• What JGIG Is:

    Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

    The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

    Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

    These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

    It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

    Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

    To borrow from a Forest Gump quote, “Law ‘keepers’ are like a box of chocolates - ya never know what you’re gonna get!” The goal of JGIG is to be a resource to help those affected by the Torah pursuant movements to try and sort out what they’re dealing with. Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

    Be sure to click on the many embedded links within the posts here - there's lots of additional and related information for you to access that way, as well.

    Welcome, and may God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

  • Today’s Top Ten

  • Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email.

  • JGIG on Facebook:

  • Sponsor a child online through Compassion's Christian child sponsorship ministry. Search for a child by age, gender, country, birthday, special needs and more.
  • Recommended Reading

  • Broken Links – UGH

    Do you find it frustrating when you're directed to a link that does not exist? Me too! My apologies for any broken links you may find here.

    JGIG occasionally links to to sites that sometimes move or remove content, forums that periodically cull threads, sites/posters that appear to 'scrub' content from their sites (or YouTube posts, pdf files, etc.) when that content receives negative attention, and others that over time simply cease to exist.

    Please let me know via the 'Contact JGIG' drop-down menu item under the 'About' tab at the top of this page if you come across a link that is broken so that I can try to repair or remove it. Please include the name of the post/article where you found the broken link as well as the link itself. You may be able to find content specified by doing a search and viewing a relocated or cached page/post/video.

    Thanks,
    - JGIG

  • Total Hits

    • 317,445

Hebrew Roots Movement – Hebrews 10, Willful Sin, No More Sacrifice, and Judgement, Oh My!

Those who pursue the observance of Old Covenant Law often tell Christians that once they become aware that they should be ‘keeping’ the Law (according to Law keeping teachings), that they are then accountable to that ‘truth’, and if they choose to not keep Feasts, Days, and dietary laws, that they are in willful disobedience to God, because sin is the transgression of the Law.  Then they will throw out Hebrews 10:26-27 as a passage to convince believers in Christ that willful sin, whether it be not keeping Feasts, days, or dietary laws or just run-of-the-mill regular sins  . . .  well, there is no sacrifice left for you, right?  They rarely will come right out and tell you that unless you keep Old Covenant Law that you’ll either lose your salvation or you’re not really saved, but that is the clear implication.  Let’s take a closer look . . .

From a forum posting by ‘armourbearer’, self-described as Torah-pursuant: 
“So before you ask…so are you saying we’re saved by the law?  I will say this:  Salvation is obtained through faith, not in the works of the law.   HOWEVER ‘works’ are a demonstration of faith/commitment to God’s covenant, and OBEDIENCE brings God’s blessing and protection upon His people.”

Here’s something a little more direct from a Law ‘keeper’ who doesn’t hold back what he really thinks:

From “Jeremiah Torah” on Facebook (his page has since been taken down), a self-proclaimed “Prophet at YHVH”: 
“Messy-anics say that you are save [sic] by faith and not by Torah. They like to use Israel being saved from Mitzraim and then given the law as proof. They say, you follow Torah being obedient and not to be saved. It shows your love for YHVH.

Here is some wisdom:

After you are saved and decide NOT to keep torah. Are you disobedient then?
… What is the penalty for disobedience?

If you are saved and decide NOT to keep torah. Do you then still love YHVH?
What is the outcome if you do not love YHVH with all of your heart?

Do you think YHVH is going to wave a magic wand and then every-body will automatically obey? If that is true, why did He not wave this magic wand in the time of Noah and saved [sic] all those miserable sinners?

You might be saved by faith, but you keep your place in the Kingdom by following torah. You can loose [sic] your salvation if you become wilfully disobedient.

If you think Y’shua is going to allow the disobedient into the Kingdom because he is full of grace, then the Kingdom is going to be a place full of disobedient people and we’ll be back to where we are today.

Do not be fooled! Do net [sic] allow your name to be wiped from the book of life, torah determines your end.”

Alrighty then, no mincing of words there!  You might be saved by faith, but you keep your place in the Kingdom by following torah. You can loose [sic] your salvation if you become wilfully disobedient.”

The Internal Conflict
I’ll get back to Hebrews 10 in a bit, but let’s look first at the internal conflict that exists for those who have come to believe that Torah observance is mandatory for those who have put their faith and trust in Christ (also called ‘One Law Theology‘).

Sometimes it’s hard to pin down those who pursue Torah observance about what they truly believe about salvation, though once in a while someone like ‘Jeremiah Torah’ in the example above makes his views perfectly clear.  This issue comes up regularly on forums and in discussion and the following is a summary of my observations of  what many who claim they are Torah Observant have come to believe about salvation:

The Law ‘keeper’ will swear up and down that they believe in Jesus/Yeshua for their salvation, and that there is nothing that they can do to earn that salvation.  They will tell you that salvation is by faith, and that the Law (Torah) cannot save.

However, those same people will also say that while they cannot earn their salvation, that once they believe, there are certain things they must do as proof of that salvation (see quote from ‘armourbearer’ above).  For them that proof becomes the keeping of Old Covenant Law.

That is a ‘Jesus +’ equation.

Conversely, the Christian believes that once we believe and put our faith and trust in Christ Jesus that we receive forgiveness for our sins provided by Christ’s sacrifice and we become a New Creation in Him.  Jesus changes us intrinsically, indwells us with His Holy Spirit, giving us the Gift of Eternal Life.  Our desires and actions change not because of some outward set of rules (law), but because He is remaking us in His image – to reflect His Character – from the inside out. He writes His laws on our hearts – love God, love others – becoming our Restrainer, our Reminder, our Conscience, our Guide.

Salvation is by grace, through faith in Christ alone; works having nothing to do with salvation.  Works flow from the New Creation that we become in Christ, yes, but those are not works of the observances of Law, but of works of service and love and the sharing of the Gospel with all peoples.  That kind of fruit stems from spiritual maturity and results in reproduction – that of passing on the LIFE that we have in Christ by sharing the Gospel:

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Ephesians 2:1-10
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Galatians 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Galatians 5:16-18
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Romans 1:16-17
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 3:21-28
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I think it’s important to note here that Torah folk are not focused on passing on the Life of Christ to the Lost; they are primarily focused on teaching Christians to become Torah observant.  You will not hear them tell of spreading the Gospel to the nations, but of spreading Torah to the nations.  The spreading of the Gospel, the message of the forgiveness of sins and the free gift of eternal life that the Apostles constantly risked and nearly all of them eventually lost their lives for, is not the Law keepers’ priority.

For the Law keeper, there is a symbiotic relationship between the Cross and the Law.  But not in the sense that the Law leads one to Christ; no, in the Law keeping paradigm, if you come to the Cross, then you must obey Old Covenant Law.  In the Law keeping paradigm, if you don’t obey Old Covenant Law, then the Cross means nothing – they proclaim this while trying to hold onto some version of the Gospel, which is really no Gospel at all. 

Gospel means ‘Good News’, and if our salvation depends on our performance of Old Covenant Laws in addition to the work of Christ, then we’re in real trouble, and the news is really not good!  The Bible states that

Galatians 3:10-14
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

James 2:8-11
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a law-breaker.

What Law ‘keepers’ in effect are doing is posting a ‘One Way’ sign pointing in opposite directions.  They say that Jesus is the Only Way – only if pressed – and then they hope that you don’t notice the great big ‘but then you have to follow Old Covenant practices’, and further hope that you don’t realize that keeping the Law is an impossibility.  When you do bring up that point, they will usually come back with something like,  “Well    we    should
at least try!”  Yet the Scriptures make no provision for trying:

Exodus 23:13
13 “Be careful to do everything I have said to you.

Deuteronomy 5:28-33
28 The Lord heard you when you spoke to me and the Lord said to me, “I have heard what this people said to you. Everything they said was good. 29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

30 “Go, tell them to return to their tents. 31 But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess.”

32 So be careful to do what the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. 33 Walk in all the way that the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.

Deuteronomy 8:1
Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers.

Deuteronomy 12:27-28
27 Present your burnt offerings on the altar of the Lord your God, both the meat and the blood. The blood of your sacrifices must be poured beside the altar of the Lord your God, but you may eat the meat. 28 Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the Lord your God.

Jeremiah 7:21-26
21 “‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.’

Joshua 1:6-9
6 “Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. 7 Be strong and very courageous.Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”

Jesus reinforces the requirement of total obedience to the Law in Matthew 5, making the Law clearly un-keepable by adding requirements of heart motives into the mix.  Jesus absolutely buries us under Law in order to lead us to Himself.

Please forgive me for belaboring the point, but it’s important to grasp this reality:  The vast majority of Law keepers are not ministering the Gospel of Christ to the LOST, using the Law to lead them to Christ; they are trying to put the Body of Christ under the Law.  Their mandate and motivation is governed by Matthew 5:19:

19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I’ve actually seen a Law keeper post that they wanted to avoid being a slave in the kingdom and that “Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ is going to be a slave-beating MASTER in the kingdom to come…” 

Yet they are misusing and abusing the Law, using fear and manipulation to try to put those who are righteous in Christ back under the Law:

1 Timothy 1:8-17
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Christians who disagree with the Law-keeping view are called Antinomians – against God’s Law – when that’s not at all the case.  Biblical Christians understand that we are under New Covenant Law – the Law of Christ - love God, love others.  The Law in Christ is fulfilled by love and that we are to behave decently, as we clothe ourselves with Christ, not clothe ourselves with Old Covenant Law:

Romans 13:8-14
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Notice that the paragraph that exhorts us to behave decently points us not to the Law, but to Christ!

So a Law keeper may tell you with a straight face that they rely on the Cross for salvation, but they only tell you half of the story, for they also believe that without the keeping of the Law there is no salvation. In reality they do believe in salvation by works in a round-about-way, for while the keeping of the Law for them does not EARN them their salvation, the keeping of the Law,  in their world, undeniably MAINTAINS their salvation and according to their belief garners them position/reward in the kingdom.

Notice how a Law-centered paradigm results in an attitude concerned with self, while a Christ-centered paradigm results in an attitude concerned with others? 

So what do we do with Hebrews 10:26-27?
Hebrews 10:26 is one of the verses Law keepers use very effectively to convince Christians that once they become aware that they must still be keeping Mosaic Covenant Law (again, according to Law keeping doctrine), they become accountable to that knowledge, and, well, if they don’t obey Old Covenant Law then they are in willful disobedience and there is no more sacrifice left for them!  What does that equal?  Keep the Law or you’re not really saved.  Or don’t keep the Law and lose the salvation that you have.  Then of course there is judgement.

Some Law keepers won’t go so far as to say that you’re not really saved or that you’ll lose your salvation, but that you will be the ‘least’ in the Kingdom.  Others say that the curses described in Deuteronomy 30 will apply.  The concept of curses for the Body of Christ is a whole ‘nother post . . .   If your curious, just try to find where the Bible describes curses for those in Christ.  (The only time it mentions curses for those in Christ is if they put themselves back under Law!)

Here’s the text in Hebrews 10:

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Taking that passage out of context, it almost looks like Jesus’ sacrifice can ‘run out’ if you sin enough.

These questions arise:

  • How does one measure when the Sacrifice of Christ has ‘run out’? 
  • How many sins do you have in your allotment before you’re in trouble?
  • What about habitual sins?
  • Every day little sins?
  • Sins of omission?
  • And then there is the whole wages of sin issue . . . God very clearly states that the wages of sin is death!

It’s a very serious matter, sin, and not to be treated lightly!

Under the Old Covenant, both intentional and unintentional sins were punishable by death; either by the death of the sinner or by the death of an animal sacrificed on the sinner’s behalf.

God’s Law is clear.

So if you’re going to count someone’s sin against them, who’s gonna die?  Sin requires payment by death, yes?

Jesus took the penalty for sin, you say?

Right!

When you really think about it, it’s a silly, subjective exercise and we can clearly see from other Scriptures that God has put a reality in place which is much more reliable and reasonable when we understand that it’s not in our performance of any law where we find security but when we understand who we are in Christ and rest in His completed Work where we find security:

Ephesians 1:11-14
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 3
Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Hebrews 7:18-25
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Hebrews 10:11-12
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

So we know that when we repent and put our faith in trust in Christ, receiving the forgiveness for sins that He provided at the Cross, we are marked, sealed with the Holy Spirit, which guarantees our redemption.  There is no caveat there that says, “unless you sin again of course”!  And when Scripture says that Jesus died for our sins – there is no specification or caveat stating that some sins, or certain sins, or sins after/before such a time will no longer be forgiven!

Jesus is the perfect High Priest Who has offered for all time one sacrifice for all sins . . . 

If you hold to the belief that if you sin after you come to Christ that you have to ask for forgiveness – are you not reducing the seriousness of sin?

Let me clarify:  If you think that asking for God to forgive you for a transgression that you commit as a believer in Christ is going to garner you forgiveness or favor with God, you are making sin out to be not such a serious thing – a thing that required the horrific death of God in the Flesh, Jesus Christ, on the Cross in order for it to be forgiven.

Did the Death of Christ on the Cross provide for the forgiveness of all sins or didn’t it?

Do you think that Jesus will come and die that death again to forgive the sins you will commit after you put your faith and trust in Him?  Do you suppose that your request for forgiveness is a suitable substitute for or addition to the Blood of Christ?  That His Blood was not enough?  Can you think of any Scripture that supports that idea?  1 John 1:9, you say?  Let’s take a look:

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

When we come to Christ we repent, changing our mind and heart about our sinful condition, about Who Jesus is, and we believe – put our faith and trust in His Work – acknowledging our sin (confession) . . . and then what?

The Bible says that He is faithful and just and will forgive us only the sins that we commit that are not on purpose?

Just the sins committed up until we placed our faith and trust in Christ?

No!

He is faithful and just to forgive us all of our sinS!  And to purify us from ALL unrighteousness!

Does that negate what is stated in verses 8 and 10?  No!  All of it is true, and none of it supports repeated confession and asking for forgiveness from God for sins already Bled and Died for!

We will see in Hebrews 10:10 where God says very clearly that He died once for all, and that through that sacrifice we have been made holy.  No caveats.  It’s done.  Finished.

This question was recently asked on a forum:

Originally Posted by alexeyhurricane:
where does it say in the Bible that there will be 3rd temple build by Jews???
just got into discussion with someone who says there wont be 3rd temple build???  where in the future temple will the Messiah seat where there is no throne in temples [sic] before???

That’s actually a really good question, and ties into explaining the proper interpretation of Hebrews 10:26.  Let’s take all of Hebrews 10 into account while remembering who we are in Christ, and of course, the question from ‘alexeyhurricane’, which was where would Jesus sit in a 3rd Temple scenario?

The short answer to the question is that in the past, the priest serving in the Temple NEVER SAT DOWN – it was prohibited because the work of the priest was never done – there was always a steady stream of sins from the people to be dealt with!

Let’s take a look at how things shape up after the Work of Christ according to the letter to the Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:1-12
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

He sat down!  Something the earthly priests in the Temple were never permitted to do!  The sin issue has been dealt with once for all!

Hebrews 10:15-25
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

So when the Scriptures say there is no longer any sacrifice for sin – it’s because the Perfect High Priest sat down. His Work is done. It is finished!  He’s not going to die again to become the propitiation for any sin you may commit in the future, nor is any other sacrifice required.  He’s already done the Work.  There is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Looking at the balance of Hebrews 10:

Hebrews 10:26-39
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while,

“He who is coming will come and will not delay. 

38 But my righteous one will live by faith.

And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him.”

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Some folks will say that vs. 26 says that we can ‘run out’ of sacrifice if we keep on sinning . . . as if the Blood of Christ really didn’t forgive all sin! That idea contradicts a whole bunch of other Scriptures – even within this passage (vs. 17, echoing Jer. 31). The key to understanding what vs. 26 says is in vs. 38-39: The righteous will live by faith and won’t shrink back.  We (believers) do not shrink back, but believe and are saved. The willful sin spoken of in verse 26 is the sin of unbelief – that is the ONLY sin that will not be forgiven. For all other sin, the sacrifice has been made, and will not be repeated, nor will it be revoked:

18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

What are ‘these’? Go back to vs. 17:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

All that to say, no – there would be no place for sitting in the 3rd Temple – why would there be?  The whole design and purpose of the Temple was a completely different system of how God related to people under the Old Covenant via the Law vs. how He relates to people under the New Covenant in Christ!  Any future earthly Temple will not have the presence of God dwelling within.  God has chosen a New Covenant by which to relate to His people.  Anyone participating in future earthly temple rites will be spitting on the Work of Christ:

Hebrews 10:29
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

The Temple was rendered obsolete by the Work of Christ.  The concept of God’s dwelling place shifts from a physical Temple to the spiritual Body of Christ according to the writings to the Body of Christ after Pentecost:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Ephesians 2:19-22

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Peter 2:4-5

4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Okay.  Almost done now.  Let’s bring this full circle, shall we, continuing with these two passages:

Ephesians 3:10-12
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Hebrews 4:14-16
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Back to the opening paragraph:  Those who pursue the observance of Old Covenant Law often tell Christians that once they become aware that they should be ‘keeping’ the Law (according to Law ‘keeping’ teachings), that they are then accountable to that ‘truth’, and if they choose to not keep Feasts, Days, and dietary laws, that they are in willful disobedience to God.  Then they will throw out Hebrews 10:26-27 as a passage to convince believers in Christ that willful sin  . . .  well, there is no sacrifice left for you, right?  They rarely will come right out and tell you that unless you keep Old Covenant Law that you’ll either lose your salvation or you’re not really saved, but that is the clear implication. 

That is a FALSE teaching.

The Life that God gives us in Christ is eternal.  It does not end; it cannot be revoked.  Our growth in Christ does not progress via the Law, it progresses via Grace and the indwelling of His Holy Spirit.

Let’s look at the framework for salvation and life in Christ beginning at repentance: 

The word repent as it is used in the New Testament has 2 related meanings – one having to do with a change of mind, the other having to do with regret:

metanoeō (repent)

1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins

“Repentance (metanoia, ‘change of mind’) involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness.” (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

and:

metamelomai (repent)

1) it is a care to one afterwards

a) it repents one, to repent one’s self

One place I looked used the word ‘regret’ to help describe repent/metamelomai.

For those of you who like to look at the etymology of a word, New Testament usage of repent traces back thus:

metanoeō (repent)

From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539):

Strong’s G3326 – meta

1) with, after, behind

Strong’s G3539 – noeō

1) to perceive with the mind, to understand, to have understanding

2) to think upon, heed, ponder, consider

and

metamelomai (repent)

From μετά (G3326) and the middle voice of μέλει (G3199)

Strong’s G3326 – meta

1) with, after, behind

Strong’s G3199 – melei

1) to care about

Now those who adhere to a Law keeping paradigm will tell us that ‘repent‘ means to ‘return‘, and in the context of their belief system, that means to return to Law.  First, let me make clear, based on what we see above, that is NOT the meaning of the word repent used in the NT.

While Law keeping sects will tell you that repent means to ‘return’ to the Law, many mainstream Christians will simply say that repent means to turn away from your sins.

Here’s the thing:  If you say, ‘Repent and be saved’ and repent means turn, then you’re saying that you have to clean yourself up before you can come to Christ for His salvation. Is that what the Bible says?  No.  The Bible says that Christ does the cleansing:

John 13:6-9
6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

Peter realized that no matter how humbling it would be to bring his dirty, defiled, nasty feet to Christ for Christ to wash, that’s the way it had to be – we change our mind about who we are, who Christ is, and come to HIM to be cleansed.

At that point the Bible says this happens:

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 5:16-21
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

So one changes their mind (repents), believes, putting their faith and trust in Christ (Hebrews 10), receives the forgiveness that Christ provided for us at the Cross, is sealed with the Holy Spirit receiving eternal Life, and becomes a New Creation in Him.

Then what?

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Galatians 5:13-26
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Romans 13:8-14
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Then Grace and the Holy Spirit teach us what to do/not do – we clothe ourselves with Christ Who teaches us to not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

It’s not that we have to strive to NOT NOT NOT sin, it’s that we need to let the Holy Spirit – clothing ourselves with Christ – let Him live through us!  Does that mean that we’ll never sin again?  No, as long as we’re in the flesh, we will sin.  But we rest in this:

Hebrews 10:19-23
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

What are the results of a focus on Law for those in Christ?

Law stirs up sin:

Romans 7:7-8
7 What shall we say then?  Is the law sin?  Certainly not!  On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.  For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”  8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire.  For apart from the law sin was dead.

Law produces death:

Romans 7:9-11
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.  10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.  11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.

Law produces fruit unto death:

Romans 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

What are the results of a focus on Grace and the Spirit for those in Christ?

Grace teaches us godliness:

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.  12 It [grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

The Spirit produces life:

Romans 8:5-6
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.  6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

The Spirit produces the Fruits of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.  Against such things there is no law.  24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.  25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

For some the desire to sin instantly leaves them when they get saved – for others (as can be the case with some who have addictions or sexual sin, for example), it takes time as they learn to submit their will to the will of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.  2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.  Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Will we repent again in our walks?  Yes!  But does that mean to turn away from sin (works), or seek for forgiveness again (ALL of our sins were forgiven at the Cross)?

Or does that mean letting God remake, renew, our what?  Our minds - the birthplace of sin (see Matthew 5, James 1:13-15) – which leads us to change our minds – repent – about our sins and then our actions follow that RENEWAL – letting Grace teach us and the Holy Spirit lead us – apart from the Law:

Romans 3:21
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Yay God!   \o/

So when a Law-keeper is trying to tell you that if you won’t put yourself back under Law that you are in willful disobedience to God, they are actually trying to get you to put yourself back under a system that the New Covenant Scriptures say produces death, not  life; a system that produces fruit unto death, not the Fruits of the Spirit; a system that actually stirs up sin, not a system that produces righteousness!  They are using fear and a misrepresentation of Scripture in an attempt to manipulate you into putting yourself under Law to secure for themselves and you ‘position’ in the kingdom, or so they think.

What does God say to those who are in Christ?

Galatians 5:16-18
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Resources for further study:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Other articles of interest:

For more resources regarding the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movements see the Post Index and the Articles Page.  General study helps, discernment, and apologetics sites can be found HERE.  Good, foundational studies with a special emphasis on Old Covenant/New Covenant Truths can be found HERE.   Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

53 Responses

  1. Oh, Praise God.

  2. Very good! How they stick to such a false teaching is beyond me. I. JUST. DON’T. UNDERSTAND.

  3. Awesome stuff here.. Thank you.

  4. I read this a few days ago and wanted to comment… and now trying to remember what it was I wanted to say!! lol. Okay…. *straining the brain* I think I got it. I remember these circular arguments so well… I grew up with them in Adventism also. Keeping the Sabbath did NOT save us, but if we stopped, we would be lost. Those who did not understand “The Truth” as we called it (the Sabbath, not Jesus) and went to church on Sunday might be okay, but if they heard then rejected the “truth” … then not so much.

    The two main points causing confusion here are #1 – inability to see obedience as joyful fruit produced by the Holy Spirit, and #2 – the NC definition of what obedience actually IS…

    (more coming back to me now.) Hebrews 10 set me free from the fear of judgement in Christ, and from the twisted teachings of Adventism about the atonement of the cross, but I still didn’t see the NC obedience was not exactly like the OC. And neither do many churches who make both of these errors previously listed. They focus on behavior as if it all hinges on your performance, and they fail to see there is a huge jump in the nature of obedience from the OC to NC… If they really understood what obedience looked like, they would never lay their hands to the task in their own strength. I am SO thankful to be free from these tormenting beliefs, where there is no way to ever feel that you have arrived. In order to avoid the pain of that deep conviction, you begin to spend your time focusing on where everyone else falls short. (big sigh). If obedience is the goal, enough is never enough. if resting in Jesus is the goal, HE is enough.

  5. Excellent post. Well thought out and presented. Thank you for taking the time to prepare this.

    • Thanks, Christiana. One of these days maybe God will give me the gift of brevity, ha! There was just a lot of ground to cover – I’m glad you appreciated it =o).

  6. I honestly feel bad for you. You trust in the sources which have taught you these things and deny the original understandings of these scriptures. Under the law does not mean obedient to it. It means under CONDEMNATION of it. Romans 3:19 shows this clearly…

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD may become GUILTY before God.

    Two things to notice there.
    1) Those who are under the law are found guilty.
    2) The verse also says the whole world will be found guilty. Not just Jews or those who keep the Torah.

    No where in that verse do we get the impression that the term “under the law” means obedient to it. Let’s check out chapter six next.

    Rom 6:14 For sin (TRANSGRESSING THE LAW) shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law (CONDEMNATION), but under grace.
    Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid!!!

    Shall we transgress the law because we are not under it? God forbid!! Transgressing it would place us “under the law”. The Bible clearly teaches us that transgressing the law is sin.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS?

    Sin leads to death. Obedience to righteousness. Obedience to what?

    Deu 6:25 And it shall be our RIGHTEOUSNESS, if we OBSERVE to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

    Righteousness in the Bible has always been described as obedience to the commands. Just think of John the Baptist’s parents.

    Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
    Luk 1:6 And they were both RIGHTEOUS before God, walking in all the COMMANDMENTS and —(ordinances)— of the Lord BLAMELESS.

    The funny thing about the word ordinance there is that it is the greek word dikaioma.

    G1345
    δικαίωμα
    dikaiōma
    dik-ah’-yo-mah
    From G1344; an equitable deed; by implication a statute or decision: – judgment, justification, ordinance, RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    One of the very meanings of that word is righteousness. Notice how it says they were blameless before God. This is not speaking about their performance but their hearts. To be blameless means you have a pure heart and motives.

    I saw you in another post speak about Romans 7 so let me touch on that.

    Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (FOR I SPEAK TO THEM THAT KNOW THE LAW,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
    Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    This is not talking about the law as a whole but a specific law found in Deuteronomy about divorce.

    Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
    Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
    Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
    Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

    Paul is not talking about the Torah but a specific law found in it that does not permit a woman to remarry her husband once she has been divorced from him. When he dies she is free to marry another again. Notice the very first verse says I speak to those who know the law. It is obvious that many here do not know it. This is not to cast anyone down but to show them that when they read things like that they should think twice about what they take away from the passage, In that passage he is saying that through the death of messiah we are now free from the condemnation of the law which falls on everyone who disobeys the law.

    Rom 7:5 For when we were in the FLESH, the motions of SINS, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto DEATH.
    Rom 7:6 But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the FLESH, but after the Spirit.
    Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

    I won’t go on as this has gotten long but let me also remind you that Paul was a life long Pharisee who kept the sabbath and all of the feasts to the day he died so it would seem hypocritical for him to preach one thing and do another.

    Shalom.

    Julio

    • Julio, you wrote, “Righteousness in the Bible has always been described as obedience to the commands.”

      Romans 1:16-17
      16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

      Romans 3:21-22
      21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

      Romans 4:1-17
      What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

      4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

      7 “Blessed are they
      whose transgressions are forgiven,
      whose sins are covered.
      8 Blessed is the man
      whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

      9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

      13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

      16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

      Romans 5:17-21
      17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

      18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

      20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      Now let’s look at Romans 6 understanding that righteousness comes by faith, belief, and is a gift – apart from the Law – from God:

      Romans 6:11-23
      11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

      15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

      19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      You also wrote, regarding Romans 7: “This is not talking about the law as a whole but a specific law found in Deuteronomy about divorce.”

      You’re forcing a meaning into the text that is not intended by Paul. Paul is using a marriage metaphor to show how we die to the Law and are joined unto Christ, not referring to the passage in Deut. that you mention. There is no cross reference in Romans 7 to Deuteronomy – at all. Furthermore, Paul states quite clearly in Romans 7 regarding the totality of the Law:

      Romans 7:4-6
      4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

      Paul further states:

      7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

      You also wrote: “I won’t go on as this has gotten long but let me also remind you that Paul was a life long Pharisee who kept the sabbath and all of the feasts to the day he died so it would seem hypocritical for him to preach one thing and do another.”

      Paul has this to say about that:

      Philippians 3:1-9
      Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

      2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh.

      If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

      7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

      Paul did not keep the Law until the day he died; there were a number of years that he did not go to Jerusalem for the Pilgrimage Feasts because he was in Arabia learning the Gospel from Christ Himself:

      Galatians 1:11-24
      11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

      13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

      18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. 21 Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they praised God because of me.

      Grace and peace,
      -JGIG

  7. I somewhat disagree with the poster in criticizing all of the law. Several of the scriptures are taken out of context… also considering that 99% of Christ’s message was about repentance, how can you magically feel that the law is not important? It isn’t that Christians need to pretend it doesn’t exist, but they should at least know what it says and TRY to follow it, not for the sake of salvation, but to know what God deems permissible or not. Why? It is because of this lack of knowledge (and as we all know men die for lack of knowledge) that the modern Christian church is so far off on its moral teachings. Paul attempted to bring Christianity to a non-Jewish population by telling them to keep the commandments of Noah. It is a great idea, but what has it brought the church in the past 2000 years? Confusion. We have supposed “Christian” churches that live by sloppy grace, “Christian” churches who support gay marriage, “Christian” churches who have many immoral teachings contrary to the word of God, because people are ignorant of His law. Yes Christians have grace, but it is foolish to think we do not need to understand, practice, or not preach the contents of the law…after all, Jesus himself was Jewish and observed the law. If anything, he taught that it wasn’t just about following it, it was also about the intention of it. If he said the greatest commandment was to love God? And given the historical context of his day, THAT was following God and keeping his word. The times he was mad at the pharisees was because they were being hypocritical by not allowing people to do good works on the sabbath, or because they were not helping out those in need.

    • Jaeson,
      The Church is so far off on it’s moral behavior precisely because it keeps mixing the Old Covenant Law with New Covenant Grace! There is no shortage of Law-teaching in the Church; some teach forumlas/principles/rules, while others think they’re doing it better by preaching observance to Torah laws. Law stirs up sin (see section in post above where there are Scriptures listing what Law produces vs. what Grace/the Spirit produce):

      Galatians 5:1-5
      It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

      2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

      I caught these on DVR just after Christmas. I’ve been intrigued by Joseph Prince’s teachings on Law and Grace having caught parts of some of his teachings while switching channels over the past couple of years, so I decided to DVR some of his stuff to look at it a little more closely. The following teachings were the first ones that came up . I posted the following on facebook tonight – I hope you guys can view these – I could not find any audio versions for download, only these video versions:

      Joseph Prince from 2003, “Understanding the Major Covenants of the Bible – Parts 1-4″

      Some may take issue with Prince’s teaching on healing and ‘prosperity’ (which, after listening to a good sampling of his stuff I understand, regarding what he means by prosperity, is to ‘have enough to live and have enough to give to others’ more than a ‘being/becoming wealthy’ meaning), this series is very insightful on Old Covenant/New Covenant issues.

      Please pardon the link to TBN; I couldn’t find the teaching anywhere else online. Also the actual teachings are from about two minutes into the video and go until about minute 23 or so. The rest is advertising, so you can skip those parts if you wish.

      There are four parts – I’ll post links and ‘things to note’ in parts 2-4 follow in comments (parts 2 and 3 rock!).

      Part 1

      http://www.itbn.org/index/detail/lib/Networks/sublib/TBN/ec/Z3NmN2NzrxNAVY5olCOLLDrcnNAJLtKH

      Things to note:

      – Defining the Gospel
      – What gives license to sin
      – Why is man opposed to the message of Grace
      – What is a covenant
      – What law was in the Garden
      – What is the strength of sin

      Part 2 is really excellent!

      http://www.itbn.org/index/detail/lib/Networks/sublib/TBN/ec/tmNmp2NzpPJ5GahAcPanzNv6DxUC4IaE

      Things to note:

      – The purpose of the Law
      – The Law makes one sin-conscious
      – What maintained blessings to Israel under the Old Covenant
      – How did Jesus use the Law (this is really excellent)
      – How did the Pharisees use the Law
      – Is all Scripture for us today
      – Which covenant should we spend more time studying
      – What if God had by-passed the Law
      – In the New Covenant, what is our part; what is God’s part (this is really excellent)
      – What really happens if we count on forgiveness
      – Did God’s standards change in the New Covenant

      Part 3

      http://www.itbn.org/index/detail/lib/Networks/sublib/TBN/ec/U0cDh3NzrRty-q8wg4iulpole7TSui-s

      Things to note:

      – Did God’s standard change in the New Covenant con’t.
      – Obedience to faith vs. obedience to law (this is really excellent)
      – What were/are the requirements of each covenant
      – Where did God place His wrath regarding our sins
      – Is your focus on your sin or on the Work of Christ
      – What are the results of focusing on Christ
      – What are the results of focusing on sin/law
      – What does walking uprightly mean in the Old Covenant
      – What does walking uprightly mean in the New Covenant
      – Is the heart of a believer desparately wicked or have we been given a new heart

      Part 4

      http://www.itbn.org/index/detail/lib/Networks/sublib/TBN/ec/1jZnN5NzoSREMnoRwpf0JHAovrcX86RM

      Things to note:

      – Mixing covenants
      – Is the heart of a believer desparately wicked or have we been given a new heart con’t.
      – What did Peter really mean when he said that Paul is hard to understand
      – What is true humility
      – If someone lacks godly qualities, what have they forgotten, the Law or that they’re forgiven
      – Must one clean oneself before taking a bath
      – What does it mean for Christ to be a Savior
      – Is the forgiveness of sins a beginning teaching or a Truth in which we should continually stand
      – What is the power of the Gospel

      Colossians 2:6-7
      6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

  8. //JGIG wrote – Works flow from the New Creation that we become in Christ, yes, but those are not works of the observances of Law, but of works of service and love and the sharing of the Gospel with all peoples.//

    It’s true that once we come to faith and God changes our hearts, that God puts within us a desire to serve others and share the gospel with all people. Praise God!

    But you seem to be ignoring — or perhaps just misunderstanding — the promise of the New Covenant, in which God promises to write his Torah on the hearts and the minds of his people:

    “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my Torah [h8451] within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

    This means that God places more on his people’s hearts than just the desire to serve one another and share the gospel with others — he *also* puts within us the heartfelt desire to walk in his commandments (in his Torah) — not in fear of losing our salvation if we don’t — but in thankfulness and love for what He has done on our behalf.

    See Psalm 119, 1 John 5:3, and 1 John 2:5 for what this looks like in practice.

    • Rob, does it seem, after reading any of the posts here at JGIG, like I ignore or misunderstand the issues of Law and Grace? Come on. You know better. You are trying to appear ‘tactful’ when you are in fact here to tell me and others that if we really love God, if we really want to please Him, that we will submit to Torah Law. You are aware that Torah is not defined solely by Mosaic Covenant Law, yes?

      H8451 towrah
      1) law, direction, instruction
      a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
      1) body of prophetic teaching
      2) instruction in Messianic age
      3) body of priestly direction or instruction
      4) body of legal directives
      b) law
      1) law of the burnt offering
      2) of special law, codes of law
      c) custom, manner
      d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

      Huh. Codified Laws are the LAST definition. Instruction in Messianic age ranks much higher! There are lots of instructions/exhortations in the NT – and lots of places that say we are no longer under Law (nomos, Mosaic Covenant Law) if we are in Christ (the shortest and sweetest in Galatians 5:18 – But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.)

      This reality is supported by Jeremiah 31:31-32
      31 “The time is coming,” declares the Lord,
      “when I will make a new covenant
      with the house of Israel
      and with the house of Judah.
      32 It will not be like the covenant
      I made with their forefathers
      when I took them by the hand
      to lead them out of Egypt,

      because they broke my covenant,
      though I was a husband to them,”
      declares the Lord.

      The Scriptures are clear.

      And as a believer for nearly 40 years, I can testify that I’ve NEVER been led by the Holy Spirit to keep Feasts, days, dietary laws, to wear tzit tzit, sit niddah, etc. What has the Holy Spirit led me to do?

      1 John 3:21-24
      21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

      • So you *only* follow the instructions from the NT, but not from the Torah then?

      • 1 John 3:23
        23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

        Romans 13:8-14
        8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

        11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

      • When John warns against “gratifying the desires of the sinful nature,” how was John defining sin? If sin is “missing the mark,” what mark was he referring to? (since, obviously, the NT hadn’t been written yet)

      • Actually, it was Paul that wrote that bit about gratifying the desires of the sinful nature in the letter to the Romans, which was recognized as Scripture by Peter and the other Apostles in the First Century, as well as the Body of Christ, who made lots of copies of the Apostles’ writings and passed them around from assembly to assembly. That’s one reason we have so much manuscript evidence for the NT =o).

        Here’s what Paul says about Law and sin:

        Law stirs up sin:

        Romans 7:7-8
        7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

        Law produces death:

        Romans 7:9-11
        9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.

        Law produces fruit unto death:

        Romans 7:5
        5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

        So if you are relying on observing Law to bring about a reduction of sin in your life, you’re barking up the wrong tree!

        Galatians 5:16-18
        16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

        What does Grace and the Spirit produce in us?

        Grace teaches us godliness:

        Titus 2:11-14
        11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It [grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

        The Spirit produces life:

        Romans 8:5-6
        5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

        The Spirit produces the Fruits of the Spirit:

        Galatians 5:22-25
        22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

      • Ah, so you do follow the New Testament instructions/commands only. Interesting that the Ghost of Marcion seems to be popping up his head a lot these days.

        Do you ever worry that by following your interpretation of Paul’s writings
        (and not God’s words, etched in stone, and given to his people at the foot of Mt. Sainai), you’re setting your interpretation of Paul over and above God’s clear instructions?

        I’d understand if Paul was the church’s first Pope, and was given authority to nullify God’s commands. But I see no such authority given to Paul.

        Instead, I read passages like Deuteronomy 13:5 for example, where God tells his people that it is *false prophets* who will teach His people to depart from the instructions he gives in Deuteronomy?

        Have you considered, based on this, that your interpretation of Paul’s writings need to be reconsidered?

      • HRMers have to either twist the writings of Paul to fit their false doctrines, or reject Paul altogether.

        I have more respect for those who reject Paul altogether. But then they would have to reject the rest of the Apostolic writings as well, as the other Apostles recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture. And if their judgement on Paul was bad, well, you can’t trust anything else they wrote, can you.

        Marcion. Please. God TOLD us that there would be a NEW covenant. That it would NOT BE LIKE the old. Marcion has nothing to do with that. Those are the words of God.

        Paul’s words are clear, and His authority is clear:

        Galatians 1:6-12
        6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

        10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

        11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

        And with the authority of Christ, Paul writes:

        2 Corinthians 3
        Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

        4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

        7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

        12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

        Paul is in no way contradicting the Commands of God; for John writes this, quoting Christ Jesus:

        John 6:28-29
        28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
        29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

        And John reiterates that command here, and adds another from God, and states that the Spirit testifies in confirmation of the following:

        1 John 3:21-24
        21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

        If you choose to live in the Old Covenant, that is certainly your choice.

        I choose this:

        Hebrews 8:6-13
        6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

        7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

        “The time is coming, declares the Lord,
        when I will make a new covenant
        with the house of Israel
        and with the house of Judah.
        9 It will not be like the covenant
        I made with their forefathers
        when I took them by the hand
        to lead them out of Egypt,
        because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
        and I turned away from them,
        declares the Lord.
        10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
        after that time, declares the Lord.
        I will put my laws in their minds
        and write them on their hearts.
        I will be their God,
        and they will be my people.
        11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
        or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
        because they will all know me,
        from the least of them to the greatest.
        12 For I will forgive their wickedness
        and will remember their sins no more.”

        13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

      • //God TOLD us that there would be a NEW covenant. That it would NOT BE LIKE the old. Marcion has nothing to do with that. Those are the words of God.//

        You seem to be conflating “covenant” with “law” here — two very distinct concepts. A “covenant” is simply a promise — an agreement between two parties. A “law” is something very different. It is a standard that God (or man) sets forth.

        Read Jeremiah 31 again. Please show me where Jeremiah — or any writer in the OT for that matter — speaks of God giving a new law….

      • You mean this covenant/agreement, where Israel boasted that they would do all that God commanded?

        Exodus 19:7-8
        7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.

        And this:

        Exodus 24:3-8
        3 When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the Lord has said we will do.” 4 Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said.

        He got up early the next morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and set up twelve stone pillars representing the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young Israelite men, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as fellowship offerings to the Lord. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”

        8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

        The Covenant, “all these words”, INCLUDED the Law, you know, all that stuff between Exodus chapters 19 and 24? Where you err is that you think you can parse the Covenant; pick and choose what applies and what does not. Sacrifices and the priesthood, for example. HRMers say that the letter to the Hebrews was only about those things, but the Old Covenant itself is not subject to parsing; it is a comprehensive UNIT.

        So when Jeremiah 31 speaks of a New Covenant, it speaks of the whole enchilada – agreement and Law:

        31 “The time is coming,” declares the Lord,
        “when I will make a new covenant
        with the house of Israel
        and with the house of Judah.
        32 It will not be like the covenant
        I made with their forefathers
        when I took them by the hand
        to lead them out of Egypt,
        because they broke my covenant,

        “I will put my law in their minds
        and write it on their hearts.
        I will be their God,
        and they will be my people.
        No longer will a man teach his neighbor, (contrast with Mt. 5:19)
        or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
        because they will all know me,
        from the least of them to the greatest,”
        declares the Lord.
        “For I will forgive their wickedness
        and will remember their sins no more.”

        The Old Covenant did not provide for the forgiveness of sins, only the covering of them. And the Day of Atonement was an annual reminder of sins – an inextricable Feast in the Old Covenant, and in Jeremiah 31 God says, “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

        That’s New Covenant stuff right there, brother! And Good News! The Gospel!

  9. Maybe I missed it, but did you provide a verse where God says he will give a new *law*? I see forgiveness — yes — praise God! And the New Covenant (the new agreement/contract) between God and his people is *better* (because God is currently writing his torah/instructions on our hearts and minds.

    But did you provide evidence that a new *Law* would be given?

    • Hebrews 7:11-12
      11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

      12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

  10. So if the law says the speed limit is 45 MPH and you get caught doing 85 MPH and get a $200 fine and someone comes forth and pays it so you don’t have to, does that change the speed limit to 85 MPH or is the speed limit still 45 MPH?

    • Hi Stephen,

      Welcome to JGIG =o).

      No, the speed limit doesn’t change. There are probably reasons for the speed limit . . . traffic, road terrain, population center . . . all good reasons for a speed limit.

      Here’s the thing, and we’re going to shift from ‘rules of the road’ perspective to a perspective birthed out of love: The One Who Forgives the $200 fine doesn’t just pay the fine and leave the offender with his love for speed to the road with its rules. That wouldn’t change anything.

      The One Who Forgives stays with the offender, showing them how to say no to going 85 in a 45 and why. He points out the children at play, the curves and the cliffs, the intersections where there is lots of traffic, and helps the offender to see how their actions affect those around them.

      Then The One Who Forgives imparts His Love to the offender, gently showing the offender the curves and the cliffs and the possible consequences for going 85 in a 45, letting the offender know that He loves them and desires the best for them – and going over a cliff would not be the best thing. The One Who Forgives’ love for the offender shows the offender how to love those around them. Then going 85 in a 45 doesn’t seem so important anymore, as the offender learns to become connected to and love those they formerly sped past.

      Then the offender desires to drive the appropriate speed in the appropriate places, not because of signs posted (though they are good reminders), but because it’s the most loving thing to do, for the ones around them and for themselves. They honor The One Who Forgives, Who is also The One Who has set the boundaries. But the offender does not honor because of a sign posted on the side of the road, but because The One Who Forgives has imparted His Heart to the offender.

      The posting of a sign and the forgiveness of a fine produces spotty obedience, and that only out of fear for the penalty.

      That is Law.

      Seeing the road and those who share it from the perspective of The One Who Forgives, on the other hand, produces a consistent obedience birthed out of love for both He Who not only forgives but also teaches and for all others concerned.

      That is Grace.

      Titus 2:11-14
      11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

      Grace and Peace,
      -JGIG

      • // Then The One Who Forgives imparts His Love to the offender, gently showing the offender the curves and the cliffs and the possible consequences for going 85 in a 45, letting the offender know that He loves them and desires the best for them – and going over a cliff would not be the best thing. //

        I think that was Stephen’s point though. Jesus’ death/resurrection doesn’t get rid of the standard. His love for God’s standard is imparted to us via the holy spirit. God’s instruction doesn’t change though — and this is important. Our stony hearts are what changes.

        :o)

      • Hi Rob,

        It’s not a love for the standard that God imparts to us, it’s a love for Him and others that He imparts to us. And that love is what fulfills the requirements of the Law. The Law is not the focus, love is.

        1 John 4:16-19
        God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

        19 We love because he first loved us.

        Romans 13:8-10
        8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

      • // It’s not a love for the standard that God imparts to us, it’s a love for Him and others that He imparts to us. //

        Why can’t it be “both/and”? The Tanakh and Apostolic Scriptures all speak of loving both God *AND* loving God’s instructions. Psalm 119, the longest chapter in the entire bible, speaks clearly of what this love looks like.

        Not my intention to strive on this issue. Just offer a different perspective.

        Grace and Peace,

        Rob

      • Rob, it can’t be both/and; that’s mixing covenants, and it can’t be done. The biggest flaw with that is that Jesus cannot even administer the Old Covenant; He is of the Tribe of Judah, not Levi. The Covenant Christ Jesus administers is one where He sits in the Heavenly Tabernacle, His Work complete:

        Hebrews 10:1-14
        The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

        5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

        “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
        but a body you prepared for me;
        6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
        you were not pleased.
        7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
        I have come to do your will, my God.’”

        8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

        11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties [this is the Levitical Priesthood]; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [this is the priesthood of Christ] 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

        And we know from Hebrews 7:12 this:
        12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

      • That is SO out of context! The ONLY requirement of the the Law Jesus fulfilled was the sacrificial part! The entire passage you quote from speaks of sacrifice, not the Law as a whole!

      • Stephen, the Law as a whole required that sacrifices be made year after year – that was the Law! It was given as a comprehensive unit; you cannot dissect it into ‘keepable’ portions. Jesus fulfilled the Law; He said He came to do that – either He did it or He lied. Which is it?

        Matthew 5:17-18
        17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

        Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would by any means disappear from the Law until everything (in the Law) was accomplished. The sacrificial system in the Law has demonstrably disappeared, as has the Temple, yes? Is the sacrificial system a part of the jots and tittles or not?

      • JGIG writes:

        // Rob, it can’t be both/and; that’s mixing covenants, and it can’t be done. //

        I don’t believe loving God and loving the commandments God gave is a bad thing. In fact, it’s the mark of the New Covenant:

        “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my Law/Torah within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Jer. 31:33)

        The phrase “Write it on their hearts” means they will come to love God and love His instructions.

        I’m not sure how fruitful a discussion on the differences between “Law” and “Covenant” would be, since your mind seems to be made up on this already. It’s not my intention to strive over these matters, just offer my opinion. I wish you nothing but the best.

      • New Covenant, not like the Old. Very clear in the Scriptures.

        New commandments? Yes. New Instructions (Torah)? Yes.

        1 John 3:21-24
        21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

        God doesn’t want us to love His instructions; He wants us to love HIM and the people around us. Any law contained in the Old Covenant that God wants us to ‘keep’ is fulfilled when we love Him and love others. The really amazing thing is that although love is a command, it’s also a Fruit of the Spirit, and will naturally flow out from our Life in Him.

        And I agree, Rob, I don’t see that continuing would be fruitful; we’ve both made our points. Let’s let it rest and let God and the reader judge between us.

        -JGIG

      • Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

        “You who practice LAWLESSNESS!”
        You, my friend, are teaching lawlessness–consider yourself warned!
        Shalom!

      • How is walking in the righteousness of Christ practicing ‘LAWLESSNESS’? Is the writer of Hebrews lying when he tells us that “10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” and “14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”, or are you taking an Old Covenant Scripture out of context to heap condemnation on those who are secure in Christ? (Rhetorical question =o).)

      • Note I said the only part Jesus fulfilled was the sacrificial part. He FULFILLED IT! He did not do away with the sacrificial part, it simply changed. No longer does God require dead animal sacrifices to cover our sins, Jesus took care of that. His requirement is now A LIVING SACRIFICE–Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

      • Noted. Note that Jesus never made such a distinction.

      • Oh, he didn’t? I’ll let Jesus speak on that one–

        Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

        Mark 10:21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

        Luke 5:27 After this, Jesus went out and saw a tax collector by the name of Levi sitting at his tax booth. “Follow me,” Jesus said to him, 28 and Levi got up, left everything and followed him.

        Luke 18:22
        When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

        Mark 8:35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.

      • Two things:

        1) What do people do on crosses? They die. Dead people are not under Law (see Rom. 7:1-6).

        2) The self-righteous rich young ruler came to Jesus, confident in his keeping of the Law, yet Jesus pointed out to him where he fell short: the man loved money more than God and was living in disobedience to the first two commandments. Jesus did that over and over – he showed the self-righteous where they lacked, and it was always something about which they knew they would always fall short; “23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy.”

        Let’s look at part of the account of the same incident in Matthew 19:17: “17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”

        The way I read that is that Jesus is the only One Who could keep the commandments (there is only ONE who is good), only ONE entitled to Eternal Life, Christ Jesus. So when Jesus says this, in John 6:28-29, He’s not throwing out the hopeless ‘be perfect’ to those who cannot achieve it, but showing them that their hope in Him, for them to place their faith and trust in Him – to be in Christ:

        John 6:28-29
        28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
        29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

        Think how many times the New Covenant Scriptures describe who we are in Christ and what that means! And the concept of believing in Him for our righteousness (being made right with God, not through our lawkeeping but through Christ Who kept the Law on our behalf) is all through the New Covenant Scriptures.

        Back to Matthew 19 – it’s another case of Jesus preaching the Law to those under the Law on the Old Covenant side of the Cross while proclaiming the New Covenant to come in Him on the other side of the Cross.

        It’s a really good example of how looking at the Scriptures through a Torah lens vs. a Gospel lens can affect the outcome of your paradigm: Torah folk see ‘if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments’. Grace folk see ‘There is only One Who is good.’

        It’s the classic ‘what do I have to do’ mentality vs. the ‘in Whom must I abide’ mentality.

        One cannot arrive at the Truth unless they come to grips with the Deity (perfection and impeccability, complete God-hood) of Christ and the completeness of His Work on our behalf – The Cross and what that accomplished, the Resurrection and what that accomplished, the Ascension and what that accomplished, and the giving of His Holy Spirit and what that accomplishES (continuous, progressive work in and through us). Unless one comes to fully grasp those simple Truths of the Gospel, one will always feel like their security is based on their performance. No rest in that =o/.

      • The scripture you quote from Hebrews says nothing about the law being done away with. It only addresses sacrifices so you prove my point.

      • The whole letter to the Hebrews is about how the New Covenant is a better covenant built on better promises, with a New Priesthood. The New Covenant is completely NEW Covenant, Stephen. The Scriptures are clear.

      • Scriptures are clear. Put on your Holy Spirit glasses so you can see them!

      • I’m content to let God and the reader judge between us, Stephen =o).

      • So Grace gives you the ability to follow the Law?

      • Is that what the New Covenant Scriptures say? We are told over and again that those in Christ are not under the Law; in fact that we are dead to the Law (Rom 7) – so why would Grace give us the ability to follow something that we have died to? In fact, the Scriptures tell us this:

        Law was given to increase sin:
        Romans 5:20
        20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.

        Law stirs up sin:
        Romans 7:7-8
        7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

        Law produces death:
        Romans 7:9-11
        9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.

        Law produces fruit unto death:
        Romans 7:5
        5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

        Law is the power of sin:
        1 Corinthians 15:56
        56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

        People sin under Law; people sin under Grace. If less sin/a reduction of sin is what you’re looking for in your life, then Grace is the way to go:

        Grace teaches us godliness:
        Titus 2:11-14
        11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It [grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

        The Spirit produces life:
        Romans 8:5-6
        5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

        The Spirit produces the Fruits of the Spirit:
        Galatians 5:22-25
        22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

      • Is that what the New Covenant scriptures say? You said it in these words
        “Then the offender desires to drive the appropriate speed in the appropriate places, not because of signs posted (though they are good reminders), but because it’s the most loving thing to do, for the ones around them and for themselves.”

        The greatest commandment is “love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.” The second is “love your neighbor as yourself.” You follow the sign first and foremost because God said it. You follow it secondly because of the repercussions your sin has on others. Your love for God first and foremost (as Jesus said) should be your main reason for doing the speed limit. Without loving him you cannot love others–

        You are leaving God and what he said out of this equation.

      • You’re leaving the New Creation out of the equation. It’s not Law that teaches us to love, Stephen, it’s His Spirit.

      • The law is supposed to be now written on your heart and mind if you are a new creation. Are you desiring to know the law or disregard it? THAT is the difference that decides whether you are truly born again. If your salvation experience turns you against the Law of God, I have to question the validity of the experience–

      • The New Covenant Laws (instructions, or Torah, if you prefer) are this:

        1 John 3:23
        23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

        The walking out of my salvation both rests in and is empowered by those two commands. Putting my faith and trust in Christ Jesus (the first command) establishes my position with God, enables Him to indwell me with His Holy Spirit and empowers me to carry out the second command: love one another. Totally valid =o).

  11. I am elated you do not have that much influence over people with your anti semitic preaching. Your mind is closed and your heart is hardened to anything else but what you believe. Your warning has been given, it is now up to you. May God have mercy on you for your false teaching and I pray you come to his true saving grace and enjoy the freedom and the honor we have to follow his Torah.

    • Stephen, you bear false witness; there is no anti-semitism here. You throw out that accusation with no proof because there is none, because there is no anti-semitism here – sheesh.

      “May God have mercy on” me? For what? From what? You’re speaking judgement against a cleansed-by-the-Blood-of-Christ, having received the Gift of Righteousness, indwelt-by-His-Holy Spirit-believer in Christ, Stephen. Believers in Christ are destined for Torah pursuance; that’s Old Covenant. Believers in Christ are destined for Freedom in Christ; that’s New Covenant Truth:

      Hebrews 8:6
      6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

      Galatians 5:1-2
      Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
      2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    • That’s a strange accusation. Anti-semitic? I’ve known a lot of Messianic Jews in my life, and have had the privilege of actually meeting the late greats Moshe Rosen and Art Katz. I’ve also met a number of Messianic Jews in Israel. Very, very few of them espouse Torah-keeping.

      Further, yes, you’re free to follow the Torah, and yes, there’s nothing wrong with keeping the Torah as much as you are able. But you’re also free to not follow the Torah, because we have NEW testament, in Yeshua the Messiah. Yet I doubt you are free.

      Too many Christians have failed to identify themselves with Yeshua in the Spirit, and wish to identify with Him in the flesh. This is not exclusive to the HRM, though. Catholics identify with Peter, and Baptists tend to identify with John the Baptist, and Pentecostal-Charismatics tend to identify with the anointing of the Holy Spirit (skipping ahead a bit). This “lust of the flesh” is particular to the more melancholy, artistic personalities who have a morbid fascination with finding their “true self.”

      Another “lust of the flesh” is “the lust for righteousness.” That sounds odd, but follow–righteousness, by definition, is good. Hungering after it is good. But how to satisfy that hunger? If you follow the dictates of your hunger, that’s a lust, and that’s bad. If you follow the Shepherd, the source of your food, that’s love, and that’s good. Compulsively following a set of rules and ideals in order to be approved of by the Father, when you already are approved of, and trying to be clean, when He has already made you clean, will only lead you into a death-spiral of blotting out every imperfection you find. The more rules you make, the more imperfections you find, which leads you to make more rules, which means….

      If you identify with the Jews, you will not take on the characteristics of Yeshua the Messiah, but the characteristics of the Jews, both good and bad. For all the zeal and gabbiness, there’s the literal encyclopedia of rules and the endless kibbitzing. The unexamined passage of Romans 11 doesn’t say we’re grafted into Israel, but that the Jews are the native branch to a particular tree, the root of which is not Hebrew, but Yeshua the Messiah Himself. The tree is the Kingdom of God, the tree of life, which bears the fruit of the Holy Spirit. We gentile believers are wild olive branches grafted into the Kingdom, not Israel.

      Hence, the very term “Jewish Roots” or “Hebrew Roots” can be incredibly prone to abuse, and in the final analysis, as Art Katz would say, it’s another form of harlotry. You’re supposed to be married to the Messiah, and be a citizen of the Kingdom. Instead, you’re trying mix the Kingdom with Israel according to the flesh. You belong to the Shepherd. Why are you following a lust for rules, a law of the Medes & Persians, which is a ravenous bear?

  12. Shalom!
    Who is right? I believe the law of Moses is given to the house of Israel, not to the Gentiles. It is written on stones. It is the letter that kills, because no one can keep it. Every one is under the death penalty, that is under the old covenant. Jesus Christ astablished the new covenant, a new one with new instructions (Mat 28:20), both for Jews and Gentiles giving us grace and truth, He is the way. The law of Christ is different, it is to love our enemies, not to lust in our hearts, not to strife with our brothers and sisters, to forgive or we will not be forgiven etc.

    Paul warned us that who wants to be circumcised and be saved through the law of Moses, must keep the whole law. Anyone that tells us we have to keep the law of Moses, bring us back to the old covenant that will kill us, we will fall away from the grace. The law is not abolished, only the believers in Christ are not under the law, that walk after the Spirit of God. To walk in the Spirit we must be filled with the Spirit, and this is an ongoing prozess.

    Furthermore the law teaches us what sin is, so it is not wrong to study the law because it is good and even keeping Sabbath or the feasts of the Lord IMO is better then to keep the pagan feasts after the traditions of Rome. But this is not an issue of salvation so long we are under grace and believe that Jesus fulfilled the law and we believe in the finished work of Christ at the cross and the forgiveness of sin. It is also not an issue of keeping the law, but of truth and do what is right.

    So if we are dead to sin, how we can sin and how we know what sin is? When we walk according to the Spirit we will not sin, but when we walk according to our flesh we will sin, and here is the problem, whom we obey makes the difference. The Spirit of God will convict us of sin and we will repent. It is important to be let by the Spirit and to hear His voice.

    It is also important not to be deceived by the doctrin of men. There is no licence for sin in the NT. Rom 2:12 “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law” There is no eternal security, but a conditional security, continuance in well doing, obeying the truth, that is repentance and not all my sins are forgiven past, present and future without repentance. ASOS is a lie, the same as the seal of the Holy Spiril is eternal security. God showed me that a so-called spiritfilled believer who commited adultery and thought he is still saved without repentance was filled with spirituell darkness and there are witnesses that were in hell that those “believers” are in hell. When the light becomes dark how great the darkness will be, there will be gnashing of the teeth. Lucifer the lightbearer became spirituell darkness, when he sinned, do not become his slave.
    God bless!

    • Hi Benjamin,

      Welcome to JGIG =o).

      I was with you for the first two paragraphs – but then you started mixing Law and Grace, and they were never meant to be mixed.

      You are welcome to believe whatever you wish concerning eternal security; I have made the case for what I believe. As for your example of the believer who commits adultery without repentance will go to Hell, if you say that, then what un-repented of sins would that believer NOT go to Hell for? Where do you draw the line? What if they lie and forget about it and don’t repent? Will that sin ‘send’ them to Hell? We are told in Galatians and James that if one breaks one Law they break them all, so the sin of lying makes one as guilty as the sin of adultery or murder. If every un-repented of sin of believers will send them to Hell, Heaven would likely be empty!

      Here’s an excerpt from a post over at Escape2Reality:

      We don’t earn grace by doing good; neither do we forfeit grace by doing evil. If anything, His grace shines all the more when we sin (Rom 5:20). The purpose of grace is to give you life where sin has given you death. Grace is the antidote to the poison of sin. Now that you’ve been saved from death, stop drinking the poison. Drink instead from the well of His life.

      4. If God loves me and my salvation is secure, then why can’t I keep doing what I’m doing?

      Because sin is stupid. It’s like texting on the freeway. Just because you can do it, doesn’t mean you should. The world will tell you that “if it feels good, do it” and “as long as it’s harming no one, what’s the problem?” But these two mantras are flawed. Live from your feelings and you’ll end up enslaved to your appetites. You will be a shadow of your real self.

      This is the true message of the cross. When we seek to save ourselves by doing what seems right in our own sight, we lose ourselves, but when we trust Him, then we really live. Understand that I am not calling you to take a vow of chastity. Aside from the fact that law-based solutions don’t work, this is not the life God has called us to. Following Jesus is not about starving the flesh – that’s asceticism and it’s as much a flesh-trip as any indulgence. Following Jesus is about reckoning yourself dead to the world and it dead to you and allowing Him to live His life through you. Trust me – His life is way more fun than yours!

      To read the above quoted post in its entirety, click HERE.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 249 other followers

%d bloggers like this: