• What JGIG Is:

    Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

    The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

    Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

    These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

    It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

    Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

    To borrow from a Forest Gump quote, “Law ‘keepers’ are like a box of chocolates - ya never know what you’re gonna get!” The goal of JGIG is to be a resource to help those affected by the Torah pursuant movements to try and sort out what they’re dealing with. Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

    Be sure to click on the many embedded links within the posts here - there's lots of additional and related information for you to access that way, as well.

    Welcome, and may God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

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    Do you find it frustrating when you're directed to a link that does not exist? Me too! My apologies for any broken links you may find here.

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    Please let me know via the 'Contact JGIG' drop-down menu item under the 'About' tab at the top of this page if you come across a link that is broken so that I can try to repair or remove it. Please include the name of the post/article where you found the broken link as well as the link itself. You may be able to find content specified by doing a search and viewing a relocated or cached page/post/video.

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Being a Galatian

It is with a grateful heart that I’ve received the following testimony.    From talking to those who have come out of Law-keeping sects, I understand that it can be a difficult thing to write about the experience.  Many thanks to “GirlLuvs2Read” for the following.

This testimony will also appear on the Testimonies Page here at JGIG.

If you have a testimony you’d like to share about coming out of the Hebrew Roots Movement (or a variation of the HRM), please email me at joyfullygrowingingrace@gmail dot com.

Every blessing,
-JGIG

 

Being a Galatian

by “GirlLuvs2Read”

One of the frustrating things I have learned about life is that you can be sincere in your convictions, and still be wrong. I have also learned that God’s grace will not let us go, even after we’ve strayed. He is always willing to leave the 99 others, and come get us. When I entered the Hebrew Roots/Torah Observant (HR/TO) movement, I got to experience this first hand.

I had struggled for years with various sicknesses, searching books, articles, and the internet for home remedies and cures, after doctors had not been able to help me. One night I was up watching TV, and a talk show host had a woman on her show promoting the health benefits of the raw food diet. It’s not really a diet, but more of a lifestyle of only eating raw fruits, vegetables, grains, etc. Imagine a vegan diet, only all uncooked. It was extreme, but many people had supposedly been cured of various health problems as a result of choosing to only eat raw foods, so it was worth a try. I gave away all of my food that required cooking, and began eating basically only salads, fruit, and nuts.

Looking back, I know that this lasted only 3 weeks, but at the time, I was in the frame of mind that this would be my new lifestyle, and I was in it for the long haul. Naturally my friends and family were concerned, but more so my family. I’m already pretty skinny, and my family foresaw that my removing meat and grains from my diet would cause me to lose weight, and be unhealthy in general. They were right. When I have my convictions about something, I can be relentlessly stubborn, until my convictions on the matter genuinely change. I had books and experts who backed up my claims that the raw food diet was not only the healthiest, but also most biblical choice. After all, in the beginning, what did Adam and Eve eat?

A friend of mine from the young adults ministry at my church lovingly challenged me to consider that my viewpoint was on the extreme side, and reminded me of the wisdom in being balanced. She recommended that I consult scripture to see what God actually said about food. If eating cooked food was immoral and unhealthy, surely God would have had something to say about it. So I went through the bible with my concordance to see what it said about food, meat, cooking, and so on. Whatever the bible said, is what I would take as truth. What I found was that, yes, originally Adam and Eve ate only fruits and vegetables, but later God allowed them to eat meat and grains. And of course, they were cooked, as they were forbidden to eat blood. (It’s not that I didn’t know this beforehand, but it’s interesting how you can conveniently forget to consult the whole counsel of scripture when trying to prove your point.)

Later on, when Moses gave the law to Israel, God had much more to say about what could and could not be eaten. There is also a promise of good health and the removal of diseases to those that follow God’s law, and a promise of punishment and curse to those who do not. Perhaps this was the key that we had all overlooked. Maybe we were all suffering from various diseases because we weren’t following all of the law. As believers we do follow a good portion of the law, but we completely ignore God’s commands regarding food. Maybe we were wrong after all. Maybe this was something God cared about.

I sought to research the possibility that there was wisdom in following God’s law in its entirety, including the parts about food. I found myself on Amazon.com looking for books on biblical eating and the law, and discovered a whole genre of books on Torah observance. The two books I found especially helpful in my quest were “Holy Cow! Does God Care about What We Eat?” and “Restoration: Returning the Torah of God to the Disciples of Jesus” (which I eventually wrote a review of on Amazon). After reading them, I was thoroughly convinced that, even as new covenant believers, Christians did have a responsibility to observe the law, except for the commandments that were absolutely impossible or inappropriate for us to follow (ie, stoning someone for working on the Sabbath).

Along the way I also became a major fan of websites that were a one-stop-shop for all things Torah Observant, especially First Fruits of Zion. These ministries taught that while salvation is received solely by having faith in Jesus, that a lifestyle of righteousness can only be achieved through obeying the law. After all, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Of course, their definition of “fulfillment” was that Jesus was the fullness or embodiment of the law. Therefore, how could we say we loved him, and disobey his commandments? He even said that if you loved him, you would obey his commands. So goes the logic of the Torah observant movement. In my experience, those who teach such things are precious and sincere believers who are simply trying to teach what they believe to be the true and honorable way of righteous living, even though they’re wrong. At the time, their resources were so dear to me, because I felt I was being reconnected with a part of my faith that I had been deceived out of embracing. And I consumed all of the books and website articles fueled by a desire to learn all that could about the law, so that I could put as much of it into practice as possible.

I began to learn that it was necessary for us to understand the Hebrew culture, idioms, and language, in order for us to truly understand scripture, which in turn made me doubt the accuracy of any mainstream Christian interpretations of scripture, and lose faith in our ability to even understand scripture without the aid of those who are experts on the ins and outs of the Hebrew culture and language. (HR/TO proponents argue that the Greek/Western mindset misinterprets scripture, as it doesn’t understand its context, which has resulted in most in Christendom turning its back on the Torah.) This led me to trust the teachings of those within the TO movement over others because they sought to interpret scripture from the information they received in their studies of Hebrew culture and language. Little did I know, therein laid the problem. Their sources for this information were unbelieving Jewish rabbis and their teachings.

With my beliefs changing so much, I made the decision to leave the church I had been a part of for almost 5 years, and set out on my own. Around the same time, the biblical holidays began to creep up on the calendar, and I found myself, for the first time in search of a place to celebrate Yom Kippur. Surfing around the internet I found a Christian congregation that met on Saturdays in a church in a nearby town, that was very much into celebrating the Hebrew roots of the Christian faith. So I decided to go and spend the holiday there. Much to my relief, although it was a small congregation, it was definitely multicultural, which I was sincerely thankful for. I was picturing myself, not only standing out as a visitor, but also as being the only black person in a crowd of Messianic Jews. Thankfully God saw fit to spare me from what could have been a very awkward situation. The congregation was made up of a small close-knit family of believers that danced together, sang Messianic songs together, and ate potluck lunch together after service.

I stayed with this congregation for about 2 months, until one Saturday during the after service brunch, I overheard, a family that had recently returned from a trip to Malaysia retelling some of the disappointing discoveries they had made regarding the Messianic congregations they had visited while on their trip. Unfortunately some of the congregations were actually embracing the Torah or Old Testament law, and were sincerely doing everything they could to follow its commandments, and were somehow blinded to the fact that the law of Moses was no longer applicable for believers today. Unfortunately the views of this church just weren’t getting it done for me. If I’m going to do something, especially if it involves seeking the Lord, I’m gonna do it all the way. Not half way. It’s either all or nothing. And somehow they were able to justify upholding half of the law, but not all of it. So I left, very distraught over having to break fellowship with friends I had just made, but knowing that it was the right thing to do. I hated the idea of being labeled a church hopper, but the gap in our beliefs would not allow me to sincerely fellowship with them without feeling this thick wall of awkwardness between us. Maybe eventually they would come around.

I left, and decided that while I was in between churches I would listen to sermons online. (Along the way I had discovered some Messianic congregations that were made up of Jews and non-Jews (I have always hated the word Gentiles….), that had websites and archives of their sermons. I have to admit that I truly enjoyed Saturdays by this point. It became a day for me to stop everything and spend a whole day reading the Bible if I wanted to and relaxing, which totally beat spending the day doing chores.

As I began to implement various aspects of the law in my life, my family became very concerned. My dad, who’s not a Christian, thought I was taking my religious beliefs way too far, and my mother, who is a Christian, thought I had wandered away from genuine Christianity. She often tried to talk “sense” into me or to get me to break the Sabbath on purpose, because she didn’t see the value in it. Both of my parents thought I was trying to be Jewish, and as a joke my dad wrapped my birthday presents in Hanukkah themed giftwrap that year (my birthday is in December, so Hanukkah themed paper was plenty available). I did find it a little funny, but I was also kind of hurt. I have great respect for Jewish people and their heritage, but I really wasn’t trying to be Jewish. I was just trying to be a biblical Christian. But no one in my social circle (with the exception of a few mainly non-Christian friends) seemed to really get that.

God eventually did allow some of my mother’s words to sink in to help bring me out of the deception I had wandered into, but it was not before I saw the unhealthy side of the TO/HR movement and its effects on Christians.

The Journey Out
Along the way there were certain aspects of the TO/HR movement that bothered me. Initially it seemed that its proponents taught that Christians had an obligation to follow the written law of the bible, just as Jews did, but that we had no responsibility whatsoever to follow them in observing the oral Torah of the Talmud. This was fine by me because I wanted to be free of the extra biblical traditions of men. But then I found that even the TO/HR proponents were evolving in their understanding of what it meant to be a biblical Christian. They began to see non-Messianic rabbis as “fathers” of the faith whose authority Christians were obligated to come under. They believed that aside from its exclusion of Jesus Christ as savior, that rabbinic Judaism, complete with praying 3 times a day facing Jerusalem, learning and obeying the Talmud, and even delving into mystical practices (Kabbalah) should be an integral part of the Christian’s faith. I actually was able to be deceived by their teachings on prayer. I remember owning a DVD series produced by First Fruits of Zion called Praying in the Spirit, that took the position that praying pre-written prayers from a prayer book 3 times a day facing Jerusalem was the way one prayed “in the spirit” and “without ceasing”. It bothers me now to think about how I used to take mini breaks at work to pray, and actually brought a tiny compass along with me to ensure that I was indeed facing Jerusalem when I did it.

While I was able to be deceived into thinking that praying set prayers according to Jewish tradition was a biblical commandment, I could never buy into the idea that unbelieving Jewish rabbis had a place of spiritual authority over me or other Christians. Wandering into the territory of mystical Judaism and obeying the teachings of the Talmud stood out as being clearly blasphemous to me. What was worse was to hear messages and read articles about how many Christians were beginning to abandon Jesus altogether for Orthodox Judaism, and how we needed to work to prevent this trend from spreading further into the TO Christian community. Somehow people who began studying the Torah and Hebrew idioms and culture out of a sincere love for Jesus, wound up growing farther and farther away from him. One day they were pursuing the “Jewishness of Jesus”, and the next they decided that Jewishness in and of itself was their savior, and that Jesus was merely a deceiver. Unexpected, but the reality none the less.

I found myself utterly disappointed with the HR/TO movement. Here I was thinking I had finally found rest within a movement that adhered to all of the true teachings of the bible, and instead I found people zealous for the vain and destructive teachings of men (men who didn’t even believe that Jesus was their Messiah). I wanted to distance myself from the movement, while holding on to what I felt was true.

While I was having my experience with the HR/TO movement, I was also dealing with another issue that was very frightening and perplexing. I won’t go into the details of what was happening, as that would be a book all on its own. I will suffice it to say that it required me to contact believers who worked in deliverance ministries for their assistance, as neither I nor anyone I knew was equipped to handle it.

The first deliverance minister I contacted, I had discovered through a Messianic (HR/TO) congregation’s website. They had an archive of online sermons you could listen to, and I had heard a few of this brother’s messages. While speaking with him about my issues, he explained to me, among other things, that he and his wife were no longer a part of the Messianic Congregation. He no longer believed the things he had been teaching, and thought the ideas of the HR/TO movement were really just false interpretations of Jewish rabbis.

I was completely shocked, and kind of felt like this man was a traitor. I had believed his messages, and now he no longer did. Not only that, but as I explained to him how I was practicing my faith, he kindly suggested that it was not good for me to be without the fellowship of other believers, listening to online sermons in my room. While no church was perfect, he strongly believed that I would be better off in a church, connected to other Christians, however flawed they may be, than I would be going it alone. I left the conversation feeling somewhat betrayed by this man’s departure from the HR/TO movement to return to mainstream Christianity, but his words left a mark on me.

The strange disturbances persisted, so I contacted another deliverance minister. This one was also a part of the HR/TO movement, but believed that the writings of Paul were evil and untrustworthy because he advised people not to follow the law of the old covenant. Though I actually began to consider this as a possibility, in the end, God was able to use this individual’s perspective to correct my thinking. Up until that time, I had bought into the HR notion that Western interpretations of scripture were unreliable due to their lack of understanding of the Hebrew culture and language. Anything written in the New Testament that seemed to indicate that we were no longer under the law was actually pro-Torah observance. We had just been interpreting those passages incorrectly. Works like The Complete Jewish Bible were able to translate those verses “correctly”, and restore the proper pro-Torah meaning. But this deliverance minister did not believe those arguments for a second. He thought the anti-law message was quite clear, and that there was no mistake about it. Paul preached an end to the law for Gentiles, and I was beginning to see it.

Because months later the problems continued, I contacted my last deliverance ministry. It was a couple in New Jersey, who prayed with me over the phone. They were just “regular” Christians, and before getting to the meat of our conversation they wanted to make sure I was a Christian too. They asked me some standard litmus test questions, one of them being “How do you know you have salvation?” I explained to them that I was confident that I had salvation because I believed that Jesus had died on the cross for my sins and because I obeyed his commandments. That seemed fair enough to them, and having satisfied them with my answer, we moved on. However, there was a major problem. When I said that I obeyed Jesus’ commandments, I wasn’t just talking about righteous living that comes from loving God and loving one another. I was referring to the law. When I heard these words come out of my mouth I realized that my theology was dangerously off course. I now believed I was saved because of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross and because I obeyed the Mosaic laws.

Then I realized that I no longer truly understood why I needed Jesus at all. If I had the law, and obeying it made me a righteous person, what was Jesus’ role? After speaking to this couple, I noticed that I felt very far away from Jesus. I can’t say I’ve ever felt his presence in a noticeable way, but I certainly felt that there was a distance between us now. How could I, in my desire to love Jesus and obey him, have ended up feeling like we were strangers? Unfortunately my good intentions had not been enough. I found myself, after having been raised in church my whole life, and saved since 6 or 7, now needing to relearn the basics of my faith all over again. Above all, I needed to understand why Jesus came to earth, and why I needed him.

I remember having seen Joseph Prince give messages on his show on Daystar (a Christian TV network). His ministry focused on the grace of God, saved by grace and grace alone, and fully embracing the new covenant. Originally I was against this pastor’s teachings because he rejected the importance of the law, but now his words were exactly what I needed to hear. I began watching his sermons, and purchased his book Destined to Reign. It sounds like the kind of book that focuses on being the best in life and constantly receiving blessings, so initially I wasn’t interested. But it was actually exactly what I needed. It explained the purpose and limitations of the old covenant, why Jesus died on the cross, what he accomplished in doing so, and how the righteous live in the new covenant. This book played an enormous role in correcting my thinking and restoring Jesus to his rightful place in my life, and for that I am extremely thankful.

During this period of relearning my faith I also reread Paul’s letter to the Galatians, and all of the sudden it made so much sense. Galatians was written to people just like me, Gentile Christians who had been deceived into believing they had to obey the law of Moses. When you have lived as a Galatian, Paul’s words really come alive, and speak so clearly to your situation. I thank God that he preserved his letter for us.

Now that my mindset was changed, my lifestyle began to change as well. I allowed myself to eat my favorite foods, even if they were considered unclean or weren’t kosher. I no longer felt the need to celebrate biblical holidays, and allowed myself to do whatever I wanted Friday night and all day Saturday (though I still firmly believe that the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week, not Sunday, and that as human beings we do need rest for our physical bodies). I stopped trying to learn about the Jewish mindset on biblical issues, and regained trust in the scholarship behind mainstream bible translations. My Complete Jewish Bible and all those other HR/TO books and resources went in the trash, and I eventually started attending a regular church.

At the end of it all, I had learned many lessons:

  • I saw that when I strayed, God would leave the 99 other sheep, and come and get me, and bring me back to the truth.
  • You can either have the law or Jesus. You cannot mix the old and new covenant. It’s all or nothing.
  • No one alive today can keep the law in full. There is no temple, no Levitical priesthood, and most of us don’t live in Israel, so we cannot live by the law even if we wanted to.
  • Beware of the yeast of the Pharisses! The yeast is their teachings. Today’s unbelieving Jewish rabbis are the religious descendants of the Pharisees. They believe and teach what the Pharisees taught. Their teachings are hostile to the gospel, and will lead believers away from Jesus Christ, even if they have good intentions.
  • The heart of our faith is found in Jesus’ death and resurrection, and faith in him and his message. The gospel is meant to be easily accessible and understood by people of all cultures and languages. Jesus and his blood are the “roots” of the Christian faith, not his culture or the language he spoke. They may be the backdrop of the events of his life, but they can become a major distraction to God himself, if we let them.

The above is an excerpt from my life as a believer. The events took place during 2007 and 2008. Today I cling solely to the new covenant, and generally feel most comfortable fellowshipping in house church settings (though I believe those too have much room for growth).

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Thanks again to “GirlLuvs2Read” for the above contribution.

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70 Responses

  1. I’ve asked to be removed from this websites email list plaese refraim from sending me these posts. I find little to no fruit or love from this site and regaurd it as non useful in my walk with Christ. Please once again DO NOT SEND ANYMORE EMAILS TO ME! May Yahwej bless and keep you May His face shine upone you may He grant you his Shalom.

    • Hi Brandon,

      I hope you and your family are doing well, especially that new baby =o)!

      Brandon, you’ve expressed frustration over this before. I cannot unsubscribe you. You have to do that yourself. At the bottom of any email you get from WordPress, there is this:

      WordPress.com | Thanks for flying with WordPress!
      Manage Subscriptions | Unsubscribe | Express yourself. Start a blog.

      I bolded the part where you can click (in your email) to unsubscribe. I think you subscribed to comments on another post, as well. If you get another email from WordPress because another comment that you subbed for gets posted, just click the ‘Unsubscribe’ link at the bottom of the page and that will take care of it.

      Thanks for the blessings! Every blessing to you and your family as well,
      -JGIG

    • My oh my, Brandon, I see you are still here. Amazing! How many months ago was it when we first met here? You said then you were going to leave. Now, I see you are still talking about leaving, but still here.
      No disrespect, Brandon, (well maybe some), but I wish you would leave because the only hatred I see here comes from you.
      I really hope you will allow God to guide you to a right relationship with God. Only then will you be able to see some unfortunate things about yourself that are so obvious to many of us, simply by the words you choose to write.

      Love in Christ,
      Herb

  2. We all have much room for growth, GirlLuvs2Read. But your post and explanation of your experience was most uplifting to me. I read it this morning and had to come back and read it again. What a wonderful thing for you to do! Surely this type of Christians helping Christians in love is the way the Body of Christ grows Spiritually.

    Love in Christ,
    Herb

    • If any of it is encouraging or helpful, then awesome! It helps me feel like that year wasn’t wasted time in my life as a believer.

  3. Just a note i find much love here, it just when truth smacks some people in the face, sometimes the result is, they run away

    • Aw, Travis, cut Brandon a little slack =o). Some plant seeds, some water them, but it is God Who makes them grow. Sometimes we get to see what God does, sometimes we need to be content to leave it totally in His hands without ever seeing the fruits of our labors. And then there is the issue of dirt. There’s no telling what kind of dirt we’re sowing in, ya know? All we can do is be faithful to the Word and what God calls us to do and let God be God.

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

  4. What an amazing story… and how much I relate to soooo much of it. Christ is so awesome to bring us to Himself and open our eyes. I find the deliverance issue extremely interesting as this is also an element in my story I left out simply because it does open an entirely different can of worms, but was a significant aspect of our experience as well. We became involved with a HR leader who was also very much into deliverance ministry – although the fruit of the activity created more problems than it solved, and I am still confused about what happened and what didn’t work – other than that we were taking our spiritual authority as being based in our obedience plus Christ, not Christ alone. Thanks so much for posting this testimony and GirlLuvs2Read is reading comments, I rejoice with you in our real deliverance!! <3

  5. I hope this will be the last email I receive from this website but while I’m here I have to say you seem a little hipocritical calling one set of teachers false but allowing the praise of one of the most Heritical teachers in Christdom today. Joseph Prince teaches that repentance is not needed will not teach turning away from sin and is a huge prosperity teacher teaching by far the greasyest grace message today. He also teaches that since Jesus died on the cross to take the wrath of God that Yahweh can not then judge the world through wrath eventhough Rev. Cleary teaches otherwise. And Travis sir you don’t know what truth I embrace or my lifestyle nor even the hearts of the men whom you have never meet yet choose to slander with one of the worst vile names a Christian could call another believer ‘false teacher’. I as I have stated numerous times on this website I have sat down with several of these men spoke to them face to face spoken through text and email with others spoken of on this site and disagree with them on issues and agree on others have you or the author of this site my guess is no. I am glad the girl is happy now after finding a ministry she feels good in at the same time they should teach her not to judge those who don’t see it her way.

    • I will say that I don’t buy into the prosperity gospel. I also don’t agree with everything Joseph Prince teaches. Initially I wasn’t interested in his book “Destined to Reign” because I thought it was just going to be another how to get God to bless you financially all the time. While I would love for God to bless me with money all the time, I just don’t believe that he will or does, even for those of great faith. I realize that many people have been hurt by all of those messages on prosperity, but this particular book by Joseph Prince was different. It was almost entirely about Christ’s finished work on the cross, the purpose of grace vs the law, the new covenant, etc. At a time when I needed to relearn the basics of my faith, this particular book met me perfectly where I was, and relaid the foundation.

      When I had Daystar (Christian tv network) I would watch his programs, and he is very much grace grace grace. Saved by grace, live by grace. Though I have never heard him say that we don’t need to repent of sin or that those who do not trust in Jesus for their salvation won’t receive punishment. But if you have read or heard him say that, I won’t invalidate your experiences. If Joseph Prince is wrong in preaching prosperity, fine. But God used a flawed preacher to correct my thinking in this crucial area.

      • What a great sentence from GirlLuvs2Read, “But God used a flawed preacher to correct my thinking in this crucial area.” She expresses an awesome and wonderful truth that we Christians seem to have difficulty accepting.

        Oh, we readily accept the truth that all preachers are flawed, even as every other human is flawed. But the great truth we stumble over is that God is doing the work in the first place, and God is not hindered in any way just because the person God chooses to use is flawed. We make a big mistake when we rely upon our own judgement and decide not to listen to anyone. For all we know, we might be cutting off some communication God wants us to hear. I deliberately said “we” because I have done it and know other people do it.

        Love in Christ,
        Herb

      • “But God used a flawed preacher to correct my thinking in this crucial area.” is a truth we need to pay attention to, as God has given flawed people giftings and talents by which to minister to His Body.

        How many times have we heard from Law ‘keepers’ when we disagree with a teaching or reject a teacher based on core issues “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater”?? If I only had a dime . . . =o)!

        I will even concede that the Law ‘keeping’ sects have a point in that ‘Churchianity’ has dropped the ball on teaching believers to be obedient to the will of God. But not in the sense of observing Mosaic Covenant Law as Law ‘keepers’ would assert is the express will of God – rather in the sense of loving God and loving others – putting them ahead of ourselves. Many Christians are not taught about what it means to love others sacrificially. Many are taught that God want to bless bless bless them (and He does, though not always in the health and wealth department), but they often leave out the part that He often uses US as His means of blessing others (serve serve serve)! On that note, think about how much the ‘health and wealth’ crowd and the HRMers have in common when it comes to earning the blessings of God; if you obey the Law you will be blessed, if not you will be cursed’ and ‘ but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven’. Is our goal/motivation supposed to be to ‘get blessings’ or to avoid being called ‘the least’ in the kingdom? Is that really what God wants us to care about?

        It is our responsibility as believers to

        1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
        19 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.

        As for receiving nuggets of truth, that has happened to me on more than one occasion as well. For example, while in college, I was privileged to hear Francis Schaeffer preach in 1984 shortly before his death. I had gone to a Christian high school where it was assumed that if you were going into full-time Christian service that you would have to become a pastor or a missionary or a pastor’s or missionary’s wife. Schaeffer’s teaching shattered that assumption as he taught that we are full-time Christians – who in turn are called to whatever God has given us talents/giftings/desires for, whether that be a construction worker, doctor, nurse, garbage man/woman, lawyer, husband, wife, or yes – a pastor or a missionary. Wow!

        Colossians 3:5-
        5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[b] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

        12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

        15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

        Do I agree with everything Francis Schaeffer taught/believed? No. As I’ve grown in maturity I’ve learned to appreciate much of what he tried to accomplish and taught in his lifetime, but would disagree with his Calvinist leanings. Some have asserted that Schaeffer was a ‘soft-Dominionist’, a theology with which I very much disagree, but the more I look into that charge, the less credence I give it (see this article).

        Francis Schaeffer was one of those people in my life (I had also seen the video series, “Whatever Happened to the Human Race” when I was about 12) who encouraged me to THINK. From a young age I knew that I was supposed to ‘test everything’, thanks, in part, to being exposed to the teaching of Francis Schaeffer.

        God uses flawed people. That’s just a fact of life. There are those who come out of Law ‘keeping’ sects who find it hard to receive any teaching from anyone because they’re torn by 1) looking for perfection (‘be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect’) and 2) the inability to trust anyone when they realize how much false teaching they’ve been subjected to at the hand of others. Testing everything for someone who has come out of a false belief system can become an exercise in hyper-critical examination, looking for every possible flaw in every teaching so that they will not be deceived again. I would imagine that to be exhausting. It’s not the rest we are given in Jesus. Yet what are we to do?

        Reading the Bible for what it actually says, becoming familiar with the Word of God is a big part of that. Asking God to guard our hearts and minds is another part of the equation, as well as praying for wisdom and discernment. God says to ask for such things and He will freely give them. Another thing to keep in mind is that beyond the core issues of the faith, we are not required to have it ‘all figured out’ (or even agree on, *gasp*). There are some things in God’s Word/Plan that we will not understand until they come to pass. If ANYONE tells you that they have it all figured out, they’re fibbing.

        On my statement of faith page I wrote:

        Regarding What I Believe . . .
        In the core, indisputable issues of the faith we are to have unity. “There is one Body and one Spirit . . . there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of us all . . .” “. . . For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified . . .” (Ephesians 4:4-6; 1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

        In the disputable, secondary matters, we are to show deference to each other. “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters . . .” We, as the Church (the Body of Christ) are to put into practice passages like Romans 14 and 15. Two believers of opposing views on secondary disputable matters in reality view the other as the weaker brother. In which case we are to show deference to one another.

        Denominational lines have too often been drawn as battle lines instead of areas of preference within the circle of secondary, disputable matters. It’s okay to gravitate and worship with those who are like-minded (as long as that’s where God has directed you to be), but we need to remember that the Church should be about relationship – first and foremost with God – and then with each other. That’s relationship with the whole Body of Christ, not just among those who agree with each other on every point of a systematic theology.

        We as the Body of Christ need to walk in the model of 1 Corinthians chapters 12, 13, and 14, recognizing that differences in the Body of Christ in the form of giftings and talents are part of God’s design for the functioning of the Church. If some of the “parts” are more focused on their “pet theology” than on loving God or their neighbor, then there’s a problem. But the design of the Body of Christ as God has set it up is one of necessary differences, (talents and giftings), rooted and grounded in Christ, with the underlying framework being love.

        What about error? Should we stay silent for the sake of “unity”? If a doctrine or systematic theology results in the diminishing or cancellation of the Gospel, one must speak out. Likewise if there is any doctrine or teaching that seeks to put believers under a yoke of bondage, one must speak out. The epistles to the young Church are full of admonition and instruction and at times, downright rebuke! Jesus and the restored life and freedom He purchased for us must never be minimized. Scripture does not support any Jesus + (insert pet formula here) theology.

        We need to be careful to be faithful to test everything without becoming ‘heresy hunters’ and being paranoid. It’s a fine line . . .

        -JGIG

      • Funny how its only Messianic Jews you choose to admonish sister.

      • Thanks, GirlLuvs2Read. I have seen Joseph Prince several times as I channel surfed in the wee hours while nursing wee ones =o). His message of Grace is spot on. I have not heard him say that repentance is not necessary – what I have heard Prince talk about mostly is the position of the believer – I have heard him preach to those who have already repented, having recognized their position before a Holy God and their need for Jesus Christ. I did a little digging on this, and found Prince described as an ‘antinomian’ (big surprise, ha!) by some.


        Here’s a link
        to one who transcribed a teaching by Prince (I did not check the transcription to verify its accuracy) to ‘prove’ that “Joseph Prince says turning away from sin not necessary for justification or forgiveness”.

        The Scripture that immediately comes to mind when I see a phrase set up like that is this:

        Romans 5:8
        8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

        Paul goes on to detail about how sin entered the world and how God purposed to bring righteousness back into the world . . . then says this:

        Romans 6:1-14
        1 What shall we [those who already believe in Christ] say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

        5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

        8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

        11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

        The saving comes before the ‘cleaning up’. The author of the post even concedes this: Greek word ‘Metanoia’ does mean changing the mind. But it is not any old change of the mind. For example, it is not changing my opinions on the doctrine of salvation that constitutes repentance any more than changing my mind on which kind of music I like the most. Changing your mind about sin is what is required. means not wanting it any more. That is repentance. And the Hebrew concept of repentance implies strongly a turning away from sin. You cannot cling to your sins and say that you have ‘repented’.”

        What the author of the post fails to mention is that we do not prepare ourselves to become worthy of the Grace of God. We do come to Him dirty and full of sin. We are incapable of truly turning away from sin on our own – we are slaves to sin. We NEED JESUS. It is the recognition of that need and the confession of Who He is and what He did that we are saved:

        Romans 10:9-13
        9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

        And this, where Jesus tells His disciples that HE MUST wash them or . . . :

        John 13:6-9
        6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
        7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”
        8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”
        Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
        9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

        The author quotes Prince in the following as a support to his claim of Prince’s heresy: JP – “JP: Now Pastor Prince, the Bible teaches on repentance! Yes. Repentance means change your mind. You know what? When Jesus came on the scene he said, ‘Repent and believe the gospel’. Change your mind about saving yourself, about your self effort, and believe the good news. Repent and believe the gospel. Its repentance from unbelief, from not believing God is so good, from not believing that the news that God has given is so good, what Jesus did is so good, the effects is so good, repent of that, and start to believe the good news. Your sins are truly forgiven. Your sins are truly forgiven.”

        When one puts their faith and trust in Christ, are they a forgiven person or not? The Bible says they are. While the forgiveness of sin has already been dealt with at the Cross and with the Resurrection, it is the sanctification of the believer via the Holy Spirit where behavioral sin is dealt with in the believer. God is the One Who provides forgiveness and He is the One Who is faithful to make us New Creations and complete the work He began in us:

        Philippians 1:3-6
        3 I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

        And I also see this:

        Titus 2:11-14
        11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

        The saving comes before the cleaning-up. If we could ‘turn away’ from our sin on our own, then we wouldn’t really need Jesus, would we?

        -JGIG

    • Brandon . . . click on the little ‘unsubscribe’ prompt at the bottom of the email. I cannot do that for you . . . I tried . . .

  6. And my son is doing wonderfuly by the GRACE of Yahweh! He has came from 1lb 10oz to 12lbs. Thank you for asking.

    • Brandon, I’m so glad to hear that your son is doing so well =oD.

      Continued prayers for strength and health,
      -JGIG

  7. Destined to Reign p134 “the bottom line the Holy Spirit NEVER convicts you of your sins” Jesus says otherwise John 16:8 ‘and when He comes, He will CONVICT the world of SIN’ of course you will say “Pastor Prince was talking to believers while Jesus was talking about unregenerated people” Pastor Prince NEVER seperates the two and unbeliever reading Pastor Princes book would never see the need of repentance. When I first found Destined to Reign I really liked Mr. Princes teaching using the Hebrew word teachings and other things his belief on the Law is in accourdance with mine how ever over time I began to see he teaches sin excuse and is off on the meaning of grace and discourages any form of hold one’s self accountable that would be trying to earn Grace to Mr. Prince!

    • I know this is an old post and I see things have gotten better for Brandon but I just couldn’t let this post stand without some challenge/correction…
      As his pointed pointed out on p 134 of the book in question, one simply has to look two more pages, p 136, and see where Prince addresses this very question exactly as Brandon talks about. Pastor Prince asks this very question as a third party and then answers it in detail. And I think he did a very good job.
      So Pastor Prince does indeed separate the two in his book and only within a few pages of each other. Perhaps Brandon missed this.

  8. **** NOTE from JGIG ****
    The following comment (submitted a few days ago) has the potential to open a can of worms, which is fine – sometimes it’s a good thing to get into uncomfortable subjects for the greater good, and I’m okay with that. That said, I can just hear it now . . . those who teach Law keeping accusing me of telling people that if they decide to pursue the Torah that they will be visited by demons or are practicing witchcraft! Don’t go there. It’s not true and I won’t tolerate it.

    The following is an account of the Christian family of someone in the HRM. It is a testimony of their experience. Others who have been in/exposed to Law keeping belief systems have relayed similar stories to me, so the following is not an isolated experience/account. If you want to discuss the following, please do so respectfully. If you have had similar experiences, feel free to submit a comment. If you ‘have heard about someone’ who has had a similar experience, please refrain from sharing those accounts. I will only post first-hand accounts like the following to avoid hear-say. Again, respectful discussion of any first-hand accounts is welcomed. Thanks to all who provided prayer and counsel regarding the broaching of this subject.

    Back to Kathy F’s comment:
    Excellent testimony! I wanted to comment on the part that you did not elaborate on: where you mentioned the ‘frightening issue’ and needing help from a deliverance ministry.

    My husband has been involved in HRM for about 2 1/2 years now. There is a dark cloud that sits over our home. About a month ago, I was awakened at 3:38am by noises that sounded as if someone were walking around the house, rustling a plastic bag, stepping through my bedroom, etc. Only my daughter and I were home (my husband was on duty at the fire department). I got up, turned on the lights and checked the windows and doors – but nothing visible was there, and my daughter was not up.

    The next morning I told my daughter about what I heard, and she burst into tears and told me about her night of absolute terror. She said that at 3:30am she had just gone to bed (she had been online talking with her friends), and as she settled into bed, she looked toward her closed bedroom door and watched it open by itself. She said she closed her eyes and prayed that the door would still be open when she looked again, but it was closed when she opened her eyes. At that moment she saw an entity – kind of a grainy black very tall human shape with a triangular head, no facial features except for burning red eyes, and long arms that ended in huge claws. This being emanated total hatred for her, and every time she tried to move or pray out loud, it would immediately be standing over her bed glaring down at her with unrelenting hatred. She told me the fear she felt was paralyzing and crushing. She knew that when daylight came, the thing would go away, so she stayed awake until dawn, battling the fear and hatred from this entity. Well, after she told me this, I grabbed a piece of paper and drew the demon she saw, and she cried when she saw the drawing – how was I able to draw what she saw? – because that same demon has tried to terrorize me before, too, but I was able to pray out loud in the name of Jesus and it left me alone. These visitations have only been since my husband has embraced the teachings of the HRM. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

    To futher validate what we saw: I told my godly, Christian neighbor about what had happened and drew her a picture of the entity. She called me about a week later, having been to a local elementary school to give a presentation on art (she’s an artist). She was talking with an 11 yr. old boy and asked what he liked to draw. He said, “Dark things.” She asked to see a sample of his work and he pulled out a drawing of the EXACT SAME demon I had drawn, while commenting, “Sometimes I draw him with wings, and sometimes without.” He then went on to say that he likes to draw the Lake of Fire, and said “I can’t wait to go there!”. Needless to say, she told me what had happened, and obviously this demon is real.

    So, to those of you who are still immersed in the false teachings of the HRM, beware. You are messing with things on a spiritual level that will harm your family, and you.

    Spiritual warfare is REAL, and it is heating up in the end times. Just beware.

  9. I love how you like a Nazi guard what is posted. Like I said in the incredible disapearing post your intent is 100% to say that Those who follow Torah teachers are following demonic forces you have real issues of hatred for Jews your 100% out of bounds and lost in your sins!

    • Brandon, what ‘incredible disappearing post’? What are you talking about? Are you talking about the comment of yours that I did not post – where you basically said that Kathy’s testimony is a lie? Not bitin’. Too many former HRMers or HRM family members have relayed their very similar experiences – too many similar accounts from people who don’t know each other for it to be coincidence.

      I did relay what kind of comment that would not be tolerated in response to Kathy’s comment – and yours met that threshold and won’t be posted.

      And stop with the ‘Nazi guard’ and ‘hatred for Jews’ garbage. Not only is it not true, but those are just hyperbolic terms that you’re throwing out there to try to scare (instill fear in) people away from seriously examining the beliefs in Law ‘keeping’ sects.

      -JGIG

    • Brandon? I just want to say that before this attack happened, I only believed that demons were real because I believe ALL of the Bible. I knew what the Scriptures had to say about spiritual warfare, but never, ever thought it would take such a form as it did in my home. I thought things like that only happened to other people. It was real, it was absolutely, gut-wrenchingly frightening, and only the name of Jesus Christ had the power to stop it. Not me, not anything I could do, but the name of Jesus. Whether YOU believe I am telling the truth does not change the fact that my daughter and I lived through it, and it was very real. I can only hope that you never go through something like we experienced. On a positive note, it has shown us that the Bible is very serious when it tells us about spiritual warfare. It is real!

      And just so ya know: I am pro-Israel and love the Jewish people because God has chosen them as His own. He has, and is, and will be using them to show His glory to an unbelieveing world.

  10. brandon it pretty simple to know and understand what truth you have by your very own comments.

  11. 1. I do not keep the Law nor teach anyone that they sshould so why would I care what people examine I just can’t stand your outright hatred masked in religion and false concern where is this same concern for the people being swindled by ‘ChristianS ministries such as Mike Murduk and Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen and the numerous others funny how its only Jewish teachers

    2. Yes I said the story sounded a bit contired and it does and I believe 100% the only reason you would post something like that is because you want people to believe demons are backing all HRM.

    3. I say you are anti Jewish because you too me very much are!

    4. I’ve. Been good enough to read every post you made both on this site and mrs Vickies also who I almost suspect is your alter ego.

    5. Tell me if your following Paul why are you a woman trying to teach men? Shouldn’t you be quite? Id love to be able to look into your life see your walk only you hide who are. Maybe I’m wrong in what I believe about you but my spirit tells me I’m right. And you can drop the your a ‘Law keeper’ slander on me I’m a Pentocostal Minister freed by grace but the real grace. And once again id remind you Jesus or Yeshua was a JEW!

    • Brandon,

      To answer your questions, in order:

      1) You aren’t Torah pursuant? Interesting. So what’s your beef again? As for false teachers of any stripe, it’s not my intent to ‘expose’ this teacher or that. What I do here at JGIG is examine Law ‘keeping’ belief systems and see how they measure up against Scripture. I have not been called to examine the Word-Faith movement. Do you berate your baby’s pediatrician for not being a cardiologist? No. That’s not the field of medicine they felt called to. Do I agree with the teachings in the Word-Faith Movement? No. I think that anyone reading the content here would see that. There are other facets within churchianity that I disagree with as well (again, one would be able to figure out which things after reading here for awhile), but those are not the things that I feel I’m specifically called to address. The focus here is fairly targeted to examine the beliefs found in the HRM and related sects.

      2) I think you meant to say that you thought the story sounded a bit ‘contrived’ instead of ‘contired’, so I’ll answer to that.. Actually, I already did address that. From my previous comment: “Too many former HRMers or HRM family members have relayed their very similar experiences – too many similar accounts from people who don’t know each other for it to be coincidence.” I will add that Kathy has posted comments here and elsewhere and she does not strike me as a flake =o).

      As for my motivation for posting Kathy’s comment, I’ll say two things: One, it seemed to be the appropriate time for such a comment to be posted. I did seek counsel from my husband and others before doing so. Two, like it or not Brandon, there ARE false doctrines in the HRM, and some real doozies. There are doctrines and teachings in the HRM that are rendered from the practice of Kabbalah and the use of Midrash (PaRDeS). Both of those things employ the use of methods that are BIBLICALLY DEFINED as witchcraft. That makes those things doctrines of demons. It does not shock me that the door can be opened in some families affected by the HRM for harassment by demonic spirits.

      3) You say “to you” I am very anti-Jewish. Well, you’re wrong. Your perception is beyond inaccurate.

      4) You say you’ve read everything here at JGIG. If that’s the case then you will be held accountable for the false accusations you’ve made against me in the numerous comments that you’ve made here. You refer to “mrs Vickies”; I’ll assume you mean Vicky Dillen, who runs the seekgod site. We are most definitely not the same person. She has done extensive research into the teaching/teachers in the Hebrew Roots Movement and is a great resource for information regarding many facets of the HRM. She would, however, disagree with me (and I with her) on certain issues. On the core issues of the faith, however, we agree.

      5) The issue of me being a woman and having this blog is addressed HERE. Regarding you or anyone else being able to ‘look into my life’, you will have to be content with what is written here.

      And yes, I know that Jesus was a Jew. While Messiah was recognized by His lineage as foretold by prophecy, the work of Redemption was not dependent on his ethnicity, but rather on His Godhood.

      -JGIG

      • you are a Jew hater plain and simple every teacher you attack JEW! I don’t need any further proof that would be like me attacking only African American teachers and saying I’m not racist.

      • Name one teacher that I’ve ever attacked. Just one.

        -JGIG

      • And you just lied this post is a direct attack on Messianic Jewish teachers.

      • And we have covered 1000 times I Am not a Torah teacher nor a LAW keeper sister why do you keep trying to use that? maybe becausse that’s all your about! I have explained numerous times why I dislike this hate filled website. And please don’t bring up my child in any manner!

      • Then why are you here? You’ve complained over and over about receiving emails from this site that YOU subscribed to, yet when instructed on how to unsubscribe (because I cannot do it for you – believe me, I tried!!), you won’t do it. Again, why are you here?

        -JGIG

  12. I don’t see anyone spewing hatred for Jews. What I see is the necessity to fully embrace the new covenant. Just because a person disagrees with the theology of a Jewish person doesn’t make them anti-semetic. Otherwise Jesus, Paul, and all of the disciples, apostles, were Jew haters. They preached an end to the old covenant, and in the process disagreed with their Jewish peers. Jesus even called some of his fellow Jews a brood of vipers and white washed tombs. This had nothing to do with their Jewishness, but rather their character and their teachings.

    Understand the difference between hating a lie, a false doctrine, and hating the person who believes and teaches the lie. There is a difference.

    And who’s to say that she’s not concerned about people being swindled by those other ministers? Is it the responsibility of any given person to create a blog refuting every false teacher? Most people latch onto a topic they’re passionate about, and focus on that. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    • Jesus was a Jew and kept all the LAW his theology was not anti Torah lil sister. Paul lil sister calls himself a Pharisee after comming to Messiah and keeps the LAW read acts 21 so your wrong again. We who are not Jewish by birth are the ones Paul explains have no obligation towards becoming Jews like they did in His day. If you studied for a yr with real Messianic Believers and failed to learn anything useful it makes me wonder about your story. Why is it the author of this post only allows disgruntal HRM ex followers to post testimonies? Its like this I’m a Minister but also a sports blogger maybe you don’t watch Basket Ball but LeBron James left Cleveland for Miami and went from being the most popular player in the NBA to the most hated why when players leave all the time? Because it was the way he left, and likewise its not that the author disagrees with the teachers and teachings so do I. We have that right I personaly can’t stand Benny Hinn and Joel Olsteen but you don’t see me with a blog degrading them she has a right to disagree with the HRM but its the way she goes about it that shows me she does not do it for the right reason.

  13. Travis if you only knew lol anyway id remind you all the Christ said ‘love your enemies bless those who slander you’ and those who are for me can not be against me’ as for what I believe its not up to you to correct me but GOD the issue with this blog is it fails to look at its self and where the author of it falls short so she would ra5ther look at others and point out where they are wrong and look for yourself she only attacks Jews I wonder why that is? I have stated before do not ‘keep the LAW’ but I used the knowledge of these men to understand the Torah see messiah in every verse of the LAW and to get a clear understanding of the end times not this cluttered fairy tale fiction writers out for profit have sold. Monte Judah a man the author of this site has SLANDEeREd was beyound kind to me. While in prison he sent me thousands of dollars in both Messianic Material but also Christian Material never denied me anything I asked took the time to meet me upon my release we sat down as brothers and discused what we believed and what we disagreed on he also gave me 300 to get on my feet knowing that I did not believe the same thing he did that’s the love of Messiah that is what is lacking in Christianity today and on this website this author will degrade you if you disagree with her she will slander you call you vile degrading names like Judizer false teacher and a LAW Keeper these are some of the worst names a Christian can be labeled as. Maybe your to young in your walk Travis to see with diserment but I see this site for what it is the Big Brother in the parable of the lost son.

    • I’m glad someone was kind to you while you were in prison. Nice does not equal sound doctrine, however.

      Again, Brandon, please provide the proof of your accusations against me. We’ll wait.

      -JGIG

  14. brandon I be visiting this page for quit some time and never once seen jgig slander anyone or attack anyoneBut respectful dealt with doctrines which i agree is not scriptural. The bible warns about false teachers false prophets etc… is it is not slander to expose something if it indeed is coming forth someone that is spreading false doctrines.

    and where has she attack jews? there is a different s from attacking a doctrine from a person .

  15. maybe you should also read “what jgig is not” on the right side [on the sidebar]

    • Travis I don’t care what the side bar says she is a Jew hater every teacher she attacks Jewish!

      • Kindly post the proof of your accusations here, Brandon. We’ll wait.

        -JGIG

        P.S. And Brandon,you may not be aware of this, but MANY teachers in the HRM are not Jewish.

  16. GirlLuvs2Read i could not said it better my self, if brandon considers this attacking jews then i do not know what to say

  17. brandon there are some in the HRm that put The mosaic Law on the same level of salvation, they say The law does not saved etc.. but they say one thing but teach another and there nothing wrong calling someone a false teacher or prophet because we are to test them by the scriptures and if not God word, then what do we call them?

  18. Brandon,

    I’ve posted all of your comments save one, which was several counts of pure slander against Joseph Prince with no proof offered. I even googled your accusations to see if there was ANY credence to them. There is not.

    If you want to contribute to the conversation here about GirlLuvs2Read’s testimony or other relevent comments here, fine. If not, you’re done. Enough already.

    -JGIG

  19. JIGI you have slandered Brad Scott, Monte Judah, Bill Cloud and numerous others every Messianic believer that has ever posted here you speak disrespectful to. As for Joseph Prince I believe I posted out of his own book. And I don’t believe a word of this so called Testimony I almost believe that you wrote it that Kathy is fake and Herbs most likely your husband. Really not all are Jew’s in the HRM wow I would have never known that seeing that Rico Cortez is PR lol or how about mexican american Eddie Chumney lol. Its plain to see sister you hate JEWS. And anyone willing to point it out to you. I’m the bad guy because I don’t buy into your fake concern maked in Racist motives.

    • Brandon, you are soooo wrong on so many levels.

      You have no proof that I post against teachers. Because I don’t. I address teachings, not teachers.

      I don’t know whether you posted your quote from Joseph Prince’s book or not. I did find a comment written by someone else on another website that looked very much like yours, though, only the writer’s spelling and grammar are better than yours (no offense). Interesting how your spelling and grammar were much improved on that one comment. Do you have a physical copy of Destined to Reign?

      I did not write Kathy’s comment. She has been a commenter her and elsewhere for some time. She is a real person who relayed a real experience.

      Herb and I are not married. He is also a commenter who has read hear for some time. He is a brother in Christ, but not my husband =o). We do not know each other beyond the computer screen.

      Brandon, you’re really good and hurling accusations without proof. As a reminder, bearing false witness against another is breaking a command.

      -JGIG

  20. [edited to remove more repeated points about Joseph Prince and accusations of anti-Semitism against me]

    . . . So block me do what ever you want and by the way I unsubscribed before this so called testimony was ever published got the email anyway. You can make me out to be mean or evil but I see through you for what you really are.

    And I have made it my mission to expose yo and your husband. Ill find out who you really are sister believe me then I’m going to expose you.

    • Brandon wrote: “And I have made it my mission to expose yo and your husband. Ill find out who you really are sister believe me then I’m going to expose you.”

      Thank you, Brandon, for demonstrating for the readers here why I remain anonymous.

      And you have evidently subscribed to both comments on a particular post as well as the blog itself (which would send you any new post as it is published). You have to unsubscribe from any comments you’ve subscribed to as well as the blog itself.

      -JGIG

  21. P.S I like how you did not posst my reply to Herb guess its ok for him to disrespect me since I’m the bad ‘LAW’ keeper and your response to Travis was down right disrespectful seeing that this is not the first nor 2nd time we have talked so I’m dirt now? Oh wait let me understand you im the wrong type of dirt are to reffering to the Parable of the seed? Guess I’m the field that did not produce right? No sister I just call you out for what your about.

    • Feel free to carry on a conversation with Herb. But knock off the name-calling. As for the rest of your comment . . . assumptions, assumptions . . .

    • At 12:25 PM, Brandon said, “P.S I like how you did not posst my reply to Herb …”

      Say What??? Well, I don’t like it. I eagerly read all of the posts today, hoping to see an answer from you, Brandon, but saw none. Let’s try again.

      Herb, on June 4, 2011 at 6:08 am said:

      “My oh my, Brandon, I see you are still here. Amazing! How many months ago was it when we first met here? You said then you were going to leave. Now, I see you are still talking about leaving, but still here.”

      I was curious, Brandon, because you say so many contradictory things, it seems to me that two or more people are writing under the name of Brandon. For example, consider these two comments of yours just two days apart:

      BrandonClapp74, on June 2, 2011 at 4:59 am said:
      “And my son is doing wonderfuly by the GRACE of Yahweh! He has came from 1lb 10oz to 12lbs. Thank you for asking.”

      BrandonClapp74, on June 4, 2011 at 12:41 am said:” …I have explained numerous times why I dislike this hate filled website. And please don’t bring up my child in any manner!”

      Many such contradictions in what you write really do destroy your credibility, Brandon. When we first met here, you said you were a youth minister. If that is true, you should be extra careful to be very consistent in everything you say. Young people are very good at spotting any inconsistency in a teacher. Last December, you said it was useless and pointless to post here, but you are still posting.

      BTW, when I first encountered you here, you didn’t even know JGIG was a woman and referred to her as a man. Now I see you have decided she is my wife. She is not.
      Your own words show that you are a very mixed up fellow, Brandon. For your own sake, and especially for the sake of the youth you may influence, I really do hope you will allow God to guide you to a right relationship with God.

      Love in Christ,
      Herb

      • Herb I asked that she not bring up my child in an arguement which she did by asking if I Attacked his Pediatrician for not being a cardiologist. Her prior statement was not out of bounds seeing that it was I who brought up the fact that he was born premature back in November which Herb was tthe last time I commented on this site till this fairy tale showed up. Because I disagree with your racist views I don’t have a relationship with Yahwe do you know how often I pray Herb or how often I fast Herb no you don’t your a clown I am a youth minister Herb and sorry I happen to be a respected minister here in VA in fact over these last few months I’ve been blessed to be allowed by God to speak at several Churches in this area. My best guess is JI

      • Sorry like I said to JGIG I’m using a smart phone with small buttons. Anyway my. Best guess to as why JGIG did not allow my post to you was I brought out the fact that the only reason you would be disrespectful to me is because you can hide behind your keyboard and that I found it funny that the slang word for DORK in Philly is HERB. Herb its funny to me that if I was to come here agreeing with this garbage id be a “real” Christian with a “real” relationship.

  22. As for me bearing false witness that would be true if it was false and not the truth ‘sister’. Like I said your claim to not be a racist Jew hater would hold more weight if you didn’t only attack the Messianic Jews and their belief. That’s like me saying I don’t hate African American’s but every pastor I happen to talk about happens to be black. And besides who cares if its a commandment they were nailed to the cross acourding to your Gospel right?

    • Accusations without proof are not truth, Brandon. I don’t hate anybody – no individual, no ethnicity, no hue of skin, NO ONE.

      And isn’t it funny that it is the Gentiles in the Hebrew Roots Movement who cry the loudest about anti-Semitism, yet believers in Christ who are really Jewish actually agree that the Hebrew Roots Movement is aberrant! There are several Jewish believers with whom I’ve discussed such things, Brandon, and they find (and so does Jewish Orthodoxy) the Gentile Law keeping movements to be highly offensive. Truly Messianic Jews/Hebrews are highly offended by the likes of some of the teachers to which you refer (many of whom are NOT Jewish, btw).

      And God did not nail His commandments to the Cross, Brandon. He nailed our SIN to the Cross. That’s why our relationship with the Law changes when we put our faith and trust in Christ.

  23. Brandon,

    I’ve granted you considerable leeway regarding the comments policy because I have a soft spot in my heart for you.

    That said, you have become like a dripping faucet, and are not commenting on the testimony that is posted here, but merely bickering.

    You’ve made your points about your opinion of Joseph Prince, Kathy’s comment, and my supposed racism and your imaginations about me being married to Herb (rolling my eyes now).

    I won’t subject the reader to any more of your comments, and offer my apologies to them and to GirlLuvs2Read for letting you monopolize these comments thus far.

    It ends here.

    Blessings as you go,
    -JGIG

    • No apology necessary in my opinion, JGIG. As far as I am concerned, you are to be commended for your patience, (or rather for allowing our Lord’s patience to show through you). But even Jesus said there comes a time when we must shake off the dust and move on. I support your decision to end it here.

      P.S. See there, Brandon, (wherever you are). That proves JGIG is not my wife. If she were, we would have had to argue about it for awhile. I don’t even know what color the eyes are that she is rolling.

      Love in Christ,
      Herb

  24. Brandon I’m down right disrespect for Beliveing we have The right to call out false doctrines when I see them and Believing that people who teach them being false teachers/prophets? I guess you would consider the apostles disrespect for also consider people that teach doctrines of demons, false prophets or teachers.

  25. that also be my last on the issue with brandon

  26. Travis i agree with you, that it is not down right disrespectful to call out false doctrines as they are and call out also The teachers, testing the spirits is commanded by scripture and if others believe that is disrespect full then let them believe that.

    • Indeed we are called upon to do exactly that, Steve. And I like the way you and Travis have handled yourselves.

      Even if Brandon can no longer respond here, I would like to clear up one of his misconceptions. He may see it or it might help someone else. On June 4, 2011 at 4:58 pm, Brandon said:,”…Herb its funny to me that if I was to come here agreeing with this garbage id be a “real” Christian with a “real” relationship.”

      Nope. Sorry, but it is not our belief about different doctrine that makes us a real Christian. God does that and a real Christian does not put quotation marks around real. It can’t be dependent upon our belief because, in order to grow Spiritually, our beliefs must change. If we stubbornly cling to some pet belief, we reject Spiritual growth. That is simply the way it is. Job was like this for a long time before God finally opened his eyes.

      On a related note, JGIG has actually done you a big favor, Brandon, by refusing to post any more words from you here. That reduces the number of words you will have to give account for on Judgement Day.

      Matthew 12:36 But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.
      Matt 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

      Matt 15:11 Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.

      All of us would do well to keep in mind what Jesus said. So, even if Brandon doesn’t see this, it might help the rest of us.

      Love in Christ,
      Herb

  27. Hello JGiG Admin(I don’t know your name so), I pray that this finds you growing and teaching the Grace ofGod that is found only in Jesus Christ. 1st let me apologize for posting after I had sent you an email some months backs saying I would not come back here. I don’t want you to think I was lying but My heart has been the last few days drawing me to writw this to you. I have spent the last few month I have gone over the book of Hebrews several times while doing so I have joined a Theologial Discussion Group on Facebook and I have seen the damage Law Keeping teachers have done to the body of Christ. So many people are mean and judgmental and claim they have a Hosea 4 knowledge. I was wrong to lable you the things I did and speak evil of you. You are right. I still believe that God’s people need a strong foundation of the Law but in its intended purpose Christ we need to be taught Christ in the ark Christ in the Law Christ in the tabernacle Christ in the Feast days so that our people will have a strong foundation in the Word but it must not be taught as a way to enslave them to bondage. May Jesus bless you in all that you do. Please pray for me and my wife we had a Baby boy 6 weeks ago and its been real stressful with a 10 month old and a 6 week old. My 6 week old has been having some issues with his stomac please pray for him his name is Gavin James Clapp. God Bless I pray a blessing in your life and Ministry. Yours in Christ Brandon P.S please forgive me posting fter I promised I would never voisit again. Bujt I had erased your email.

    • Hi Brandon!

      I don’t quite know what to say, except, thank you for your willingness to come back and tell a bit of your story. Praise God that His Word does not return void!

      You have relayed what others have – that when simply reading the Word for what it actually says, Christ is the center of it all. And in Him is rest, righteousness, and good fruit.

      I will pray for you and your young family. Our first two babies were 16 months apart and that was hairy for about the first six months, but it will get easier over time, I promise. Try to remember to enjoy the babies while being worn out by them =o). They will be best buddies, being so close in age. Our first four children were born within 5 years, so I will pray with empathy for you guys! It will get easier.

      Every Blessing,
      -JGIG

    • Wow!!! What a wonderful and pleasant surprise it was to read your words, Brandon. I wish the best for you and your family.
      Love in Christ,
      Herb

  28. P.S in my first post I said thatthis website was unloving well it seems it was I who was unloving I am sorry.

    • No worries, Brandon. You are forgiven. I understand the place you were coming from at the time, and there’s grace for that =o).

      Love in Christ,
      -JGIG

    • I just wanted to add this, that came to mind for you:

      Ephesians 3:14-21
      14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

      20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

  29. Hi JGIG!

    Thanks for your blog to help people come out of the Hebrew Roots Movement. I have read some of your blog, and what I have read sounds doctrinally sound. I have written extensively on issues I have heard or read people make: http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/grace-law-and-the-christian/ . I don’t try to discuss people, but ideas from a biblical perspective. I pray tou continue to write as God moves you.

  30. I wanted to thank the author for this article. I knew I had read it a while back but took me a while to find it again. I had never heard of Joseph Prince myself and after the testimony I decided to get the book and read it for myself to see if it would be worthy of sending it to my ex.

    I simply could not put the book down. I thought it was a great book. Who would of thought a book about Grace also had many, many references to law keepers.

    Several months ago now my relationship with a lady ended. She was big into law keeping H/R. At first I was interested but soon could see issues with her beliefs. Although we stayed together for 9 months I guess it got too much for her. It ended friendly but this H/R stuff has opened up a whole new realm of what’s out there.

    I bought an extra copy and sent it to me ex’s daughter who is not in the H/R movement. If my ex can possibly read this book it might be enough to open the door for her to finally see where the teachers she listens to are VERY wrong.

    Matter of fact here are a few quotes of hers from a recent email we exchanged…

    “If you were to discover a hunger for Torah and desired obedience we might have a common ground for a foundation. Because of my love for Torah you questioned my salvation and insulted more than one of the teachers I respect. I understand that you feel comfortable in your current understanding of Pauline epistles but I disagree whole heartedly.”

    How can you argue with someone who considers themselves “saved” but does not believe what Paul teaches? I just don’t understand how twisted some people can get. The teachers I questioned was Rood/Judah…her heroes. Actually I rarely said anything about Rood.

    I will say this is a great woman and I know her heart is in the right place. She definitely wants to honor God. Of that I have no doubts. She has just been under this false teaching for too long. She does have some unresolved guilt and unforgiveness in her though. I still want her back as I truly believe God put us two together. I have been praying for her every day. Hopefully if she does read the book I sent her it will strike a chord in her spirit.

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