that sin is the killer. Sin *used* the law as a weapon to kill. Knowing there is a law against something causes the flesh to want to do whatever there is a law against. Sin used the law to arouse the flesh. The flesh then sinned. Sin brought death. The law was never the bad thing or even the thing that brought death—it was sin that brought death. Sin used the law as a weapon. It’s like saying guns kill people. Guns are just guns. People kill people. People use guns to kill people. The gun is not the killer, the person who used the gun is the killer. In this case, sin used the law to kill the person. Paul clarified later in verse 13 when he said:

        “Was then that which is good (the law) made death unto me? ****God forbid!**** But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good (the law); that sin by the commandment (the law) might become exceeding sinful.”

        Example
        “Was it a gun that killed those children? God forbid. A person who was a killer, that they might be revealed for the killer they are, killed those children with a gun, that the killer -by using a gun- might become an exceeding killer.”

        Sin existed prior to the written law. But once the laws were written down, sin used the commandment as an opportunity to kill—to make men even more guilty and worthy of death.

        I hope no one who reads this thread walks away thinking that 1) the Spirit wants us to disobey God’s laws or 2) the God’s law and the works of the flesh are the same thing—just be led by spirit. I pray that believers will test all spirits to see if they are from God and that they will know that one tests the spirits by the written word of God. If someone is telling us to disobey God’s law, they do not know God.

        ‘God’s Law’ doesn’t save, but it IS Holy, Righteous, Pure, Eternal, Just, Good and many other adjectives that are also used to describe Jesus Himself.

        God bless.

      • ALamb,

        Your whole post can be refuted by this one Scripture:

        Galatians 5:18
        16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

        We are not led by the Spirit in order to keep law according to the Scriptures; if we are led by the Spirit we are not under law. As for the letter to the Romans, one must read the whole thing as a unit. When one does that, the message is clear; we are not under Law, but under Grace.

        -JGIG

      • I’m sorry you seem to think I am contradicting Paul. I am not contradicting Paul—and Paul is not contradicting the prophet Ezekiel or Jesus or James or John or Peter.

        Ezekiel 36:26-27
        “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. ***And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.***”

        Is this statement by Ezekiel for YHVH true or is Ezekiel a false prophet?

        If this statement is true, then you may need to re-read Paul’s letters. Please ask yourself who it is that Peter says is in error when teaching what Paul says, law breakers or law keepers?

        2Peter 3:15-17 (See also 2Peter2)
        “Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also *the rest of the Scriptures*, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the *error of unprincipled men* and fall from your own steadfastness.”

        Unprincipled: “athesmos”
        Definintion: one who breaks through the restraint of law and gratifies his lusts

        Who does Peter say twists Paul’s writings? The law keepers or the unprincipled/law breakers?

        Please consider all of the other scriptures along side Paul’s writings.

        My intention was not to touch a nerve as I seem to have done but to help show that the Spirit leads us to obey the King of kings and the laws of His Kingdom. Also, if you re-read my post I think you will see that we agree on many things in Christ.

        Resting in Christ

      • You are correct; Paul does not contradict the Prophets or Jesus or the other Apostles. For Jesus Himself said this:

        John 6:28-29
        28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

        29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

        And John reinforced Jesus’ words here:

        1 John 3:21-24
        21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

        Ezekiel was writing looking through the only lens he had available to him a the time; that of the Old Covenant. He wrote of a new heart – that is something that became a reality to those who would put their faith and trust in Christ – only in the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31 speaks of God saying, “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” Those are things that happen only under the New Covenant, that which establishes new law along with a New, Perfect High Priest, Who is Christ Jesus. What is that new law – the new commandments? To believe in the One God sent, Christ Jesus, and to love one another.

        Peter writing that Paul’s words were sometimes hard to understand came long after Paul’s letters to the Galatians in which Paul called out Peter for being swayed by the Judaizers of the day! Peter was speaking as one who had been rebuked by Paul regarding issues of Law and Grace! Grace issues were hard to understand for those who had been under Law for their whole lives!

        You asked, “Who does Peter say twists Paul’s writings? The law keepers or the unprincipled/law breakers?”

        Let me ask you this: Are those in Christ the righteousness of God in Christ or not (2 Cor. 5)? Does God consider those in Christ to be law-breakers, or does God see them clothed in the righteousness of Christ? Consider those who think they keep the Law (thinking that they establish their own righteousness): do they truly keep the Law? If they break just one part, they break it all. How does God view those who rely on Law for their righteousness (Gal. 3:10)?

        Mull that over for awhile, re-read the letters to the Romans, the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Colossians, and the Hebrews. Get a good feel for what God says about those who are in Christ and what that really means and the position those in Christ actually hold in the sight of God because of the Work of Christ and His position as our Perfect High Priest.

      • Thanks for sharing. :)

      • Thank you for sharing your thoughts and quoting those nice verses. May the Spirit guide you. :)

      • And you, TK.

        Grace and peace,
        -JGIG

    • In the first place, there is indeed nothing wrong with keeping the Law. However, this is much like saying there’s no harm in “just one beer.” Perfectly true. Yet for an alcoholic, there is no such thing as “just one beer.” Even so, for those whose great emptiness drives them to not merely hunger for righteousness, but follow the dictates of that hunger, keeping the Law is a dangerous thing, distracting them from the more complicated living relationship with God.
      In the second place, the Messiah didn’t abolish the Law. He disempowered it by rendering it obsolete by His death, burial, and resurrection.
      In the third place, the purpose of the Sabbath was so that Israel would know that God (the supreme being) is the LORD (the spiritual being whose person is His being) who sanctifies them (Ex 31:13). God set the Sabbath up as a sign between Israel and Himself. It wasn’t a sign from them to Him, but from Him to them. We have a better sign, Yeshua the Messiah, who is a better rest, for in Him is life.

      • I don’t see how trying to keep the Law can be compared to alcoholism. I just think the Law is fantastic (Romans 3:31, James 1:25, Deut 10:13, Acts 24:14). I know I am not saved by the Law. I just try to keep the Law to show my love for Yeshua (John 14:15, 1 John 2:4, 5:3, James 2:18-20). For certain things being just for Israel, Christians are technically grafted into Israel (Romans 11). This makes sense because the New Covenant is only with Israelites (read Jeremiah 31:31-33 carefully).

        I just don’t want to be called least in the Kingdom of God (Matthew 5:19-20). Plus, I want to be part of the Bride of Christ, not just a guest at the Marriage Supper.

        When you have time, you should look up some of Jim Staley’s teachings online from PassionForTruth Ministries. Whether you agree or disagree with his points (you decide), you will definitely be intrigued.

      • TK, I’ll leave the rest of your comment for Lon to respond to, but I wanted to address your recommendation of Jim Staley’s teachings.

        Here are some quotes from Jim Staley that I have a real problem with:

        In this clip, Staley mocks the believer’s right as the adopted of God to approach His Throne. Staley states, and please listen to the clip, as his tone is of note:

        “You want to touch the Face of God? According to the Torah, you have to be clean! And we’re not talking physical! It’s spiritual. And if we’ve been deceived into thinking, (and here Staley uses a mocking tone) ‘Oh, I can just waltz into the throne of grace ’cause I have the Blood of Yeshua on my heart.’ . . . Try that one! Let’s see how it works for ya.

        “You don’t come before your King . . . unclean. You come with clean hands, and a pure heart. And unfortunately the Bible says that we deceive ourselves . . . by thinking we’re okay.”

        Because of the Work of Christ the Scriptures do say that we are cleansed and purified – made clean – by Christ:

        Hebrews 10:11-14
        11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

        And because of the Work of Christ, we can approach the throne of grace with confidence:

        Ephesians 3:7-12
        7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

        Hebrews 4:14-16
        14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

        Jim Staley is teaching in direct opposition to what the Scriptures plainly say.

        I’ve watched a few of the ‘testimony’ videos on the Passion For Truth youtube channel as well. In one, Staley actually tells a believer that the Holy Spirit had departed from him and took his tzitzit away from him because ‘he was not worthy to wear them’. Then, after the believer came ‘back into covenant’, Staley gifted the believer with Staley’s personal tzitzits. The emotional and spiritual abuse and manipulation in that five minute video is stunning. In another, I saw a complete disregard for the Law as it was given by God in the ‘performing’ of a Nazarite vow. There’s another testimony of a young couple who became pregnant after much struggle, and Staley relays how he had previously prophesied over them that they would have a boy. They had a girl.

        In the ‘Great Deception’ videos I saw everything from yet another distortion of the Gospel to junk science to the claim that we have no ability to think evil thoughts to a subtle teaching of Lurianic Kabbalah.

        In another video, Staley shares how his ministry started. More contradictions with Scripture regarding the Temple (Staley claims that Yeshua was showing him His Temple in ruins – yet in the Scriptures after the Cross, we are His Temple, made of Living Stones, not in ruins, but being actively built – Eph. 2:19-22, 1 Peter 2:4-5, Eph. 3:10-11) and a claim that God instantly downloaded knowledge into Staley’s brain:

        “It was as if I, He had put a chip in my brain to understand Paul because there wasn’t enough time for me to go to college, there wasn’t enough time for me to learn Hebrew, there wasn’t enough time for me to dig into all of the culture and nuances of a rabbi, rabbi Shaul, studying under Gamaliel and knowing the entire Torah. He gave, He began to download to me understanding and I began to read through the book of Romans and it was if, I, I was there, in, in the church of Rome and I began to understand what he meant; light bulbs began to go on, and that’s when I began to teach – for six months, I taught verse by verse on the, uh, book of Romans.”

        We’re told to ‘study to show ourselves approved’, but God grants Jim Staley a ‘download’?

        There are some other issues of concern there, such as Staley’s wife praying against an entity that she saw ‘standing over the top’ of him, but Staley embracing the entity as either/or Yeshua Himself or a messenger from God.

        A good rule of thumb is that is that if a dream/vision contradicts clear Scripture, then it should be rejected, not have an entire ministry built upon it. Not to mention that Staley is admittedly uneducated and claims that God ‘downloaded’ knowledge to him. Forgive me, but I’m hearing echoes of Joseph Smith there. Details with links to the video and time stamps can be seen at THIS POST.

        So while you may recommend Jim Staley’s teaching, I most certainly DO NOT, after examining what he teaches when compared with what the Scriptures actually say.

        -JGIG

      • Dear JGIG,
        I love the work that your doing helping others that are bound and encumbered by law keeping sects to find true freedom in Christ Jesus thru the Glorious Gospel of our Great and Glorious God. I would encourage both TK and Lonowen to go to the Living God Ministries link you provide in the “Good Links” tab – Excellant perspective and teaching from a Jewish Christian.

        As a Christian I have gleaned much understanding and clarity from the teaching at Living God Ministries on the roles of the Old and New Covanants and there specific purposses and functions from Gods perspective.

        Thanks be to God for His Indescribable Gift of forgiviness and salvation thru the resoration of His Holy Spirit unto eternal Life thru Christ Jesus our Lord!

        Keep up the good work…
        Blessing to you!

      • Thanks, Mark!

        Yes, Living God Ministries/New Covenant Institute is a wonderful resource. I have a few minor disagreements with Aaron, but overall, highly recommend his stuff =o). He really has a way of clarifying roles/functions/purposes in/of the Old/New Covenants.

        You wrote, “Thanks be to God for His Indescribable Gift of forgiviness and salvation thru the resoration of His Holy Spirit unto eternal Life thru Christ Jesus our Lord!”

        Amen, brother!

        Grace and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ,
        -JGIG

      • Wowza. Thanks for those links and videos. I had never seen them before. If it makes you feel any better, I never gave JS any of my money. Rest assured, I do not blindly follow every little thing JS says. Rather, some of his videos have just made me think more about the context of Scripture, history, linguistics, etc. But, still, thank you for showing me that information. With this new knowledge, I suppose I shouldn’t recommend him to others anymore. :)

        You’ve given me some great verses and information, and I thank you for that. Now, please know I NEVER said we are saved by doing the Law or that Christians who don’t try to follow the Law are going to hell. I know we are saved by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). If you don’t want to try and follow the Law, I won’t judge you (Matt 7:1). As for me, trying to follow the Law is just how I show my love for my Messiah (John 14:15, 1 John 2:3-4). The Law is in no way burdensome for me (1 John 5:3, Deuteronomy 30:11). And I know that when I break it (1 John 1:10), I have a Mediator (1 John 2:1).

        Now I know it’s hard to grasp tone with just written words, but some of what you’ve written gives me the impression that you think I do not have a full relationship with God or that I am somehow spiritually oppressed. I can assure you that is not the case. I have the Spirit too (Ezekiel 36:27, 2 Corinthians 10:7). Yah bless my friend. :)

      • Thanks for not recommending Staley anymore. Beyond his blatant statements against the Gospel, he has some real financial issues to answer for. I’m glad you’ve not given money to him; he has not proved to be a good steward in that arena.

        I understand that you don’t believe we are saved by the Law; there are some who say that believers who don’t keep Law will lose their salvation, or that there was never salvation to begin with, or that those who don’t keep Law will be ‘least’ in the kingdom. I examine all of those beliefs in the post, Hebrew Roots Movement – Hebrews 10, Willful Sin, No More Sacrifice, and Judgement, Oh My!

        That you keep Feasts, days, and dietary laws as convictions – I’m fine with that in the spirit of Romans 14. The idea that you’re ‘following the Law’ however, is not accurate; the Law is a unit, one cannot pick and choose what to keep; one must keep all of it, or one keeps none of it, and subjects oneself to its curses. I don’t mean that to sound harsh, but that’s what the Scriptures say.

        You quote that the Law is not burdensome, yet what is it that God requires of us now that Christ has cut the New Covenant in His Blood? Jesus prophsies thus:

        John 6:28-29
        28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
        29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

        And John confirms it here:

        1 John 3:21-24
        21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

        If some of what I have written comes across as me thinking you don’t have the Spirit, that’s certainly not my intent. If you are in Christ, you certainly DO have His Spirit! My prayer is that you would fully embrace who you are in Christ and what your relationship to Law is because of who you are in Christ.

        I don’t agree with everything the following ministry teaches (they are definitely on the signs and wonders end of the spectrum, but are right on target when it comes to Old Covenant/New Covenant issues), but the following free download is one of the best teachings I’ve heard regarding Christ as our High Priest and what that means (it gets going around time stamp 6:00): The Wonder of Our Great High Priest. Another resource, that I highly recommend, is the New Covenant Institute, with teachings from a Hebrew Christian who became a believer while studying to become a Rabbi. He has several excellent series (all free downloads), but two that come to mind that really solidify Scripturally who we are in Christ are these: Atonement and Propitiation, and Understanding Forgiveness. He also has a good series in which he details the High Priesthood of Christ and what that means in reality: Jesus the Priest

        Take those resources or leave ‘em . . . it’s totally up to you =o). I’ve found that most folks who are into Torah teachings are not open to Grace teachings, but I’lol just throw those out there just in case you’re open to listening to them.

        Grace and peace to you,
        -JGIG

      • Your Hebrew Roots Movement article was interesting. Thanks for sharing it. I haven’t listened to all the audio teachings yet but will revisit them tomorrow. Thank you for sharing them.

        I apologize if I ever gave the impression that I think I keep the law perfectly. I know I do not. I simply TRY to keep the Law. When I fail, Yeshua pleads for me as my Mediator.

        Going back to keeping the WHOLE Law, there are some that simply do not apply to me–I do not own a farm, I am not a Levitical priest, I am not a man, etc. For the sacrificial laws, I know Yeshua fulfilled them. In Matthew 5:17-19, we can say Yeshua fulfilled the sacrificial laws. But how can Yeshua fulfill all the other laws for us? I would dare say that many Christians uphold the Law without even thinking about it.

        Many Christians think that they are not sinning as long as they “love others.” But then, what about homosexuality? The only reason that is mentioned as being wrong in the New Testament is because it is from the Mosaic Law. If you are to say the Mosaic Law is over and we are to just “love others”, you’d have to explain why homosexuals are in the list of 1 Corinthians 6:9.

        In my experience, many Christians subconsciously keep almost all of the Law with the exception of the food laws, the Sabbath, and the Feasts. The food laws are for our own health (shellfish are bottom-feeders, and pigs will eat anything put in front of them). As for the Sabbath and Feasts, those are fun times of relaxation / partying with God. If you think Christians “mix fabrics,” know the Hebrew for that Law actually means a specific mixing of linen and wool, which stores don’t tend to sell anyway. So, my question for you is: Which exact instructions in the Torah do you not like? I’m sure you’re fine with “do not kill, do not steal, honor your parents, etc.” Which laws do you not like that you are so in favor with “doing away with the Law”?

      • Hi TK,

        I do understand that there are Laws that do not apply to everyone. Even the laws that apply to you, however, cannot be kept without a Temple and a Levitcal priesthood. That is by design; the will of God; He absolutely prophesied, mandated and orchestrated the complete destruction of the Temple. Christ Jesus is our Perfected High Priest – and with the change of the priesthood there was a change of the Law. Not a change in the Law, but with the New Priesthood came the New Covenant. Again, one of the best teachings I’ve heard regarding Christ as our High Priest and what that means (it gets going around time stamp 6:00): The Wonder of Our Great High Priest The teaching gets going around time stamp 6:00, and I’ll repeat my caveat from my other comment: I don’t agree with everything that that ministry teaches, but they are right on target regarding Old/New Covenant issues.

        You wrote, “Many Christians think that they are not sinning as long as they “love others.” But then, what about homosexuality? The only reason that is mentioned as being wrong in the New Testament is because it is from the Mosaic Law. If you are to say the Mosaic Law is over and we are to just “love others”, you’d have to explain why homosexuals are in the list of 1 Corinthians 6:9.”

        If one breaks one of the laws, one has broken them all (Gal. 3 and James 2), so if you covet, lie, murder (in reality or in your heart), etc., in God’s eyes, you ARE guilty of homosexuality or any other of the more ‘vile’ sins that those who pursue Torah observance like to throw out there.

        If you find blessings and insight by celebrating Feasts and Sabbaths and want to keep dietary laws for health reasons, I think that’s fine; if you’re striving to do those things to avoid sinning, then you’ve not come to an understanding of Who your Perfect High Priest is, what He came to accomplish, and who you are in Him.

      • JGIG, I am confused. Why do you say that laws that apply to me can only be kept with a Temple and Levitical priesthood? Can you quote me a verse that says that? So, am I free to kill and steal because there is no Temple / Levites? Can I curse the deaf and trip the blind because there is no Temple / Levites? I do not understand your logic. Yes, there were sacrificial laws that needed a Temple / Levites. But there are plenty of laws that do not require Temple / Levites. Going back to homosexuality, we can not say it is fine to be gay just because there’s no Temple / Levites.

        I am not saying 1 sin is more vile than others. I was just using an example. You are right that breaking 1 law is like breaking them all. Thank goodness we have a Savior! From Galatians 5, the context of that verse has to do with salvation. I am not under the law in the sense that I may still go to heaven if I break it; I’ll just be least in the kingdom (Matt 5:17-19). But Yeshua and Paul and James and John all said the Law is good and that we should keep it (ALamb provided some good verses, and I’ve given you verses before). I am not under the Law, but I still try and keep it.

        I find blessings in the Law. As you say, that is fine. For not sinning, I do try not to sin. John 8:11. I am forgiven in Yeshua and try not to sin. If this bothers you, I am sorry. I want to be ready for Yeshua. A bride must prepare herself. I do not just want to be a guest at the wedding. Revelation 14:12 says the saints are those who have faith AND obey the commandments. I am not perfect, and I in no way elevate myself above you (Philippians 2:3, 1 Timothy 1:15). Every single OT reference to the New Covenant involves the Law, keeping the Law, and having the Law on our hearts. Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 36, Malachi 4.

        I know exactly who my Perfect High Priest is. I know what He came to accomplish and who I am in Him. Your arguments are tempting, I’ll admit, but Matthew 5:17-19 will not go away. I do not want to be called least in the Kingdom. Plus, I can not ignore Proverbs 28:9 and Psalm 50:16-17. Matthew 5:17-19 is not going away.

      • TK, do you believe that the Law was given as one, comprehensive unit, or that it can be picked apart and bits and pieces can be obeyed without being in violation to all of the other parts? Please post Scripture to support your view.

        If you agree with James and the letter to the Galatians that if you obey parts of the Law but not others (all that apply to you), you are guilty of violating it all, how does striving to ‘keep’ the Law (which you admitedly don’t do) honor God or benefit you?

        Why the shift in tone?

        I thought we were having a nice discussion.

        After much study of the Law-keeping point of view, when looking at the belief system through the lens of the Gospel (Who Christ Jesus is, what He came to accomplish, the completed work of the Cross, and who we are in Him), I’ve concluded that the Law-keeping belief system is contrary to the clear teachings of the New Covenant Scriptures. I’ve thoroughly studied out the Law side; can you say that you’ve thoroughly studied out the Grace side?

        If you’re coming here to try to convince me or the readers here that the Law way is the right way, then we should probably be done. If you want to agree to disagree, that’s cool, too. If you want to have a genuine discussion, I’m up for that.

        Just let me know how/if you’d like to proceed.

        -JGIG

  31. I’m not comparing keeping the Law to alcoholism, but rather the lust for righteousness to alcoholism. If you’re keeping the Law because it’s fun, or interesting, or because God has told you (specifically) to do so, that’s great! If you’re keeping the Law because you’re trying to be as righteous and holy as possible, or because you believe all Christians should keep the Law, you’re in trouble. The first bad route shows signs of the lust I spoke of, and it’s distracting from the real thing that makes us holy and righteous before God–Yeshua’s covering–like Martha trying very hard to please Yeshua, who was actually more pleased with Mary, who was spending time with Him. The second bad reason is just bad theology.

    Here’s what I’ve learned about lust, in terms of righteousness: righteousness is good; hungering after righteousness is good; following the dictates of your hunger is bad. Doing that only makes the hunger bigger, and you’ll never be satisfied. The best way to satisfy that hunger is to get the real food: the Bread of Life.

    • Yearning for righteous is not bad. Matthew 5:6 says it is a good thing. As for Martha, she was cooking / cleaning. Yeshua did not tell her to stop keeping Torah. That story has nothing to do with obeying the Torah. I mean no disrespect, but I just like to look at context.

      I like to think back to the Psalms of David. David knew the Law was perfect, and he tried hard to keep it (Psalm 119). But David still needed salvation (Psalm 9:14). I am not saved by the Law. Yeshua saves me. Keeping the Law is just my way of showing love for my Messiah. I see nothing wrong with that.

      • Yearning for righteousness is not a bad thing =o). Yet we see this in New Covenant writings:

        Galatians 2:21
        21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

        Just a note about context: Context is also understanding what covenant was in effect during the ministry of Christ. Before the New Covenant was cut with the Blood of Christ at the Cross, the Old Covenant was clearly in effect. Of course Jesus would not have told anyone to stop keeping Torah!

        As for Mary and Martha, being a ‘Martha’ kind of gal myself, I’ve always thought that if Mary had helped with some of the prep for guests ahead of time, they BOTH would have been sitting at the Feet of Jesus. Just sayin’ =oD. Jesus wasn’t scolding Martha so much as encouraging her to seize the moment and not miss out on a significant time – the work could wait – the moment would not.

        If you feel moved to ‘keep’ Law to show your love for Christ, then that is certainly your choice. Christ/God do not ask that of you. In fact, the entire letter to the Hebrews tells us why it’s unnecessary and actually dishonoring to the Work of Christ to do so.

      • Where does the book of Hebrews say it is dishonoring to try and keep the Torah? How am I dishonoring God by not eating pork or taking a Sabbath? Can you quote me?

      • Hebrews 10:29
        29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

        You are seeking sanctification via observance of Law. If you are in Christ, you have already been sanctified by His Blood. By going back to Law for sanctification, you are trampling the Blood and Work of Christ underfoot, thinking that you can establish a righteousness of your own.

        If you want to eat/not eat or observe one day over another, that’s fine, but don’t do it thinking that you’re honoring or obeying God by doing so; righteousness in the New Covenant does not come via the Law:

        Romans 1:17, 3:21-22
        17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

        21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

        Galatians 5:2
        2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

      • Trust me, I do not trample the grace of God. I rely on Yeshua’s sacrifice alone. I do not go killing livestock on Yom Kippur. :)

      • If you live by the Old Covenant, it’s not the Grace of God you trample, but His Son, and also Christ’s Blood of the Covenant:

        Hebrews 10:28-29
        28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

        That’s one side of the Law ‘keeping’ equation.

        The other side is that if you are not bringing offerings as the Old Covenant requires, then you are not keeping Old Covenant Law as it was given by God to Israel at Sinai.

        How does that honor and show love for God, exactly? I’m seriously asking the question.

      • JGIG, sorry if you thought my tone shifted. I guess the problem with typing is that you can’t hear tone. Rest assured, I did not and do not aim to sound angry.

        For the Law being picked apart, I believe the Law is very specific. For instance, I can not be breaking a Law that applies to men because I am not a man. The Law is very specific, that’s all. For fulfilling laws from Matt 5:17-19, I can see how Yeshua (Jesus) fulfilled the sacrificial laws (Hebrews goes into this). But as for how the other laws are fulfilled, I do not see that at all.

        For your studying question, I have studied. I’ve read the Bible 5 going on 6 times cover to cover. I’ve looked up Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic to get the full meaning of controversial verses. I’ve read commentaries from many different perspectives. I’ve studied a lot, but I’ve still got a lot to learn. We all do. What I see from many Grace-teachings is a lack of continuity with the OT and the NT. Many think the OT doesn’t count anymore or that it’s just for Jews or that the OT God acts differently than the NT God. To me, it’s all one cohesive book. I see Grace in the OT and Yeshua (Jesus) in the OT. In the OT, people kept the Law but were never assured or guaranteed of salvation. For the NT, people are guaranteed of salvation. In the NT, Yeshua (Jesus) is our sacrifice that needs not be repeated. He FULFILLS the sacrificial laws and guarantees us salvation. That’s the only difference to me.

        For who Yeshua (Jesus) is and what He came to accomplish, I would argue that all of that information is in the OT. Yeshua’s words in John 4:22 are harsh but true. Please don’t think this is an angry tone. John 4:22 is from Yeshua’s mouth, not mine. He said it, not me.

        My perspective is simple. We are saved by grace / faith ALONE and NOT by doing the law. However, I think a saved person would want to do the law purely out of love. Again, the whole law is great. I see no law that is harmful to us or that I think is bad. From Matthew 7:21-23, those who get turned away are those who God says “I don’t know you.” From 1 Corinthians 8:3 says that “the man who loves God is known by God.” John 14:15 and 1 John 5:3 says, “if you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”

        I’m fine with a discussion. But you can not explain away Matthew 5:17-19. That is my biggest deal-breaker verse. It’s straight from the mouth of Yeshua (Jesus), and it’s not even in the Old Testament–it’s a direct New Testament quote. Eternity is an awfully long time, and I do not want to be least in the kingdom. The biggest lie of the enemy–going back to the garden–is “Did God REALLY mean what He said?”

      • You wrote, “JGIG, sorry if you thought my tone shifted. I guess the problem with typing is that you can’t hear tone. Rest assured, I did not and do not aim to sound angry.”

        I didn’t say I perceived anger; simply a change in tone from a discussion about what each of us believes to you trying to prove Law-keepers right and those who walk in Grace and the Spirit as wrong =o).

        You wrote, “For the Law being picked apart, I believe the Law is very specific. For instance, I can not be breaking a Law that applies to men because I am not a man. The Law is very specific, that’s all. For fulfilling laws from Matt 5:17-19, I can see how Yeshua (Jesus) fulfilled the sacrificial laws (Hebrews goes into this). But as for how the other laws are fulfilled, I do not see that at all.”

        Then you are ignoring that Christ was both the Perfect Sacrifice providing forgiveness for the sins of the world, a gift freely given to those who put their faith and trust in His Work AND His station as our Perfected High Priest and what that means. New Priesthood, new law:

        Hebrews 7:11-12
        11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

        The Law was given as a comprehensive unit; there is no fulfilling of just the sacrificial laws – Christ either fulfilled it all or He fulfilled none of it. What did Christ Jesus Himself have to say?

        Matthew 5:17
        17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

        Fulfill what? Part of the Law? No. That is not what He promises. He promises to fulfill it, period. No qualifiers. And the Law as a working covenantal system has become obsolete in Christ. The letter to the Hebrews details why and God sealed the deal when He allowed the total and utter destruction of the Temple.

        You wrote, “For who Yeshua (Jesus) is and what He came to accomplish, I would argue that all of that information is in the OT. Yeshua’s words in John 4:22 are harsh but true. Please don’t think this is an angry tone. John 4:22 is from Yeshua’s mouth, not mine. He said it, not me.”

        Let’s look at the whole passage:

        John 4:21-24
        21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. [Jerusalem is pivotal in the keeping of the Law.] 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. [Yes, God chose Israel through which the Seed would come for the salvation of all tribes and nations.] 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

        Earlier in the book of John we see this:

        John 1:17
        17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

        Worshipping in spirit and truth are through and in Christ; grace and truth came through Him.

        You wrote, “My perspective is simple. We are saved by grace / faith ALONE and NOT by doing the law. However, I think a saved person would want to do the law purely out of love. Again, the whole law is great. I see no law that is harmful to us or that I think is bad.”

        Old Covenant Law, in light of the Work of Christ, is obsolete:

        Hebrews 8:13
        13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

        You wrote, “From Matthew 7:21-23, those who get turned away are those who God says ‘I don’t know you.’ From 1 Corinthians 8:3 says that ‘the man who loves God is known by God.’ John 14:15 and 1 John 5:3 says, ‘if you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”

        Matthew 7:21-23
        21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

        What does God require after Christ came?

        John 6:28-29
        28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

        29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

        1 John 3:21-24
        21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

        You wrote, “But you can not explain away Matthew 5:17-19. That is my biggest deal-breaker verse. It’s straight from the mouth of Yeshua (Jesus), and it’s not even in the Old Testament–it’s a direct New Testament quote.”

        If you choose to live by the Law, then you best buckle down and get to it, for your performance of the Law must exceed that of the Pharisees. And no playing at it, either – you must do everything that the Law requires of you. Remember that the Law is a comprehensive unit; if some of it is in effect, it is all in effect, including the sacrificial system. And don’t forget to add the heart motives and purity of thoughts to the mix as Jesus taught, magnifying the Law.

        Or you could recognize that Jesus was magnifying the Law, making it even more hopeless to keep, pointing mankind to his/her utter inability in keeping the Law, and their total need for Mercy and Grace, pointing to Christ Himself, Who would be the salvation that they so desperately needed. “For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

        You wrote, “Eternity is an awfully long time, and I do not want to be least in the kingdom.”

        But you said above, “However, I think a saved person would want to do the law purely out of love.”

        So status in the kingdom is what really motivates you? After all, eternity is an awfully long time . . .

        Let me submit to you that the Law-keeping mindset has brought you to a place where you are more concerned with your status in the kingdom by bringing other believers into Torah pursuance than with bringing the Lost into relationship with God in Christ. That’s not Good News.

        And finally you wrote, “The biggest lie of the enemy–going back to the garden–is ‘Did God REALLY mean what He said?'”

        Actually, that wasn’t the Big Lie. The Big Lie was this:

        Genesis 3:5
        5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

        That’s a lie addressed in the OP.

      • I wonder why you have two categories in your mind. Those who are Law-keepers versus those who walk in Grace / Spirit? Who says they can not be one category? Revelation 14:12 shows a combination of the two. Revelation 14:12 may shock you. Also, Jeremiah 31:33.

        You say Messiah fulfilled the whole Law, not just the sacrificial laws. I do not understand your logic. How does Messiah fulfill “do not murder”? So, can I go murder someone and feel no remorse because I’m no longer “under the law”? Why should I obey any laws if you say they’re all obsolete? Then, you’d probably say that loving others would not include killing them.

        Yeshua said we are to love God and love others. I think the problem with the modern church is that we do not love God. We may love others through acts of kindness and good deeds, but we do not love God. I don’t equate church membership and singing songs as loving God. And I also don’t equate believing in the Son as love (James 2:19). If someone truly loves God, they’d find out what He likes and do that for Him.

        All this ignoring of the law sounds to me like someone who just got the engagement ring on their finger and stops doing what their spouse likes because they’re “set” with a ring on their finger. That is not love.

        You can not read the Old Testament and get the impression that God does not love His Torah or love when His people obey it. With Yeshua, we can “check off the box” for sacrifices because He did that for us. But, as for the other laws, they are just ways for us to SHOW OUR LOVE for our King.

        When we ignore Yah’s Festivals, it’s just He invites us to His parties. We always used to go, but once we got the “ring on the finger,” we start to RSVP with “no.” When we ignore Yah’s Sabbath, it’s like He calls up and asks to hang out when we would always hang out together. But, once we get the “ring on the finger,” we say we’re all of a sudden too busy for our traditional date-night together. I could go on, but I’m NOT saying you’re not saved. I’m just saying you’re making Yah sad.

        Again, I do not try to keep the law for righteousness. It is how I show my LOVE. None of us keep the law perfectly, but we can at least try. We have two separate categories–loving God and loving others. How would you define loving God?

      • You err in defining commandments as Old Covenant Law every time you read them.

        Galatians 5:18 clearly says,
        18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

        The rest of your comment is simply argumentative, not taking into account the changing power of God’s Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. You pick specific sins like murder, for shock value, when someone led by the Spirit will clearly not commit murder.

        How do we define loving God in the New Covenant? By doing as He requires:

        John 6:28-29
        28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

        29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

        1 John 3:21-24
        21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

        When we share the Gospel with others and walk in love and service to them, bringing them into relationship with God – that is showing God love – showing others the way to Life that God has provided for them through His Son, Christ Jesus!

  32. I’m curious on your views. These are some verses on my mind.

    If the Law is obsolete, why do Yeshua’s followers do what they do in Luke 23:56 after He is crucified?

    If the Law is obsolete, why do people keep the Feast of Tabernacles in the 1000 year reign in Zechariah 14:16?

    If the Law is obsolete, why does Paul do a Nazarite vow in Acts 18:18?

    If the Law is obsolete, why would Yeshua mention the Sabbath in the End Times in Matthew 24:20?

    What do you think about Matthew 5:20?

    If works do not matter, what about Matthew 16:27?

    • Regarding Luke 23:56:
      They were still operating under the Old Covenant. Why wouldn’t they not keep the Sabbath? They had no real concept of all that Jesus accomplished until the Holy Spirit would inspire the writings that the Apostles themselves would pen. Jesus Himself told them:

      John 16:12-15
      12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

      Regarding Zechariah 14:
      You can read my take on that issue HERE, and also in the post Millennial Prophecy: Measuring Unrevealed Prophecies in Light of Revealed Truths

      Regarding the Nazarite Vow:
      Paul was pressured to participate and pay for others’ Nazarite Vow in order to pacify the Jews at Jerusalem. Note that Paul was not permitted to complete the Nazarite Vow; NO SACRIFICES were made by Paul. I’ve always found that to be significant, that the only account of an Apostle ever carrying out an actual sacrifice was stopped before it could be made.

      Regarding Matthew 24:20: Or in winter or for pregnant or nursing mothers – inconvenient times.

      Regarding Matthew 5:20: Jesus raising the bar. Mercy and Grace through faith in Christ are the only way to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. See John 6:28-29 and 1 John 3:21-24 above.

      Regarding Matthew 16:27: Let’s look at Matthew 16:24-27:
      24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

      You again measure ‘works’ by the shall and shall nots found in Torah Law. The work that God requires after the coming of Christ is this: That we believe on Christ and to love one another. See again John 6:28-29 and 1 John 3:21-24.

  33. Reblogged this on Daniel Lovett and commented:
    Reading this and would recommend for any who have been influenced by the Hebrew roots movement which apparently has been gaining steam lately.

  34. I am a Messianic believer and I have issue with a few of the statements you have made. First of all, I do not discount the Holy Spirit at all. As a matter of fact, I am more aware of his presence than ever before. Secondly, I do not discount Yeshua’s life and crucifixion. If anything, it actually helps me to understand more. We do not observe the law for salvation but, only out of Thanksgiving for what He did for us. He said “follow My commandments.” Was he not God incarnate? Those were His commandments. Also, if you examine the life of Yeshua and his disciples, you will find that they all followed the law rather closely (even unto death). If Yeshua truly did away with the law, why did the disciples continue to follow it for the remainder off their lives? If the law were truly abolished and all we have to do to show or love for him is to love thy neighbor, then what about worshiping idols and false Gods? Again, I feel it is necessary to resrate that we DO NOT observe the law for SALVATION.

    • Charley, welcome to JGIG.

      John 6:28-29
      28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
      29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

      John 13:34-35
      34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

      John 15:9-17
      9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

      The Disciples did not ‘follow the Law rather closely even unto death’. They were put to death because they preached Christ and Him Crucified, Buried, Risen, Ascended, and complete forgiveness through Him and New Life through His Holy Spirit. They were regularly KICKED OUT OF Synagogues and persecuted by those in Moses’ seat.

      You wrote, “If the law were truly abolished and all we have to do to show or love for him is to love thy neighbor, then what about worshiping idols and false Gods?”

      Charley, what are the fruits of the Spirit? What is the first fruit of the Spirit? Love. “If we are led by the Spirit, we are not under Law” (Gal. 5:18, followed several verses later by vs. 22-23, the Fruits of the Spirit). So the command to love God and love others – the ability to do that is not something that we achieve through the keeping of Law – it is through the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit in us that the fruit is borne.

      I heard a great quote the other day:

      “The Law cannot produce love in a person. It can only tell you what you must do that looks like love. ‘Don’t kill your neighbor’, ‘Don’t steal from your neighbor’, ‘Don’t commit adultery with your neighbor’s wife’, ‘Don’t lie to other people’. And when you do all these things it looks like you’re loving, but the only reason you’re doing them is ’cause you’re scared of God’s judgement. You’re not motivated by the true love of God; you’re motivated by fear. Love is the fulfillment of all the Law (Rom 13:8-10). When you have the love of God inside of you, when He’s given you a new heart and a new nature, and He’s put His love inside of you, you don’t need someone [something] to tell you, ‘Don’t steal, don’t kill, don’t hurt your neighbor, amen? Because you’re being moved by that true love of God.”

      What’s so amazing is that the command to love is also a Fruit of the Spirit (the first fruit, of which all the others are subsets, in my opinion). A branch does not strive to produce fruit; fruit is something that just happens if one is in the vine, receiving life. It is the same with us; we do not need to be commanded to breathe if we are alive; it’s just something we do. If we are in Christ, we love others; it is a Fruit of being in Christ – it’s just something we do.

      And Charley, I thoroughly understand that Law-keeping for most Torah folks is not about obtaining salvation. For many, however, it becomes a means by which they feel they must maintain their salvation. They see Law-keeping as the fruit of salvation, and if you are not keeping Law, then you must not really love God, and must not really be saved =o/. Taking it to it’s logical end, while most Torah folk would deny that they keep the Law to get saved, they would agree that they keep Law to stay saved. I don’t know you, and am not saying that you think these things (I hope you don’t) – these are my observations of the Law-keeping community in general. I address this issue in great depth HERE.

      I’m glad to see you here; feel free to poke around some more. I think you will find that I come to the table with a thorough understanding of the issues.

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

      • If there was nothing wrong with the Law why would Jesus/Yeshua have to come and die? He fulfilled the prophecy concerning Himself in Jeremiah 31:31-34:

        31“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

        Look at the words used: new, days are coming, not like…with their fathers, broke, law within them, on their hearts, remember their sin no more. The Old Testament/Tanach declares that the Law has been broken and a NEW one is coming. Jesus made that NEW covenant with us. The Law had hardened the heart of those who observed it, treating non-Jews as outcasts. The day that Jesus stood on the Mount and delivered His message, is the day that the LORD moved the Law inward, the day He wrote it on our heart. Jesus took the Law and made it about the inward appearance of man’s heart.

        21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment. Matt 5:21-22.
        Not only are not supposed to show anger by murdering, but now under the NEW covenant we can’t even be angry (this excludes righteous anger of in Jesus’ case in the temple).

        27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
        Just the mere lustful thought is adultery. Jesus takes the outward actions, which is what the Law was, an outward expression of righteousness as a symbol that they were God’s chosen to light unto the nations. “Do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing,” Jesus said that so that we would not be filled with arrogance, but filled with humility.

      • According to Paul, “So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.” (Rom. 7:12)

        Jesus didn’t come because there was anything wrong with the Law; it is a reflection of the standards of God.

        Jesus came because there was something wrong with us – we can’t keep the Law!

        Here’s a great audio teaching that explains the concepts of the New Covenant really well, with audio/download available and full study notes: The New Covenant

        Grace and peace,
        -JGIG

      • A friend of mine has, over the years, caused herself all sorts of relationship troubles due to her bad choices and habits. She’s aware of this, but seems unable or unwilling to “break orbit” from them. Part of this is due to self-condemnation. Contemplating this, and some of my own personal problems, I was thinking that whereas the Law might consider a person in terms of the rules-what we do or do not deserve–Love considers a person in terms of what is best for them. Does this young woman deserve better than her situation? No. That is what is best for her? No. The difference in her case between the Law and Love is the difference between being crushed by the Rock, or using the Rock as a stepping stone.

  35. How to tell a false teacher 101:

    Compare what they say with the bible:

    Galatians 5:16-26

    I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance — as I told you before — that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

  36. Nice article. I almost got sucked into this as well. It just didn’t make sense to me to have to follow all these laws. I would feel like a failure before I ever started. Also, to me when it says to follow Christs commands it’s always interpreted past tense. I personally don’t think that is entirely correct. I can’t tell you how many times my wife or I we’re obedient to His leading (command?) and we would see miraculous “coincidences”. Seriously, we could write a book!
    I shared with a friend who is now following what you describe, that to do Torah now you might as well hang a sign in front of you that says “Wet Paint, do not touch!”
    Also, for the bride to get herself ready doing Torah is not listed. What I believe we are to do is let Christ do “good deeds” through us. Not “murdering” or Committing adultery” or any of the others should be a forgone conclusion. The business of Christ being a blessing through us is what should be in the foreground.
    At least, as far as I can tell.

  37. We got sucked into the MJ movement in the early 90’s. My husband was raised in an Orthodox Jewish home, bar mitzvahed at 13, and left Judaism immediately after. So, MJism appealed.
    What really opened our eyes was attending an MJAA conference in which the speaker made a list of what are the MOST important considerations to believers. Number One was Israel; Number four was Yeshua!
    That was it. Add to that the confusion I had as I read Scripture. Some verses seemed to support MJism, some were opposed. I slammed my Bible shut in frustration.
    We wandered for many years through many different denominations but are now happily Catholic! Please don’t be too hard on the Catholic Church, OK? It is greatly mischaracterized and misunderstood.

    • Hi Jill,

      Welcome to JGIG!

      Thanks for telling a bit of your story here. If Jesus is first for you guys now, and you put your faith and trust in Him and love others, that’s what really counts, not your denomination. I don’t address Catholicism here – but purpose to stick to the core issues of the Gospel –

      Who Jesus is
      What He came to do
      What that actually accomplished, and
      Who believers are in Him.

      Our family personally knows many wonderful believers who are deeply committed to Christ from different denominational backgrounds – both former and current adherents. Unity within the Body does not mean that everyone agrees on everything, but that we agree on the core issues of the faith. I like this diagram:

      Issues of division arise when believers try to move outer-ring issues into the inner, core issue areas. The local body where we have fellowshipped for the last 18 years is really good at keeping core issues solid, showing deference in secondary issues, and loving those around them well. Our leadership and folks in our congregation are well-respected across denominational lines for their integrity, honor, and ability to love those around them well. Our particular fellowship doesn’t carry a denominational label, but I know of several local bodies that do, and I could say the same about them. A common thread I see in those kinds of places? JOY. \o/

      The Church at large takes a beating, especially on the internet, but I think that there are a lot of integral local bodies out there quietly going about the Master’s work as He leads them. And they are producing good Fruit.

      So if you’re in a church where there is proper focus on the core issues, there is loving service amongst the local body and to others, and good Fruit, I’m cool with that! You won’t find me bashing anyone – not even HRM/MJers – but showing where they err and deviate from the Gospel of Grace.

      Grace and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ,
      -JGIG

  38. I have a brother who is fully immersed in HR and believes that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. So, I’m a bit sensitive to digs at my church. I was referring to these comments in the Identity Crisis page (I think! I kept hitting other links…):

    “No facet of the Church is exempt – from Catholicism (which is indeed steeped in extra-biblical doctrine and practices) to Protestantism to Evangelicism to Fundamentalism, etc. – all are indicted by the HRM as at least being influenced by and at worst practicing paganism in one form or another throughout the ages.”

    • Understood. And to be frank, there is extra-biblical ‘stuff’ in all denominations, and the HRM latches onto and conflates all of that to their advantage. There are some things on which you and I would strongly disagree. That said, if you are in Christ, you are my sister in Him and I’m content to keep secondary issues secondary in the spirit of Romans 14.

      Don’t mistake my observations as disdain for you because of the church in which you choose to fellowship. I was an equal-opportunity digger there, if you’ll notice, and it was for the purpose of showing how those in the HRM take legitimate issues within the Body of Christ and exploit them for their purposes. And there are issues in the Body of Christ – She has been mixing Law and Grace for a long time and confused Herself, making her prone to deception and error.

      I unapologetically take a Grace position, and have Grace for those who do not =o).

  39. Hi, I am here because someone recommended I look into Jim Staley. I do not have any knowledge of the Hebrew Roots Movement. It appears that they hold to the Mosaic Covenant and if that is the case they are rejecting the New Covenant. On the other hand a lot of what I have read from you also seems to be rejection of God and His New Covenant.

    Some of your comments say that what is required for salvation is faith and of course this is true. The question is what is faith? If it is merely believing in God then even the demons have faith. Actually faith without works(living God’s commandments) is dead(Jam. 2:18-26). I think what you have failed to realize is that God’s triune moral law existed before the Mosaic Covenant(Gen 26:5) and is a part of the New Covenant(Heb.8:10). True faith requires dying to oneself and living for Jesus and if this is the case then it is impossible that we can discern good and evil ourselves(an attempt at being our own god Gen 3:5) and instead we look to the only Lawgiver(Isaiah 33:22, Jam. 4:12) for guidance as to what is good or evil. God’s triune moral law is the law of love. If you read Gal. 3:17-19 you will find that the law that no longer is in effect is that which “came four hundred and thirty years later” and “was added because of transgressions” in other words the Mosaic Covenant not God’s moral law.

    It all comes down to which G(g)od we serve, one of our own making or the One True God.

    Isaiah 64:6
    But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    Psalm 19:7-11
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    7 The law of the Lord is [a]perfect, restoring the soul;
    The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
    8 The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
    The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
    9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever;
    The judgments of the Lord are true; they are righteous altogether.
    10 They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
    Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
    11 Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
    In keeping them there is great reward.

    • Hi Roman Ropp; welcome to JGIG.

      I understand everything you’re saying, and if one disregards the Work of the Cross and the Perfect High Priesthood of Christ, instituted forever by an oath by God, one could think it’s okay to mix Law and Grace. It’s not. The Old Covenant is an obsolete covenantal system, rendered so by the Work and High Priesthood of Christ:

      The Wonder of our Great High Priest

      The commandments of God after the Cross are clear. John speaks of the commandments a lot in his writings, and internally defines them in 1 John 3:23-24:

      23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

  40. Jesus himself is the word… He is torah… Torah is law… So you want to do away with Jesus? If the whole bible old and new, Jesus is in both… Open your eyes, you are blinded..

    Proverbs 11:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish:but he that keepeth the law,happy is he… Messianics don’t live by works..you people are mis informed..

  41. Dear Tab and Roman,
    I encourage you both, please watch and listen to the video teaching by Pastor Aaron Budjen on “The Gospel” . One of the best presentation/teaching on the Gospel I’ve heard.

    All my hope is found in nothing less than Jesus Blood and righteousness:) There is no other name (“Jesus”) under heaven given to man by which he must be saved.

    Blessings! mark

  42. I had a thought this morning, and this seems the most relevant place to express it on these boards. I was considering Watchman Nee’s advice about prayer and sickness. He cautioned believers to always prayer, but to never make a Law about God’s particular directions. For instance, if John Pilgrim gets sick, human wisdom says “go see a doctor.” Godly wisdom says, “pray about it.” So John Pilgrim prays about, and God says “go to your brothers in Christ, and they shall pray over you, and you will be healed.” John obeys. But the next year John gets sick again (might need to work on stewardship, and dress warmly during winter months). If he’s inclined towards the Law, he’ll say “God doesn’t want me to see a doctor. He doesn’t want me to rely on human healing, but on divine healing.” If anyone tells him anything differently, he will tell them “I’m relying on God’s teaching, not man’s teaching.” But wait…. he’s forgetting one critical thing–he’s not praying about it, he’s just following a doctrine that he made up. Maybe this time, God wants him to see a doctor, for some reason. Maybe because God wants John to share the gospel with the doctor, who’s been going through a tough time. Or maybe the doctor is just the man to encourage John to take better care of himself to begin with.

    I know of a Messianic Jew who wrote a book about how God told her to keep the Sabbath, keep kosher, etc. She even stated His purpose-it was for HER to keep these things, so, among other things, she would understand her Jewishness better, as her pre-Christian life was very secular and non-traditional. After clearly stating God’s purpose, and clearly explaining what she was doing, and after experiencing the joys of obeying what God had told her to do, she then proceeded to extrapolate from all this that God wanted EVERYONE to keep the Law, and chalked up her joy to the Law, rather than to her obedience to God’s “rhema-word.” So the false teaching in this case, if her initial claim is correct (I believe it to be), came from a true experience, and her own soulishness took over. I can picture Jesus face-palming and saying “That’s… really, really not what I meant.”

  43. Could i ask a few questions on grace?

    • Of course! Welcome to JGIG =o).

      • 2Peter 2:20 seems to suggest a believer can loose their salvation. I know its referring to believers because Peter uses the same phrase as he used in 2Peter1:4 “having escaped the pollution of the world”

      • Oh, that’s easy! I’ve been there. As a believer living in sin, the believer is miserable! Let’s look at the passage:

        20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

        I know that as one in Christ, when I was in sin, I didn’t fit in with the World because I was in Christ, and I didn’t feel like I fit in with the Body, because I was living according to the flesh. It’s a very uncomfortable place to be. It didn’t mean that I had lost my salvation, however. It did make me want to stop being stupid, though =o).

      • Peter is definately talking about more than just your feelings here friend. To have a final state worse than the beginning means that they were worse off had they not believed at all.. ie. hell

        Maybe reread – in context – and i suggest reading Jude 3,4,5 too

      • If one is in Christ, and doing stupid stuff, they’re going to be miserable. Paul wrote letters to the Corinthians, some of whom were believers engaged in willful and blatant sinning. Did Paul condemn them to Hell? No – he built them up in who they were in Christ and exhorted them to live as such. He did say in 1 Cor. 5:5 “. . . hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord”, but that was clearly NOT a condemnation to Hell for sinning, but a consequence in THIS LIFE for sinning.

        As I read through the New Testament, I see a lot of that. There are two sets of people overall: believers and unbelievers. Believers are clearly sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1), not for their glory, but for God’s. If one is truly a believer and doing dumb stuff, trust me, they’re miserable. If they’re not miserable, then they likely are not a true believer.

        That’s not for me to judge, however, is it? Can I examine fruit and make choices about how much I’ll interact or invest time with someone? You bet. But their eternal state is God’s deal, not mine. And I may have no idea where God is in His working in that person’s life. Fruit comes with maturity, and even if someone’s been ‘saved’ for years, if they have been getting a Law diet or a mixture of Grace and Law diet, maturity has not come and neither has healthy fruit. That’s the beauty of the Gospel; it corrects error and reaches out to the Lost, so no matter the ailment, the Gospel is the Cure.

        The Gospel is Good News, and the Good News is Grace. And Grace is what teaches us to say no to ungodliness and to live upright lives. Is it okay to say, “Dude (or dudette, as the case may be), stop doing that stupid thing! It’s destructive to you and those around you!” Absolutely! Paul did a lot of that. He also was willing to let believers determined to do stupid things be handed over to Satan, for the destruction of their flesh, and to let them bear the consequences in this life.

        If you want to think that 2 Pet. 2:20 is talking about a believer who has fallen “out of salvation”, then you’re saying that we can sin our way out of the seal of the Holy Spirit, or that our sin can overcome the gift of the very righteousness of God that we were given when we believed (Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5). Well if that were true, then the flip side must also be true, and that would be that we could ‘righteous acts’ our way into salvation. And Scripture is clear that that is not an option.

        Check out this article by Paul Ellis, “Whose Medicine are You Taking? The Dangers of Taking Scripture Out of Context” He goes into this a bit more thoroughly and also addresses the Jude reference. He and I differ in that he lumps unbelievers in 2 Pet. 2, and then shifts to believers in chapter 3, but the Greek for ‘knowing’ or ‘knowledge’ (depending on the translation) there is the same word that clearly refers to believers in other verses, so I’m inclined to stick with my original interpretation on that one.

        I guess to tie it all up, don’t confuse earthly consequences in this life for the believer who is sinning with eternal damnation. For one thing, that puts a scale of severity on sin when it comes to being separated from God, and Scripture never does that; sin is sin is sin. If one is okay as long as they don’t sin the really bad sins or don’t sin too often, then who needs Jesus? To believe that way denies the power of the Cross. Christ either dealt with all sin at the Cross or He didn’t. What do the Scriptures say?

        The obedience of Christ made possible your entrance into the Kingdom of God by faith; the obedience of Christ keeps you there. It’s all Him; it’s all His Grace freely given to you.

      • Paul also couldn’t answer 2peter. I’m not interested in philosophy or opinions on what makes people miserable. Only what does 2peter mean without twisting into a predetermined doctrine

        Sent from my iPhone

        >

      • Silentseeker101 – “Could i ask a few questions on grace?”

        So were you really interested in asking questions or just looking for an argument?

        You asked your question, I gave you my answer.

        You’re free to believe whatever you like. It’s no skin off my nose =o).

        Grace and peace to you,
        -JGIG

  44. I here people say we must walk as Jesus walked and therefore as he is the example we must do what he did.
    The flaw is this. “Until Jesus died and rose from the dead he was under the law and thus walked according to the law of God.” This was so he could be the pure, and spotless lamb of God, blameless in the sight of the law. So His sacrafice was the sacrafice for all time. I can go on but I believe you understand the idea. Jesus submitted to the law to fulfill the requirements of the law to be the sacrafice that WE COULD NOT BE!!!

    Blessings
    Pastor David

    • Amen. I’ve often thought, when I contemplate the book of Revelation, about how everybody gets a white robe, a pure white robe, shiny and new. Except one person. His robes have bloodstains on them. He’s the only one in heaven without a pure white robe. Not because He’s a sinner, but because He’s not. He gave up His white robe so the rest of us could have one.

      • not everybody gets a white robe – only those who repent and overcome

      • IN HEAVEN. Sorry, didn’t clarify that. Obviously those who don’t repent and overcome don’t get make it to Heaven.

      • And – if I may clarify – it’s not repentance and overcoming which earns that robe; it is a free gift of Righteousness to all who believe (repent = change one’s mind). The overcoming is part of the fruit, not the root, of that imputed Righteousness and the New Life in Christ.

    • Absolutely beautiful David! Well said. As Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Jesus also said that he didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill it…as you said soooo well in your comments. The law has it place as a school master / tutor driving us to fall at the mercy and grace of God trusting in his remedy for the sin issue between man and God……The cross of Christ and His resurrection from the dead. The law shows us that none of us can be made right with God thru obedience to the law or “walk as Jesus walked” fulfilling the perfect law of God. Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law….because he was sinless! I know no other who can fulfill that requirement!

      There are so many believers that think by their acts of repentance, confession of sin and obedience makes them right with God. As the Gospel of John says, The Law was given thru Moses but Grace and Truth came thru Jesus Christ.

      Your comments fired me up David. I could go on as well, but I think you know what I mean.

      Blessings to you.

      Mark

      Bend Oregon

    • “For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged fnby the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, *but the doers of the Law will be justified.* For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, *in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts*, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”

      “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.”

      “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy *in Your name*, and *in Your name* cast out demons, and *in Your name* perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

      • ALamb, welcome to JGIG =o)!

        If keeping the Law is the standard for salvation/getting into the Kingdom, then what need had Christ to come and do the Work of the Cross?

        19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (from Gal. 2)

        Check out the following article for a brief overview of Romans 2:13 (one of your verses above) and the concept of man’s righteousness vs. God’s Righteousness: Hebrew Roots Movement – Man’s Righteousness or God’s Righteousness?

        Man’s righteousness is sand; God’s Righteousness in Christ is the Rock. Lawlessness is man’s attempts at keeping the Law; Righteousness is receiving the forgiveness, Righteousness, and New Life that are free gifts in Christ (Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5).

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