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    Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

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    Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

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    It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

    Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

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Hebrew Roots Movement – The Perversion of Repentance

Another one of the pillars in the Hebrew Roots Movement and related belief systems/sects, is their re-definition of the word “repent” or “repentance”.  They skew the meaning of repent in order to point the unsuspecting believer toward the Law of Moses and away from the Law of Christ.   If one forgets the transformative power and role of the Holy Spirit, along with the realities of the New Covenant, and fail to take an honest look at the language, one might be deceived and find themselves feeling “commanded” into wearing tzit tzit and and attempting to keep the laws of a covenant no longer in effect.

The following article from Pristine Faith Restoration Society makes many excellent points and observations about the HRM and does a really good job in taking on HRM assertions regarding the language and concepts of the word “repent”.  The author deals specifically with the teaching of Brad Scott, considered to be a “mainstream” teacher in the Hebrew Roots Movement. 

 As with other articles posted here at JGIG, the posting of an article does not mean that I agree with or endorse everything from a given website, but find the core issues of the faith to be intact and the value of an article to outweigh any “secondary issue” disagreements I may have with a given source.   This article will also be posted at the Articles Page here at JGIG.

May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.  -JGIG

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Perversion of Repentance
by Tim Warner

Criterion for Understanding the New Testament
According to many teachers in the Hebrew Roots movement, the Gentile mind is not equipped to properly comprehend Scripture. They draw a distinction between “Gentile thinking” and “Jewish thinking.” This distinction is alleged to be more than merely having different presuppositions, but rather a completely different thought process and basis for understanding. Consequently, Gentiles need a thorough education in “Jewish thinking” in order to understand the New Testament. This includes instruction in the Hebrew language. A converted Gentile cannot normally read the Old and New Testaments and arrive at a proper understanding without a Jewish teacher. Having been taught “at the feet” of some Jewish scholar or rabbi is the claimed credential of several prominent “teachers” of the Hebrew Roots movement.  [See "Doublemindedness in the Hebrew Roots Movement - The Use of Kabbalah and Gemetria" for a better understanding of just what being taught "at the feet" of some Jewish scholar or rabbi means.]

Historically, Christians have always believed that the Old Testament is sufficient background material for the New Testament. Paul distinguished between those who are able to comprehend and those who are not. The criterion he gave has nothing to do with the Hebrew language or “Jewish thinking.”

11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. (1 Cor. 2:11-15 NKJV)

According to Paul, even “Jewish scholars” do not understand the things of God unless they have received the Spirit of God. Jesus Himself gave us a pretty good picture of the unconverted “Jewish Scholar” in Matthew 23. It is therefore critical that modern Hebrew Roots teachers fully disclose to their hearers the names of the “Jewish Scholars” under whose instruction they have learned. And those “scholars” should be carefully scrutinized to see whether they are true believers.

The New Testament was Primarily Written to Gentile Minds
With the exception of Matthew, Hebrews, 1 Peter, and James, the New Testament was written by the Apostles for Gentile minds. The New Testament contains almost no explanatory background information about Jewish thinking. The Apostles frequently quoted the Old Testament, without comment, as supporting material to the particular point they were making. References to Old Testament events were frequently given as illustrations and moral lessons in the language of the Greeks. More often than not, they quoted the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Old Testament. The Greek speaking reader was expected to be familiar with the Septuagint, and this was deemed by the Apostles to be sufficient for understanding their own writings in the New Testament. The Apostles frequently quoted from the Greek translation of the Old Testament with which their readers were familiar. There was no appeal made by the Apostles to extra biblical Jewish sources for explanatory information. One wonders why modern Gentile Christians need such sources when the Apostles obviously did not think it beneficial for their Gentile audiences in the first century who knew little about Jewish thinking. In fact, Jesus Himself was antagonistic to such sources, claiming they perverted the Word of God (Matt. 15:2-14). The Jewish scholarly commentaries were characterized by Jesus as “the blind leading the blind” (v. 14).

Why would modern Christians, who have received the “Spirit of Truth,” want to be taught by “the Blind?” Yet, such is now the case in this movement.

Some might contend that in the context of the early Church, there was a great deal of oral teaching by the Jewish Apostles, and the Epistles were merely supplementary material. That is true in some cases. Paul spent three years in Ephesus before writing his epistle to this church. However, the major theological treatise on the Law (Romans) was written by Paul to a local church no Apostle had yet visited. His second Epistle on the Law and grace, Galatians, was written to the churches (plural) of Galatia, of which we have no direct record of his spending time in discipleship. Yet, Paul expected that the Greek Old Testament (LXX) would be adequate background material for the Gentile mind to comprehend his teaching on the covenants, the Law, and grace.

Is “Repentance” Turning Back to Moses?
In his website article series on “repentance,” Brad Scott made his real intentions clear in the closing paragraph of part I.

“The foundation of repentance is the return to where you came from. The root of repentance is to go back to something. Adam came from the dust, and that is where he will teshuvah, or return to. The root of repentance is to go back to something. It is what we are to go back to, that is critical.”1 [Bold mine]

Scott is intent on incorporating into the term “repentance” the idea of returning to a former condition. And as he stated in the above quote, the thing to which one is to return is the critical factor. In Scott’s theology, this is a return to God’s laws revealed through Moses, the ultimate destination for his followers. He made this point crystal clear.

“The very first words that we hear from Yochanan the immerser (John the Baptizer) is REPENT! Who was he speaking these words to? the Nations? Of course not. The nations would not have a clue as to what to go back to! He speaks this word to the local Jewish leadership. Yochanan is pleading in behalf of Yahshua for YHVH’s covenant people to go back to the covenant. Yahshua’s first words to the Jewish leaders is to REPENT! (Mattityahu 4:17). The two main religious systems in Judaism, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, had strayed away from the Word of YHVH. He certainly knew this in advance. Go Back! YHVH says. The common myth that Judaism was a law-keeping religion that YHVH came to denounce and change is a lie. Most of the Jewish leaders of that time were big time law breakers.”2

Was Jesus Simply Moses’ Revival Preacher or The New Lawgiver?
When Jesus and John the Baptist called Israel to “repentance,” Scott wants you to believe that he was calling them back to Moses. Hence, Scott makes John and Jesus missionaries and preachers of Moses by manipulating the word “repentance,” as we shall prove shortly. The Scripture, however, does not portray Jesus as Moses’ revival preacher, but as the new Lawgiver, proclaiming a new Law far superior to that of Moses. Jesus brought the “Law of Christ,” a higher Law, which superseded the Law of Moses. It did not supplement the Law of Moses. Consequently, the “household of Christ,” according to Scripture, is not the former “household of Moses,” but a completely new “household.”

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,  6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.  (Hebrews 3:1-6 NKJV)

Paul drew a clear distinction between the “house of Moses” and the “house of Christ.” Keep in mind that Paul wrote this to Jewish believers, implying that they were no longer of the “household of Moses” after joining the “household of Christ.” A few chapters later, the Apostle expands on this distinction.

1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”   6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: [from Jer. 31:31-34]

“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—  

9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:1-13 NKJV)

The Meaning of “Repentance”
The Greek word translated “repent” in the NT is “metanoew” (me-ta-nah-eh-O), Strong’s #3340. As with a multitude of Greek verbs, it consists of a verb prefixed with a preposition. “Meta” (preposition) means “after.” And “noiew” means “understand” or “comprehend.” Hence, the basic sense of “metanoew” is “after-thought.” In modern English idiom we would say, “after second thought.” It indicates a change of mind after further contemplation. All Greek lexicons define this word as a “change of mind.” None suggest, as does Scott, that this change of mind is a return to a former place, condition, or state. In fact, it is usually a turning AWAY from a former way of thinking that is being stressed. We will list below a couple of examples of lexical definitions.

Easton’s Bible Dictionary:
Repentance
, There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance.
(1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Mat 27:3).
(2.) Metanoeo [metanoew], meaning to change one’s mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.
(3.) This verb [metanoew], with the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised. 3

Unger’s Bible Dictionary
REPENTANCE, a “change” of mind. In the theological and ethical sense a fundamental and thorough change in the hearts of men from sin and toward God. 4

The most comprehensive study of the koine Greek language from ancient Greek writings was done by the German scholar, Gerhard Kittle. His ten volume Greek lexicon (TDNT) far exceeds all other lexicons. While most Greek lexicons trace Greek word usage in the NT and the LXX, Kittle adds massive evidence from thousands of secular Greek manuscripts written in both classical and koine Greek of the period. There is no better source for understanding the “common” meanings of Greek words in every day life of the first century. According to Kittle’s TDNT, “metanoew” (repent) was used in secular Greek literature of the period to mean, “change one’s mind,” “adopt another view,” or “change one’s feelings.” He gives many examples of these in Greek literature. Kittle then adds, “…if the change of mind derives from recognition that the earlier view was foolish, improper or evil, there arises the sense ‘to regret,’ ‘to feel remorse’.” He cites many examples of this as well.5 In no case does Kittle suggest the idea of returning to a former place, state, or condition, as part of the Greek word “repent” in common Greek usage. Brad Scott is simply wrong.

In the face of massive contrary linguistic evidence, Scott alleges that Christianity has redefined “repentance” to suite its own ends. Yet, as we shall see, it is Scott who has done precisely what he alleges of Gentile Christians – twist the meaning to suite his own purpose.

Scott’s Manipulation of “Repentance”
Scott completely ignores the etymology of “metanoew” and all the lexical evidence, all the while pretending to offer a more nuanced definition which he claims is derived from the Hebrew equivalent. He claims that Jesus, John, and their hearers would have held his view of “repentance” because of their Hebrew background and alleged equivalent Hebrew term with which they would have been intimately familiar.

“When Yahshua and Yochanan (John the baptizer) said to the P’rushim (Pharisees), ‘repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand’ what did they mean by repent? Do you really believe the meaning of repent in the English or the Greek is what they meant? Do you believe that 23,214 verses of teaching in the Tenach (Old Testament) about this word is irrelevant?”6

Scott gives the impression, in the above quote, that there are over twenty-three thousand verses in the Old Testament that contain teaching on the word “repent,” and that all modern lexicons ignore this “teaching.” The fact is, there is only a handful of Old Testament verses that use the verb “repent,” or its noun form “repentance,” and not one of them supports Scott’s definition.

Scott’s “Shell Game” Exposed
Brad Scott plays a “shell game” with the Hebrew words. He declares by fiat that the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word “metanoew” (repent) is the Hebrew word, “shoov” (Strong’s #7725). He offers not one shred of linguistic or historical evidence in support of this claim, which is THE fundamental premise of his entire series of articles on repentance.

While it is true that “shoov” (or “shoob”) does mean “return” in many cases, it does not always. Strong’s Hebrew lexicon states this very clearly.

7725  שׁוּב      shûb  shoob  A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again:”7 [emphasis mine]

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia adds that “shoov” can either mean “return” or “turn away,” the latter having nothing to do with returning to a former place or state.8 Numerous examples of this meaning can be found, (Gen. 27:44-45 for example). 

Even IF “shoov” (shoob) was the Hebrew equivalent for the Greek “metanoew” (repent), which it is not, it would not prove Scott’s point. Even the Hebrew word “shoov” is used in Old Testament contexts where the idea of returning back to a former state, place, or condition is clearly not intended, as Strong’s lexicon and the ISBE point out. Consequently, the meaning Scott seeks to squeeze out of this word is NOT always essential to its basic meaning, and therefore not necessarily the sense even if it was the exact equivalent for the Greek word for “repent” in the New Testament. Had Scott been successful in establishing equivalence between the Hebrew, “shoov,” and the Greek “metanoew,” the most he would have accomplished would be to establish a possibility, but not a necessity. In other words, had Jesus and John the Baptist used the Hebrew word “shoov” instead of the Greek “metanoew” they might have meant “turn away” rather than “turn back” (to Moses) as Scott insists.

Earlier I used the term “shell game” to describe what Scott has done. The “shell game” is a classic swindle in which slight of hand is used to fool the target of the con. And slight of hand is what Scott has apparently done here. The way to determine equivalence between words of different languages is to examine ancient translations from one language to the other. There are two such sources for determining equivalence between Old Testament Hebrew words and New Testament Greek words. They are the Septuagint (LXX), and the Apostles’ quotes of the Old Testament in the New Testament. It is a simple thing to search the Septuagint (LXX) to verify Hebrew equivalents for Greek terms. There are no New Testament Apostolic quotes of the Old Testament that use the word “repent.” We are left with the Septuagint as our source.

One cannot accuse the LXX translators of “Gentile thinking” or any bias against Judaism, since they were themselves Jewish scholars living shortly before the appearance of Jesus Christ. They were far more fluent in the Hebrew of the Torah and ancient Greek than any modern Hebrew Roots teacher, including Brad Scott. They translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek, choosing the best Greek equivalents for the Hebrew words of the Old Testament. If Scott were correct in his claim that John and Jesus had the Jewish idea of “return” contained in the word “shoov” when they spoke of “repentance” in the Gospels, we would expect the LXX translators to render the Hebrew word “shoov” as “metanoew” (repent) in their Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. However, not once did those seventy Jewish scholars translate “shoov” as “metanoew” in their Greek translation of the Old Testament! So, not only does Scott’s view flow counter to all modern linguistic scholars, but also the Jewish scholars of the Septuagint!

The Jewish translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word “metanoew” (repent) in their translation. But, when it appears, it translates the Hebrew word, “nacham” (Strong’s #5162), not “shoov.” They used “metanoew” sixteen times in their Greek translation in the following verses: 1 Sam. 15:29, Prov. 20:25, Prov. 24:32, Jer. 4:28, Jer. 8:6, Jer. 18:8,10, Jer. 31:19 (38:19 in LXX), Joel 2:13,14, Am. 7:3,6, Jon. 3:9,10, Jon. 4:2, Zech. 8:14.

In each of these verses, “metanoew” translates the Hebrew word “nacham” (#5162), except in Prov. 20:25 & Prov. 24:32. And in neither of these exceptions do we find the Hebrew word “shoov.” In the former it translates a Hebrew term that means to “inquire,” and in the latter it translates two Hebrew words meaning to “make to understand.”

So, what is the meaning of the Hebrew word “nacham” which the LXX translators rendered as “metanoew?” The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says that nacham “implies difficulty in breathing, hence, ‘to pant,’ ‘to sigh,’ ‘to groan’ … Naturally it came to signify ‘to lament’ or ‘to grieve,’ and when the emotion was produced by the desire of good for others, it merged into compassion and sympathy, and when incited by a consideration of one’s own character and deeds it means ‘to rue,’ ‘to repent’.”9 In no case does “nacham” mean to return to a previous place, state, or condition.

Furthermore, there are a few verses in the Hebrew Bible where both Hebrew words “shoov” and “nacham” appear together in the same sentence, but are mutually exclusive! In other words, the context clearly shows that they are NOT the same thing, but were being contrasted with each other, or their diverse meanings were used to compliment each other. For example, Jer. 31:19 says this: “Surely after that I was turned (shoov) I repented (nacham).” That these two words are contrasted in this way proves their meanings are not the same. If “shoov” means “repent,” as Scott claims, then Jeremiah said, “After I repented I repented,” a rather nonsensical statement! The meaning is precisely as the NKJV renders it, “Surely after that I was turned (changed course), I repented (regretted the former course).”

In Jer. 4:28, the Lord made a similar contrasting statement using both terms. “I have purposed it, and will not repent (nacham), neither will I turn back (shoov) from it.” The word “neither” in the above sentence indicates contrasting ideas, NOT a restatement of the same idea. Consequently, “shoov” (translated “return”) and “nacham” (translated “repent”) do NOT have the same meaning. The former means to “retreat” or “return” and the later “to change the mind” or “regret.”

Joel 2:14 uses both terms as well. “Who knoweth if He will return (shoov) and repent (nacham) and leave a blessing behind Him.” Here the two terms have a cumulative effect, hoping that God will do two distinct things: return to His favor for Israel and also change His mind (or regret) regarding His intent to judge Israel.

We have at least two hard pieces of evidence that “shoov” and “nacham” do not have the same meaning. First, both terms are used in the same sentences in contrast to each other. Second, the LXX translators frequently rendered “nacham” as “metanoew,” but never rendered  “shoov” as “metanoew.” They did not view “shoov” and “metanoew” as equivalent terms.

If the LXX translators, who knew both Hebrew and Greek, did not see “shoov” and “nacham” as equivalent, or more importantly, did not see “shoov” and “metanoew” as equivalent, why would we suppose that Jesus and John the Baptist did, or their hearers?

More importantly, why should we think Brad Scott knows more about linguistics than the Jewish translators of the LXX and authors of all Greek lexicons? If the LXX translators did not think “metanoew” meant “to return to where you came from,” neither should you. Scott has played fast and loose with the Hebrew words in order to lead you where he wants you to go, back to the Law of Moses.

Should Gentile Pagans “Return” to Where They Came From?
If “repent” (metanoew) in the Gospels means “to return to where you came from,” then the use of the same word in evangelizing Gentiles would mean they should return to their pagan roots, their “wild olive tree!” Scott does not seem to notice this problem. While arguing that “repent” in the Gospels requires his definition, he wrote the following;

“The very first words that we hear from Yochanan the immerser (John the Baptizer) is REPENT! Who was he speaking these words to? the Nations? Of course not. The nations would not have a clue as to what to go back to!”10

Yet, Paul encouraged the Gentiles to “repent” as part of his evangelism.

21 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. (Acts 26:19-20)

Here, Scott’s definition of “return to where you came from” simply will not work in the context. “Works befitting repentance” in Scott’s bogus lexicon would be offering sacrifices to Zeus or the goddess Dianna! The same problem appears in the other passages that speak of Gentile “repentance,” none of which suggest “return to where you came from.” (Acts 17:30, Acts 26:20), and the noun form “repentance” (Luke 24:47, Acts 11:18, 2 Cor. 7:10, 2 Pet. 3:9). Jesus told the disciples, when sending them out to the Gentiles with the Great Commission, “that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations” (Luke 24:47). How does Brad Scott suppose these Gentiles would “have a clue as to what to go back to?”

Other Greek Words Mean “Return” or “Turn Back”
There are other common Greek words that mean “return back” and “return again.” First, “upostrefw” (hupo-strepho  Strong’s #5290) comes from the preposition “hupo” (under or back) and “strepho” (to turn). Examples can be found in Luke 1:56, Luke 2:20,43,45, Luke 4:1,14). Second, “anastrefw” means “return again,” from the preposition “ana” (again) and “strepho” (to turn). This latter term is probably the closest to the Hebrew “shoov” as Scott defines it. Yet, it is nowhere used in the New Testament in the sense Scott promotes, a turning back to the Law of Moses. In fact, it is never used in an evangelistic sense in the New Testament.

What is painfully obvious from Scott’s treatment of “repentance” is that he is manipulating the evidence to suite his purposes. His work is unscholarly, manipulative, and malicious, in my humble opinion.

The “Judaizers” (neo-Galatians) are Back
A distinction needs to be made between two classes of modern “Law keepers” – those who practice “Law keeping” as a preference but not a necessity (Messianics who are Jewish by birth), and those who claim or imply that it is a salvation issue and binding on Gentiles. Brad Scott clearly falls into this latter category, what is commonly referred to as a “Judaizer.” Scott is proclaiming the same heresy Paul called “another gospel.” Here it is in Brad Scott’s  own words.

“I am going to, very bluntly, tell you that without a scriptural understanding of repentance, you are NOT redeemed or reconciled back to YHVH. To put it more perfectly, as Sha’ul would say, you are not saved.”11

By making his definition of “repentance” synonymous with a “return” to keeping the Law of Moses, Scott is essentially saying that observance of the Law of Moses is necessary to salvation.

Furthermore, he places all Christians who are not “Torah observant” within the category of the “workers of iniquity” to whom Jesus promised to answer, “depart from Me, I never knew you.” He equates this with the “mystery of iniquity” which gives birth to the Antichrist. Here it is in Brad Scott’s own words.

“If you are curious to know who the workers of iniquity are in Mattityahu 7:23, you can find them here. They are those who are TORAHLESS, lawless ones. This is the translation of the King James English, “workers of iniquity”. It is also a description of their leader, whether they know it or not, in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8. He is the mystery of iniquity that already works and is called the wicked one or the lawless one.”12

Scott’s claim that his perverted “repentance” (return to the Law of Moses) is essential to salvation puts him and his movement in the same camp as the ancient Judaizers who “troubled” and “unsettled” the Gentile believers. Paul called that message “another gospel” and told the Galatians that those who embraced it were “estranged from Christ” and “fallen from grace” (Gal. 5:4).

We would do well to keep in mind the letter to the Gentiles, approved by all the Apostles and elders of the Jerusalem congregation.

“The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings,

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, ‘You must be circumcised and keep the law’ — to whom we gave no such commandment — it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15:23-24).

NOTES:

1. Scott, Brad; Repentance Part I; http://www.wildbranch.org/Archive/lesson16.html; Wild Branch Ministries
2. Scott, Brad; Repentance Part II; http://www.wildbranch.org/Archive/lesson17.html
3. Easton’s Bible Dictionary, article on “Repentance” (electronic version)
4. Unger’s Bible Dictionary, article on “Repentance” (electronic version)
5. Kittle; TDNT, Vol. IV, pp. 976-977
6. Scott, Brad; Repentance Part I; http://www.wildbranch.org/Archive/lesson16.html. Strong, Hebrew Lexicon of Old Testament Words, #7725 (electronic version)
8. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, article on “Repentance” (electronic version)
9. ibid
10. Scott, Brad; Repentance Part II; http://www.wildbranch.org/Archive/lesson17.html
11. Scott, Brad; Repentance Part I; http://www.wildbranch.org/Archive/lesson16.html. Scott, Brad; Repentance Part III;
12. Scott, Brad; Repentance Part III; http://www.wildbranch.org/Archive/lesson18.html

 © Tim Warner, September 2007

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Refer also to the following post, which contains a word study on the word, ‘repent’, that you may find helpful: 

Other articles of interest:

For more resources regarding the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movements see the Post Index and the Articles Page.  General study helps, discernment, and apologetics sites can be found HERE.   Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

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143 Responses

  1. I submit to you that the law of Moses and the law of Christ are one and the same. Deut. 13:1-5 says, “If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him, and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and cleave to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from the midst of you.” If Christ came to die and do away with the law of Moses then he was a FALSE PROPHET. He said in Matt. 5:17-19 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” So I ask you, did Christ come to do away with the law of Moses? If He is the greatest in the Kingdom, then does not make sense He not only teaches Torah in the millennial reign (Is. 2:3) but that He followed the Torah during the time of His first coming? May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider these things.

  2. Normally I dont respond to these ignorant rants that so called believers in Messiah make but this artical goes to show how little “Christians” know about Yeshua and the people of Yahweh. You show your true heart of disobedience you and men like you are why I have almost walked away from the belief you go around telling men to turn to God then claim that God lets you live anyway you want with no commandments and no acountability. You call on Grace yet walk in definent sin saying that any odedience is Legalism yet it was a Prophet of Yahweh who said that “Obedience is better than sacrifice” Paul begged you to present your bodies as living sacrfice yet you refuse to learn what Yahweh call’s an exceptible sacrfice. Yeshua and every apostal taught Lev 19. I am under Grace and because of that fact I make Yeshua Lord of my life meaning I follow His commands not to be saved but because I have been set free. You should learn the instruction of the Bond Servant then you would understand why every Writer called himself the Bond Servant of Messiah Yeshua. Second you claim that the New Testemant was written in Greek however they have now found a Hebrew copy of Matthew that dates back to the earliest manuscript of the Greek copy in fact Church History states that Matthew wrote his copy in Hebrew and then it was translated in Greek. Yeshua was a Jew followed the Jewish customs and ate as Yahweh commanded John said we should walk just as He Walked and that those who claimed they know Him and keep not His commandments is a LIAR and the TRUTH is not in him. Paul said that the spirit of Anti-Christ is disobedience and Lawlessness 1 Thess 2:7-10. What hurts me the most is when men like this say that because I choose to follow Yahweh’s commands and not their man made customs like Christmas and Easter and Pagan worship days I am a heritic, yet I do not judge you or any believer Yeshua will judge us all and prove to all who the true believers are men like this divide and devour the sheep. I am almost sure that this will not be posted but Shalom and Yahweh’s mercy be upon thee!!

    • Welcome to JGIG, Brandon.

      You wrote, “I am almost sure that this will not be posted but Shalom and Yahweh’s mercy be upon thee!!”

      Surprise! Comments like yours actually serve a valuable purpose. They demonstrate the fruit borne by those in the Law ‘keeping’ sects.

      You bear false witness in saying that this or any other post found at JGIG “goes around telling men to turn to God then claim that God lets you live anyway [sic] you want with no commandments and no acountability [sic].” What you assert here, Brandon, is simply a lie. I’m pretty sure there is a commandment about that . . .

      You also wrote, “You call on Grace yet walk in definent [sic] sin saying that any odedience [sic] is Legalism yet it was a Prophet of Yahweh who said that “Obedience is better than sacrifice” Paul begged you to present your bodies as living sacrfice [sic] yet you refuse to learn what Yahweh call’s an exceptible [sic] sacrfice [sic].” Brandon, where are you finding that in any post here at JGIG? Please provide proof for your assertions or kindly retract them.

      The issue of a bond servant is often misrepresented by those in Law ‘keeping’ sects. A bond servant is one who serves willingly rather than out of compulsion . . . the concept really has nothing to do with the keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law. If you choose to ‘keep’ Mosaic Covenant Law, that is certainly up to you. You will find no condemnation here. You will find questions asking if you truly do keep a law that can no longer be kept, however, as those who think that they ‘keep’ the Law in reality do no such thing.

      As for Greek or Hebrew Primacy of the New Testament, you say, “they have now found a Hebrew copy of Matthew that dates back to the earliest manuscript of the Greek copy in fact Church History states that Matthew wrote his copy in Hebrew and then it was translated in Greek”, yet you offer no proof or source for your assertion. Who are “they”? Where was the Hebrew copy of Matthew found? If Matthew was written in Hebrew (not a stretch seeing that Matthew’s audience was made up of the Jewish community), is that sufficient proof that the WHOLE of the New Testament was likewise written in Hebrew? How do I know you’re not making the whole thing up? What are your sources for such information so that I may check them out for myself? These questions are not designed to just give you a hard time, they are in response to Paul’s admonition for us to ‘test everything’ (1 Thes. 5:21). You will forgive me if I don’t just take your word for such assertions.

      Are you really saying that the spirit of Anti-Christ is those who are saved but do not believe that they are bound by Mosaic Covenant Law? Is that really what you’re saying? (The reference you intended, btw, is 2 Thes. 2:7-10.)

      No one here is saying that you must observe the celebrations of the birth or resurrection of Christ. Brandon, WHERE are you getting this stuff?

      I hope you spend a bit more time here at JGIG to get a better feel for the content here.

      Every blessing,
      -JGIG

      • Ma’am;

        I am enjoying your website. And I know this is quite an old thread. But in part of your rebuttal, I note you list a bondservant as one who serves willingly.

        On the contrary, the bondservant (doulos) could, yes, be someone who has willingly placed into service, but this is not necessarily true. The term could just as easily refer to someone who was a chattel slave from birth.

        And you’re right, the bondservant issue (willing OR compulsory) has nothing to do with Brandon’s point.

        Other than that slight mishandling, spot-on rebuttal.

        • Thanks, Geoff, I’m glad you’re enjoying your time here at JGIG. And you’re right, the bond-servant thing can start out either by compulsion/birth or by a contract entered into voluntarily.

          Brandon, by the way, was a rather vocal commenter here at JGIG for a time, and gave a heartfelt apology after lots of interaction here =o). You can read his post here.

          Grace and peace,
          -JGIG

          • I see it now — blessed, sweet, public repentance.

            On the Internet!

            This is virtually unheard of! :)

            Praise the Spirit of God who made this happen.

            Thank you also for putting this site together. I’ve just written a 10-page paper about the Hebrew Roots Movement for an upper-division Bible College class, and I’ll be presenting my research in front of the class in a couple weeks.

            If I had a time machine, I’d go back to the beginning of the research period, and whisper your URL in my ear … it would have made it all so much easier if I’d discovered your site earlier. I found you too late to use and cite you in my paper, but I certainly plan to recommend the site during my live presentation.

            • Thanks for the kind words about the site =o). I’m glad you’re presenting on the HRM for a Bible College class; the HRM is making inroads into Christian colleges under the guise of ‘educating’ students about the Sabbath and the Feasts. Some are enamored of the “New Perspective on Paul”, which redefines ‘faith’ (belief) as ‘faithfulness’ (works). You can read a brief overview about that here if you like.

  3. My family members (not immediate) are deeply entrenched in the Hebrew Roots movement. The more I research this, the more I realize much of the issue we’re dealing with here is based on which language is actually being used to translate the Bible. They are going back to Hebrew translations, where present day Bible translations are Greek (please correct me if I’m wrong). It seems to me both sides of this ideology are using scripture to “prove” their case.

    Am I correct in coming to the conclusion that it’s all about translation? I’ve been told the Paul has been misunderstood in the book of Galatians, in that Jesus didn’t come to abolish the law, but to uphold it. And, to not follow the OTC is an abomination to the Lord.

    Additionally, from what I’m reading about this movement, it seems to have characterists of a cult. Can you comment on that as well?

    • Hi Dee Dee, Welcome to JGIG. Sorry you have to be here, but hope you find it to be a good resource nonetheless.

      You wrote, “The more I research this, the more I realize much of the issue we’re dealing with here is based on which language is actually being used to translate the Bible. They are going back to Hebrew translations, where present day Bible translations are Greek (please correct me if I’m wrong). It seems to me both sides of this ideology are using scripture to “prove” their case.”

      Well, yes and no. Depending on the flavor of HRM/MJism you’re dealing with, they may or may not take issue with English translations of the Bible. Others reject that the New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek, because it was written, according to them, “by Hebrews, for Hebrews, about Hebrews” and then do a song and dance for Hebrew/Aramaic Primacy. Others will agree to Greek Primacy, but go on about how we “misunderstand” everything Paul ever wrote, and proceed to turn his writings to the Body of Christ completely on their head. Then there are those who throw Paul under the bus altogether, dubbing him the father of Christianity, and that that is NOT a good thing!

      Translation issues can be an element in the teachings of the HRM/MJism, I would say the the redefinition of terms is more how they arrive at the doctrines that go counter to a plain reading of Scripture. And that is characteristic of cults. At HRM websites and in HRM teaching materials a consistent technique is employed to bring the reader to where the writer wishes them to go: Faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are constructed, then those same faulty definitions, examples, analogies and reasonings are built upon as FACT to take the reader to the next doctrinal place the writer wishes the reader to go. I have seen the same technique over and over in articles on HRM websites from all points on the spectrum.

      So while translation issues certainly can be an element to certain streams of the HRM/MJism (more within the fringe elements from what I’ve observed), I think that the redefinition of terms is a tactic more widely employed.

      Also, The hermeneutic (a method or principle of interpretation) used by those teaching HRM/MJ doctrines is fluid. There is no stable underlying framework from which those in Law ‘keeping’ sects interpret and teach Scripture. They make use of eisegesis over exegesis, transliteration, Midrash, proof texting, and shift back and forth between ‘Hebraic’ thought and Western thought when it suits their purposes.

      You might find helpful information by reading through the Series Page here at JGIG.

      Blessings and prayers,
      -JGIG

      • Is this NOT some type of ‘brainwashing’? Sounds that way to me? We all speak the English translation and now we have people wanting to take the translation back to Hebrew and re-translate it again? WHAT?! Sounds sketchy to me.

        • Monica,

          It’s definitely a ‘reconditioning’ of how one thinks and processes information. I’m sure some would call that brainwashing.

          I wrote this in “12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law ‘Keepers’ Crazy” :

          10. The hermeneutic (a method or principle of interpretation) used by those teaching HRM/MJ doctrines is fluid. There is no stable underlying framework from which those in Law ‘keeping’ sects interpret and teach Scripture. They make use of eisegesis over exegesis, transliteration, Midrash, proof texting, and shift back and forth between ‘Hebraic’ thought and Western thought when it suits their purposes.

          Some will even go so far as to use ‘re-translated Scriptures’ – those translated from what they claim is the original Hebrew or Aramaic New Testament writings. In other words, they reject the Greek Primacy of the New Testament Scriptures, opening up all kinds of new interpretations of the writings to the Body of Christ as they purpose to substitute specific Greek language that the Apostles actually used in their writings with what HRM/MJ teachers consider to be Hebrew or Aramaic ‘equivalents’. Key Biblical doctrines affected by this practice are those hinging on words such as justification, repent/repentance, Word, commandment, fulfill, etc.

          If it (HR/MJism) were indeed truth, the belief system would be able to stand on a plain reading of Scripture and not have to build all kinds of theological interpretive contraptions to get Scripture to mold to their way of thinking.

          And you’re right – they will play games with words on occasion, such as the New Testament Greek ‘logos’ and ‘repent’ for example. They’ll take the Greek, change it to what they say the Hebrew ‘equivalent’ is, and then put the Hebrew definition into the New Testament Text, skewing the meaning of the text!

          Sketchy? You bet!

          Blessings,
          -JGIG

  4. Would you be willing to submit names of those teachers who are the most widely known. I know at “The Final Return” conference in St. Louis this past weekend, there were several “teachers” including Bill Cloud, Brad Scott, Jim Staley, Joel Richardson. What are your views on these people in regards to this movement.

    Also, do you know of any current information as to what Michael Rood is teaching. I know he was one of if not the leader of “The Way” movement. He has somewhat toned down the rhetoric. But, I’m having trouble finding more current info on what he believes.

    The “Two House” theology appears to be considered one of the worst parts of the movement. What are you insights to that?

    • Hi Dee Dee,
      You asked, “Would you be willing to submit names of those teachers who are the most widely known. I know at “The Final Return” conference in St. Louis this past weekend, there were several “teachers” including Bill Cloud, Brad Scott, Jim Staley, Joel Richardson. What are your views on these people in regards to this movement.”

      That is a great question, and I had an answer all typed out last night and my laptop ate it. But I was really tired and went to bed! I’ll take another swing at it today =o).

      When I purposed to start Joyfully Growing In Grace, I prayed a lot about what it should look like and what the content would be like. I had done LOTS of research into the HRM and its prominent teachers, and knew that there is a lot of info out there regarding aspects of the Law ‘keeping’ sects and teachers. As I did that research, I couldn’t find anyplace where core issues of Biblical Christianity which were under attack by the HRM and related sects were defended in a comprehensive, step-by-step way, or if they were, many of those sites also had agendas of their own (heresy-hunters who find error with everybody but themselves, KJV-onlyism, or legalistic in their own rights with their own pet doctrines).

      And I thought about how I had come to the conclusion that the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism movements and related sects were in error: It was by having a good foundation in the Scriptures, many of which had been committed to memory growing up that came bubbling up as I was presented with false teaching.

      So where I stand is here: It is not by the refutation of every Jim, Bill and Michael (or Eddie, Moshe, Avi, Monte, Brad, etc. list goes on ad nauseum) HRM/MJ teacher that believers will become equipped to recognize false teaching; it is by presenting the truths of the Scriptures that believers will become equipped to discern error. The particular area of error to which God has called me is the error found in the HRM/MJism/Netzarim and related Law ‘keeping’ sects.

      This is key to the vision at JGIG: It is on the core issues of the Faith that a belief system will stand or fall, not a refutation of who’s teaching what at any particular time.

      Teachers in the HRM are a dime-a-dozen. The movement is spreading quickly. They troll our churches and pick off those who are discontent with their church, wounded by their church, are rebellious in one way or another, or simply have itchy ears. Then there are those believers who succumb to the “If you really love God, you will . . . ” appeal, because they really do love God! I think sheepwrecked’s testimony relays that heart condition so well. Sheepwrecked was well churched her whole life – but felt like she had “missed it” and been deceived by the Church – after influence from the HRM.

      Do I know about the teachers you list above? Yes. And it’s really tempting to write about them, but defending the faith is not about them. It’s about Jesus Christ and His completed work of the Advent, His life, His Death, His Resurrection, and His Ascension. It’s all about JESUS. There are a million (at least) rabbit trails one can go down when investigating the HRM/MJism/Netzarim streams of faith. But again, as I was exposed to Law ‘keeping’ teachings, the thing that kept me on an even keel was not having information about who was teaching what (though some of that was helpful), it was holding fast to the Cross of Christ and the Gospel.

      If you go to the Series page here at JGIG, you can read about how I became aware of the Law ‘keeping’ sects and several posts dealing with issues that have come to my attention and as I have had time to write about them. The Glossary is also a good resource, along with the Articles page. On all of those pages/posts you will find many links as resources should you want to examine different issues more closely.

      The goal at JGIG is for believers to have resources and tools with which to make up their own minds about all of this. If I go head-hunting, then it becomes about false teachers, not about false teaching and refuting THAT with Biblical Truth. I’d rather not give those blokes any more screen time than they already get, kwim?

      Blessings to you,
      -JGIG

  5. I had told myself I was never going to Post here again it is useless and pointless to say the least but I keep getting these follow up coments in my email and after reading most of them I could not help it. You are about the most arogant person I have meet in a long time who are you to judge a mans heart? You believe you are doing God work but what you are really doing is causing division which God hates. So let me get this straight Christmas is good and Passover is bad Obeying God is wrong only if you believe its obeying the Torah. Guess when David said I walk in liberty because I keep your Torah some one should have told him no no thats legalism. Look I eat pork and I go to Church on Sundays and I even am a Youth Minister so no I do not keep Torah but I will not try and destroy the faith of another just to make myself feel better you are full of pride and need alot of prayer I will pray that God removes this from you shalom and blessings in the blessed name of Jesus Christ

    • Hi Brandon,

      You keep getting emails on this post because you subscribed to the comments on this post. There should be a link on each email telling you how to unsubscribe if you wish.

      As for the balance of your comment, I don’t judge men’s hearts. I do test the stuff that they teach, however. If I see something that teaches that 2+2 = 5, and write a post saying that, “No, 2+2 does not equal 5, 2+2 = 4″, that is not being divisive, that is being discerning.

      Show us all where I have ever posted that Christmas is good and Passover is bad. Anywhere. The rest of your comment is a rant detatched from anything posted here at JGIG.

      Blessings as you go,
      -JGIG

  6. And by the way I have learned alot from Monte Judah and Brad Scott they have a lot of knowledge that is Scriptualy based and true. It seems to me that you should read where Paul said not to devour one another it seems you left that out of your Galations reading.

    • Brandon,

      Do some research on those you think are teaching you truth. It’s not difficult to do, and may open your eyes to a few things.

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

  7. I stand by my post you are a very prideful person who is a divider. I do not see in you by your writtings a humble heart or a heart of Love you should heed the Word for “Pride comes before a fall” you speak down to people and are full of arogance in your words. I do not need to research anything I have meet Monte Judah in person ate with the man debated with him over verses and saw in Him a man who Loves Jesus. Have you ever meet Him? Have you ever meet any of the Men you attack or are you a keyboard coward? Its easy to sit in the bleachers yelling insults at the players. You say you dont judge a man’s heart that is exactly what you are doing you dont know any of these men personaly. So since I believe that Easter is Pagan and would rather teach my Child the meaning of the Afikoman then let them paint an egg am I Legalist? Do you even know that Paul said Christ is our Passover Lamb? And do you go around telling other Christians that Christmas is Pagan or is it only those who keep the Bibical Feasts? I hope that you will pray that God take this judgemental spirit away from you and replace it with LOVE! Insted of attacking Messianic Jews why not attack the real enemy those who pervert the Gospel with their Prosperity Message American Christianity’s Golden Calf? Just a Brother in Christ, Brandon

    • Brandon,

      May I ask why, if you find so much pride and division and arrogance, etc. here, that you keep coming back?

      I won’t discuss much about Monte Judah here, as that is not the purpose of this blog. I will say that no, I have not met him, but he does have a substantial presence on the web, so it’s not too difficult to examine his beliefs/teachings. He may very well be a nice man. His demeanor, however, does not determine whether or not what he teaches is Truth. Judging what one teaches is not judging a man’s heart. We are called to “Test everything” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), no matter how ‘nice’ or sincere the person is who is teaching us =o).

      I have stated repeatedly on JGIG that if you find joy and learn more about God through the celebration of the Feasts and/or the seventh-day Sabbath, I think that’s fine. To tell believers that they must, or they are sinning against God, however, is out of bounds. Likewise, if a believer is celebrating the Birth and Resurrection of Christ, you have no business judging them for doing so. If they are celebrating Christ (which in Him we can do everyday anyway, no matter if a specific date is significant to Pagans or not – to us as believers in Christ IT DOES NOT MATTER), why are you so bound and determined to say that they are worshipping falsely, or worse yet, actually engaging in paganism?

      You wrote, “Do you even know that Paul said Christ is our Passover Lamb?”

      Yes, Brandon, I’m aware that Paul said that Christ is our Passover Lamb. Which is why I celebrate CHRIST and not Passover! Passover POINTS to CHRIST. CHRIST is the Reality, not merely the shadow. I think there’s tons to learn through the Passover. We are not required, IN CHRIST, to observe Passover as those before the work of the Cross were required. In Christ, we are free to observe or not. The only things mandated to the Body of Christ are Baptism and remembering Christ’s work through the bread and the wine. If you want to learn about the Biblical Feasts and how they point to Christ, that’s fine. To think that you’re ‘observing’ the Feasts as Israel did, however, is simply a departure from reality.

      Brandon, I’m not attacking anybody. If you want to know my heart about all of this, go to the Series page and click on and read the posts there top to bottom. I think you’ll find that I’m not a pushover for traditional/popular churchianity and test it as I test the HRM/MJism.

      You’ve made some rather unfair assumptions about me, and you have the choice to continue to speak falsely against me or read through this site to get a more full picture of why I’m here and why I do what I do.

      Every blessing,
      -JGIG

  8. Because you need some good Christian rebuke and dont even know it. And you proved my point you are a keyboard coward sir you gossip about men you dont even know that is cowardly. You a Pharisee! A religious hipocrite you use what small amount of understanding you have to attack and slander people who disagree with how you believe you sir are guilty of the very thing you accuse these men of. I dont need to read through this post I see how you treat those who do post like Sarah and the list could go on and on you are an internet bully. You bear witness through your words sir. You are mean spirited and attack anything you deem false that is what the Religous leaders of Jesus’ day did and by the way you do know that Paul was not talking about what we call communion in 1 Cor but the entire Passover meal the Book of Acts tells us He speedily tried to get to Jersulem for he Passover you have read that right this from the guy you claim said the Feast was no longer needed. As for Christmas we both know where it comes from and the same for Easter, however unlike you slander I dont judge anyone if they want to do if fine I just wont have it done in my home. Tell me what part of Celebrateing Christs birth is painting an Egg and Egyptin custom? You dont seem to have an issue with that just Messianic Jews or is it just Jew in General? Are you a Nazi playing Christian? Yeah that was too far and uncalled for just like most of your posts are. Please pray that God take away your pride

    • Galatians 5:13-25
      13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

      16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

      19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

      22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

      We’re done here, Brandon.

      Blessings as you go,
      -JGIG

  9. Thank you, you prove my point you need to remove this website and pray that God remove the strive in your heart. You only love your Neighbor if they believe how you think they should you attack and have fits of rage against anyone who you deem to be teaching falsely, you cant tell me you dont this entire website is devoted to just that and that is not CHRISTIAN then you hide your face that is the act of a COWARD you hate those who dont follow your form of belief you have broken the very verse you just used

  10. LOL now you are filtering me that is a joke because I called you out on what you are doing that is funny you can talk about these men as if they trash and dogs but someone talking to you about yourself you block them wow what a Hipocrite you are

  11. All I wanted to know is how can you talk about men you dont even know and slander them in the worst possible way? You talk about Messianic Jews as if they do not belong to the same God you do. Jesus was a Jew you should try hard to remember that my friend. If I was harsh it was for the same reason that Jesus was harsh to the hipocrites of His day. You defend Christmas as if we should connect ourselves to a Pagan Holy Day and denounce those who are seeking to remove themselves from the things of the world.In Pauls day there was not even a greek word for Legalism. There is a huge difference in doing something to gain Favor and doing it because you LOVE.I dont buy my wife flowers because I feel I have to I do it becaue Im in love same with obeying Yahweh. So what is the standard for us Christians should every man just do what seems right in his or her own heart? As I said I am not a Mosaic Lawkeeper since there is no Temple no one can be but Since I am the Temple of God I think I should study just what He did allow in His Temple dont you Peter said Be ye Holy for it is written Be ye Holy Just as I am Holy so what is holiness seems to me that since God never changes His mind I should read every verse where He says what is Holy not just from the NT as some. I have seem so much hate from those who claim Jesus’ love for themselves your website reminds me of the King James only people they attack and devour everyone they claim is using the wrong translation. Since you love to use Paul so much you might want to listen to Paul “who are you to judge another mans servant” and we must all stand at the judgment seat of Christ. Also does not Paul say that if meat offends his brother he would never eat meat again? I hope that you can see where I am coming from it is not a place of hatred but LOVE just as Jesus loved the Pharisees so I love you!!

    • Brandon.

      Here’s the thing: You have made all kinds of judgements about who I am and what I’ve written, but you have yet to prove one single accusation against me. You are bearing false witness.

      I have stated to you personally and in a number of places on this blog that if you feel like you should be celebrating Feasts, Days, and Dietary Laws, then that’s what you should be doing. To do otherwise, you would be sinning against your conscience (Romans 14).

      If you tell Christians that they are still under Law, however, then you are out of bounds. That is what this blog is about.

      You can agree or disagree, but your rants discredit no one but yourself.

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

      P.S. Oh yeah . . . I can feel the love . . .

  12. Thanks for this info on HRM in this new year Bill Cloud held a conference in Sweden.And every where I read people are admiring his messages.I think it’s true people are dissatisfied with the church today,and buy into HRM.

    • Hi J.G.,

      Welcome to JGIG =o)!

      Yes, there is much discontent in Christianity today, making believers vulnerable to false teaching. And the HRM is a fascinating movement with persuasive teachers. Unfortunately, unless one checks every Scripture that’s being machine-gunned at them in a typical HRM teaching, they can be deceived.

      I recently watched a video series by a well-known HRM teacher and had to pause the teachings literally every few seconds to check the original language (either Hebrew or Greek, depending on the Scripture he was quoting), to see if what he was saying was true. I was amazed at the flat out lies this teacher was spewing. He systematically chipped away at core concepts of the Christian faith that Scripture supports and was replacing them with Torah-centric definitions. He systematically replaced Jesus Christ and His work with Torah. His technique was rapid-fire, and in a live teaching, one would never have time to check out what he was saying. At the end of each episode, even having checked out his teaching and recognizing the error/deceit, my head was spinning. It helped me to understand how folks can get roped into false teaching and not even realize what’s happening.

      I pray that you and other believers will have a heart for those swayed by the HRM and be willing to stand up and contend for the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

      Every blessing,
      -JGIG

  13. Hi JGIG,

    Just stopping by today to do a bit of reading, as it’s been a little while since I’ve visited.

    Just wanted to say that this is an excellent commentary. One of your best I think, in a collection of excellent and informative articles.

    Also, thank you so much for all of the work that you do in researching this movement. You are a valuable rescource for all of us that have been led to study this movement. You are much appreciated.

    Thanks again, dear sister in Christ!

    In His love,
    Chris

    • Thanks, Chris =o).

      To clarify for the reader, ‘The Perversion of Repentance’ is not my work, but an article from another source.

      Thanks for your kind words and encouragement . . . it means a lot!

      Every Blessing,
      -JGIG

  14. Hi again,

    Oops, my mistake. (blushing) I see now that the article is by Tim Warner. Thanks for the clarification. Still, it was awesome. Thanks for posting it here for us to read. Mr Warner nailed this particular issue succinctly. I’ve seen it played out exactly as he describes.

    Again, JGIG, thanks for all of you work here and elsewere on the Web. Much appreciated! :) In Him,
    Chris

    P.S. I really like the new layout here. Much easier to navigate.

    • No worries, Chris =o).

      Thanks for the feedback! I’m glad you like the new layout. Easy navigation is the goal, so people can find the information they’re looking for, and this layout lends itself well to that end.

      Thanks again!
      -JGIG

  15. I recently came upon the video’s of Brad Scott that teach, the end from the beginning. I was very much caught up in what he was saying and his very charming personality. As he taught…I was brought in and began hanging on every word he said and taking notes. I have studied the scriptures for some thirty~five years and yet I found myself excited about what he was sharing. I had no problem with what he was saying and found it very interesting concerning the teachings of how God shows forth his teachings in nature. I still find it of interest.

    Nevertheless…as I listened much further on and heard him say that Christians are Torahless, and by being Torahless, they were sinner’s. Hummm, well that took me on a very long journey to which I had not been for quite a while….Which was back to searching out what I heard and believed in the beginning. While Brad insists that it is not New…just true. I first thought okay..I can handle that as Christ Jesus is found in the Old Testament. I mean why wouldn’t he be…after all He is God, the Author thereof.

    As I listened more and more…things began to sound strange. It began to sound like a different gospel. I spent many hours reviewing scriptures and carefully trying to verify what Brad was saying. While I still find some of his analogies interesting, I do not agree with him. Christians are not sinners as he proclaims, because they are Torahless. I will use the word Law…..Has no one read what God said he would do? Jeremiah 31: verses 31-34 “Behold the days come saith the Lord, that I will make a New covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.”

    How then do those that hold to the Torah become the accusers of the Gentiles whom God has called by Faith in him? Yet it is said, they are sinners for they are lawless. Christ himself was accused of breaking the Law, and now those that follow after him, bear the same reproach? Indeed they will from those that do not understand the things of the Spirit. For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    I would bid all to study the book of Galatians carefully asking the Holy Spirit to guide them into understanding. Let him who has ears, hear what the Spirit says, for the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy. He taketh away the first that he may be able to establish the second. By which we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. This being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. As we read, And, behold there appeared unto them Moses, and Elias talking with him. Having abolsihed in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself twain one new man, so making peace. In the body of his flesh through his death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight.

    Brad Scott says it is not new, it is just true. I have to disagree, though it is not new in the sense that the prophets of old desired to see his day and in the Volume of the book it is written of him to do the will of the Father, the New Covenant was established by the blood of the Lamb who By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the vail, that is to say his flesh. Now those that are in Christ Jesus are not under the Old Covenant but are heirs of the New Covenant by faith in him. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotton Son of God.

    Have you not read what Jesus said for unto them he said, “Did not Moses give you the law and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?” “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me.” “Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father; there is one that accuseth you, even Moses in whom you trust” As Paul does witness, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowlege of sin, But the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law.

    Jesus said, “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.” Jesus said unto him, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy mind, This si the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

    As written in Galatians, “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” If you search the scriptures you will see that God is Love… No greater Love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends…henceforth I call ye no more servants but I call ye friends. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well. For how can a man say he loves God whom he has not seen, but hates his brother who he has seen? Therefore Love is the fulfilling of the Law.

    Render your heart and not your garments….for all our clothes are as filthy rags. It is forbidden to judge your brother or sister, for what measure you judge, it will be measured unto you again.

    For those that delight in keeping Torah..so be it, nevertheless it is not their right to judge those that have placed their faith in Christ Jesus and believe he is their rest…thus ceasing from their own works. For they are to owe no man anything but to love one another, even as he has loved us and gave himself for us.

    Forgive me if I did not make reference to where all these scriptures are but in believing as he promised…”Seek and ye shall Find.”

    God Bless you all in the Love of our Lord and God who has loved us and gave himself for each one of us.

    • Wow, Christine!

      Thanks for taking the time to write that all out. I hope you’ll forgive me for breaking it down into paragraphs . . . there was just so much there that I didn’t want folks to miss!

      I love how you communicated the sense of Scriptures swirling around in your head as you examined what you were being taught.

      What you have written demonstrates the importance of us taking Scripture into our hearts and minds, as it will return to us when we need it. That’s how it happened for me, too. As I listened to the Law-keeping stance, though on the surface it sounded reasonable, Scriptures I had memorized in the past, even as a child, began to bubble up. I was looking stuff up in my concordance right and left as I heard stuff and then went to the Scriptures to see what God really says about certain things!

      God’s Word does not return void, and He is faithful to show us His Truth if we yield to His Holy Spirit. And it’s the most amazing thing to see how His Gospel stands as I’ve studied things specific to the Hebrew Roots Movement out. It is very cool!

      I guess I would leave you and the reader with this: When presented with new teaching, pray that God would show you not that a particular teaching is true, but IF a teaching is true, and measure everything according to the plumb line of contextual Scripture, being careful, especially in the Law keeping arena, to check the original language (particularly the Greek) and checking every Scripture reference that they give you.

      Thanks again for taking the time to comment.

      Every blessing,
      -JGIG

      • Wow, JGIG and Christine!

        What a lovely way to complete my reading. A friend sent me a link to this site and I have now read the article, “The Perversion of Repentance”
        by Tim Warner and all of the comments.

        Brandon gave me a huge laugh when he accused others of being arrogant, divisive, and judgmental. Thanks, Brandon. If it is true that laughter makes us live long I will live to be a over a hundred.

        What a coincidence. I know a youth minister named Brandon who was directly responsible for some people leaving his church. Sounds like the same guy. I wonder???

        Anyway, JGIG, I really liked the way you responded to Brandon. However, I disagree with something you said in response to JG. I do not believe there is any discontent in the Church (Body of Christ). There is obvious discontent in Christianity, and I submit that it is precisely because of people like Brandon.

        But The Church that Jesus promised to build, and is building, cuts across denominational lines. I think a few members of The Church can be found in every denomination, and there may even be one or two in the Hebrew Roots movement.

        I got here by first listening to all 36 of Brad Scott’s videos on agri-bio-linguistics and how the beginning declares the end. He made some good points in that series about the Hebrew language. But if he wants us to go back under the Law, he has missed the whole point of why God sent Jesus, and what it means to be a Christian.

        You and Christine are right about the way we must approach any new teaching. Above all we must not allow anyone to divert us from the simplicity in and of Christ Jesus.

        Too long already, but let me close by quoting what Christine said. …”Seek and ye shall Find.”

        Amen! Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide us in such a search.

        • Hi Herb,

          Thanks for your kind words. You know a Brandon too, eh? =o)

          I agree with you about discontent in Christianity, specifically, and not the Body of Christ, inclusively, and have edited that comment to reflect such. Thanks for your input.

          You’re comment wasn’t too long . . . the record is 6000 words from an HRMer (no, it doesn’t appear on JGIG, ha!)

          Blessings to you,
          -JGIG

          • How sad that you would find it funny that this man slanders a fellow Christian and accused me of causing people of leaving a Church. Tell me besides this angry hateful website what fruit do you have to show that you are a follower of Messiah Yeshua who said they will know you by your love for each other look friend in the last 2 months I had a son born 13 weeks premature who almost died who pulled through only by the grace of Yahweh and you can talk and degrade me all you want and find it funny that a man who has never even spoken to me does the same I stand by the fact that you are a Hippocrite and lack any type of fruit of the Spirit.

            • Hi Brandon!

              Congratulations on the birth of your son! I’m so glad that though born early he’s doing well.

              Brandon, read what Herb said again . . . you’re making leaps.

              Welcome back. Do take some time to actually read JGIG before embarrassing yourself further.

              Again, mazel tov on the birth of your son!

              Blessings,
              -JGIG

        • Shalom and greetings in the Blessed name of Yeshua the Messiah. Sir you do not know me and nor have we ever spoken the words that I wrote are to a man who attacks men who he does not know nor has ever spoken to in person a man who talks about someone behind their back is a coward as for your statement that is disgusting Sir I have never caused anyone to leave the Church I teach at Sir you need the touch of the Spirit of God.

          • Whew, Brandon! It makes me feel better that you are still here at the web site you dislike so much. I would not want to talk about someone behind their back. You are absolutely right about me needing the touch of the Spirit of God. Actually I need a lot more than a touch because I am a scoundrel who is an enemy of God. So I need the full fledged indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God to keep me even close to doing the will of God for me. Thanks be to God, because of what God did in sending and resurrecting Jesus, I now have exactly what I need.

            Of course, even though I am now in Christ, and the Father and Son abide with me, I still have my same old soul and body so I often find that whatever God is for I am against. Do you ever run into that conflict, Brandon? A preacher once said that if we have not run into satan yet we are on the wrong road.

            Did you miss what I said about reading everything here? Since I was new to this site, I carefully read everything before commenting. I read your many false accusations of JGIG such as the following:

            1. Of making “ignorant rants.”
            2. claiming “that God lets you live anyway you want with no commandments and no acountability.”
            3 “You call on Grace yet walk in definent sin”
            4 “saying that obedience is legalism”
            5 of being, “about the most arogant person I have meet in a long time?
            6 “causing division which God hates”
            7 being “full of pride”
            8 being “full of arogance”
            9 “And you proved my point you are a keyboard coward sir you gossip about men you dont even know that is cowardly.”
            10 “You a Pharisee! A religious hipocrite”
            11 “you sir are guilty of the very thing you accuse these men of.”

            Of course you offered no proof for any of those, and more, accusations because there is no proof. And yet you also said:

            1. “who are you to judge a mans heart?”
            2. “yet I do not judge you or any believer”

            Don’t you see any conflict there, Brandon? I do, but it is really only funny on the surface. Looking a little deeper, it is terribly sad.

            However, I have decided you could not be the Brandon I knew because he was a Baptist and would have called the Messiah, Jesus.

            Herb

  16. Thank You JGIG for putting my post into paragraphs as I am not sure how to do so on this computer, but I will try. I welcome your help, smile.

    As to Paul we read that he was of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of Hebrews: as touching the law, a Pharisee; His Testimony as such we read in Philippians, Chapter 3. Afterward, Paul proclaims the loss of all things that he may win Christ, in verse 9 he says “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

    In Romans Chapter 10:3-11, As pertaining to Israel, Paul says this, “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

    But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is to bring Christ down from above)
    Or , who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring Christ up again from the dead.)

    But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth and in thy heart: that is the word of faith, which we preach.

    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Paul goes on and we see in the same chapter of Romans, verse 19, he speaks of what God said in Deut 32:21 (please read Deut) Paul says, “But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

    But Esaias is very bold and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.”

    As Spoken in Malachi 1:11 “For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offerring, for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of Hosts.”

    Hebrews 7:11-13 “If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood

    And it is yet far more evident; for that after the similitude of Melchisedic there ariseth another priest,
    Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life.
    For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.”

    John 1:5-6 “And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another,

    And this is love, that we walk after his commandments, This is the commandment, That as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.”

    In closing: John 15 verse 12 & 17, “This is my commandment that ye love one another, as I have loved you.”

    “These things I command you, that ye love one another”

  17. Smile…..I needed to come back and drink too as I just read your whole debate with Israel. Thank~you for your Testimony in Christ and your faithful Witness. I surely understand why some of Paul’s followers were troubled by those that tried to bring them under the law.
    This first troubled me when I read that the Noahide laws had been enacted by President Bush. I pulled up the act and saw all the Congressmen that signed it, and I printed it out. Then, I found sites that told Christians that they had to accept the Noahide laws to be considered righteous…and now this? This is the most difficult to deal with. Israel’s argument was very powerful, and I can only thank God for your ability to stand upon what you know to be true. For me, as I mentioned earlier, Brad Scott’s video’s made me have to go back for a refresher course, and that debate, made me come back for a drink too…LOL.. Thank you for this site as someone indeed has to address this as it’s lure is very powerful.

  18. this posting has a serious case of groupthink happening.

    you seem to be stuck upon an elementary (I’m not meaning this offensively) question that many “Hebrew Roots” gentiles eventually come to (often several times) when deciding whether or not Torah should be kept.

    My conclusion: Paul did not make Torah an obligation (he had no authority to do so) as the covenant between G-d and the Israelites was made between them and not including gentiles. The argument that “we are no longer under the law” does not hold water as gentiles were never under the law to begin with. There is no evidence in the bible that concretely shows we (by way of faith in G-d or Yeshua) be obligated to the Sinai covenant. Obligation is not the point for gentiles as it is for Jews. From reading Tanakh and Revelations it’s quite obvious to see why understanding and keeping Torah will be vitally important. It is to be a sign between G-d and his people (some would argue this is enough to make any G-d fearing person obligated). The feasts and laws are a preparation of things to come (just as Yeshua said). It’s also quite evident that the antichrists will use our lack of knowledge pertaining to G-d and his commandments against us, and many will be led astray. To me this demonstrates a testament to G-d’s overarching plan and designs and how they fit together with the prophetic writings to which we were given. If you believe the Torah was simply done away with, I can’t imagine how the books of Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Isaiah make any sense whatsoever to you. All of this is more than enough for me (any many others) to follow Torah rather than arrogantly assume I’ve been saved because I feel comfortable saying it to others.

    I’m not entirely sure why you have such a problem with gentiles keeping Torah anyways, as if it threatens your own salvation.

    If you have an issue with Brad Scott maybe it would be worthwhile to have a dialogue and post it to the website so we can see the fruits. If Brad Scott is indeed incorrect about his scriptural claims then it will show.

  19. Hi benicho,

    First, I commend you for the general tone of your comment. We might get somewhere if everyone would comment like that. Here is my two cents worth.

    You correctly point out that gentiles have never been under Torah. But in my reading from Genesis through Revelation it is not at all obvious to me that God ever expects Gentiles to follow Torah. It looks to me like Torah was only for the Children of Israel, still is only for them, and will continue to be only for them as long as this world exists.

    You say, “(some would argue this is enough to make any G-d fearing person obligated).” Yes, some do argue that, but I don’t see how, when the Torah Covenant is only for the Children of Israel.

    I agree that any God fearing person would earnestly want to obey God alright, but would want to do so under his or her own Covenant.

    For a Christian, our Covenant is through Jesus completely apart from the Law God gave to Moses.
    God the Father, Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all abide within each Christian to guide us to do the will of God. Accepting this new relationship with God is certainly not arrogant because we are ever mindful that we do not deserve it.

    It also has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus already took care of that on the cross some 2000 years ago. For Christians it is now all about living in Christ to do the will of God for us. It is the wonderful stuff after “much more” in the second part of Romans 5:10.

    So I can tell you why Christine, (and me too), have such a problem with gentiles keeping Torah. It is because we know they are depriving themselves of an awesome and beautiful relationship with God through the living Christ Jesus.

    Hope this helps,

    Herb

    • Sorry Herb, I didn’t notice you had replied until just now.

      You mention that reading Genesis through Revelations you don’t see it an obligation that gentiles should keep the Mosaic/Sinai laws. Indeed, the notion of a gentiles didn’t arise until the book of Exodus. It is important to know that the men who lived before the law was given knew much about the “Mosaic” law long before it was revealed in the desert. Noah was given permission to eat all the animals that lived, yet he knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. Would Noah eat an animal that God considered to be “unclean”? Questions like these aren’t easy or conclusive, but it does beg the question (at least for me): were the laws simply a bunch of mandates given to Moses and the Israelites? My conclusion was that God doesn’t simply give laws that he feels are pointless. I think this is something we can all agree on. I also believe we can agree that obeying the laws don’t gain anyone salvation, to this I have no argument (nor do most “Hebrew Roots” proponents). More importantly, the notion of a gentile entering into the faith of the God of Israel was something that was dealt with by the Jewish community and continued to be until Christianity developed it’s own separate identity.

      Paul talks the most about entering into Judaism, although it is often taken out of context by evangelical Christianity. Indeed Paul makes the correct points in arguing that, for example, circumcision is no good without circumcision of the heart. This point is both literal and figurative. What good was it for early Christian gentiles (to whom Paul wrote his letters) to throw themselves into Judaism without understanding (hence circumcision of the heart) what they were doing? It is just like a pagan to hear about miracles and say “where do I sign up” immediately. This was a problem Paul constantly addressed in his letters to the gentiles. Because of this problem Paul often must remind that believers in the Messiah are no longer under the law. He wasn’t telling gentiles that they shouldn’t keep it, but rather that it does no good to try to fit yourself into the order of the circumcised for the sake of being one of them.

      You mention that we are now apart of a new covenant through Christ. Once again, these are very true words, we are most certainly in a new covenant. This covenant is outlined in Ezekiel as well as Isaiah (the promises that God gives to the children of Israel). The new covenant has nothing to do with ceasing to obey aspects of the law, it has to do with no longer being under the law. I’m afraid the term “no longer under the law” is taken out of context and thrown around a great deal in our Christian churches. I won’t go into detail about Jewish identity and their struggle with living under the law and the Messiah, but it is a very interesting dilemma. The Jewish people long for a Messiah so that their transgressions will be atoned, forgiven (keep in mind all the promises their Messiah holds, such as wiping away tears, restoring the land, etc) and they will live in everlasting peace. It is no wonder the Jews consider the law to be enslaving. Put yourself in the shoes of an Orthodox Jew for a moment…You are bound to the law, you haven’t received the Messiah, yet the only thing that keeps you from being like the pagans/nations is the Torah which was given by God. This is why the Jews long for their Messiah.

      Aside from the scriptural evidence that shows there will be gentile Torah observant people, there is nothing wrong with clinging to the law (Isaiah 56:6-7). The law is a rubric for a Godly life and most Christians observe it anyways (even the law of the tattoos and markings which were given to Israel).

      The real problem isn’t Christians who observe the law, it’s Christians who reject Messiah for the law, or who enter into Judaism and lose sight of everything.

      • Thanks, benicho,
        First, let me say the Orthodox Jews I know do not see themselves as struggling under the Law. In fact, they are very happy with it. They feel that each mundane task they do in accordance with Torah draws them closer to God. Maybe it does and God will honor their Covenant as long as they keep the Law.

        Likewise I think every ritual or doctrine practiced in Christianity should be traceable back to Hebrew roots. If we can’t find it there, we should be very suspicious about it.

        But those are roots. Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. I’ve never seen branches grow back to the roots. Branches grow up and out, wherever God sends them.

        Love in Christ,
        Herb

  20. Maybe I can add some insight to a very divisive topic.

    I’ll lay it out first…I’m an evangelical Christian with one foot in the hebraic roots door.

    I guess I come at it from this angle: we learn by doing. I want to understand the relevance of the festivals for example. Therefore I do them.

    And why not? Am I not under grace to do so? Since when did proper Christian living equal being contrary to Torah commands? That seems strange to me after reading Psalm 119 for example.

    So I also want to understand the food laws. So yes, I do those too. No big deal to me, but wow…does it ever seem to get under other peoples skin. I have to ask myself who is the legalist in that situation.

    Here’s my conclusion:

    We are free to pursue and submit to commands that are indeed in the Torah without fear of the “under the law” boogey-man stealing our salvation. And as the Apostle Paul said on many an occasion, we only need fear if we think doing so gives us better standing with God.

    That’s why Paul didn’t want the Galatians to circumcise themselves, but went ahead and did it to Timothy. It’s not what you do..it’s your attitude.

    I therefore have no fellowship problems with those who are Jewish-Christians ( like the originals! ), or even good old American pork eating evangelicals. I just do things differently because I have different convictions. I feel that God’s instructions remain relevant.

    I hope that defends my position, as I certainly do not feel I have perverted my repentance in any way.

    -DP

  21. DP I find no problem going with your convictions it just some people want to make repentance to mean you have to go back to the law of moses and The scriptrures to me are clear , it not mandatory to keep Torah but The law of christ.

    If you had not read The Law of Christ define and defended please do it is a real eye opener on what scripture means to keep the commands of God.

    • Agreed. But in practice many cannot separate the idea that those who practice Torah submission are anything less than legalists who are working for their salvation.

      I argue that the heretical few on the fringes of the Hebraic roots mentality are being used to condemn the many in much the same way liars like Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn are being used to describe legitimate Pentecostals.

      • Hi DP -

        A belated welcome to JGIG =o).

        If those in your circle simply find blessing and learn from the celebrating of Feasts and days, then you are not who/what JGIG is about. JGIG is about those who tell other believers that if you really love God, you will submit to Torah, and/or if you don’t submit to Torah, you are in willful disobedience to God. For those in Christ, it is simply not so.

        And I would submit to you that there are fewer in the HRM that are not heretical than those who are. I used to think it was the flip version of that, but the more I see and read and interact with those who consider themselves Torah observant/pursuant/compliant/submissive, the more evident it becomes to me that heresy permeates the Law ‘keeping’ camp, starting with the ‘Yeshua is the Living Torah’ heresy.

        -JGIG

        • Therein lies where we need clarity I guess, as Jesus certainly is the living Torah just by virtue of logical deduction.

          The idea Logos was taken to mean that the Torah is as eternal as God because the Torah shows the holiness of God. So all that God is, was, and ever will be became flesh. Nothing heretical about that. That is orthodox Christian theology.

          If he cancelled or nullified the Torah, then he simply disqualified himself as Messiah, and the Jews are right in perceiving him as a false prophet. Again, nothing heretical in believing that he didn’t nullify. Especially when he said he didn’t. Fulfill does not mean nullify.

          I think we get hung up on the word “law”. Torah means instruction. There’s nothing heretical about the belief that Jesus simply measured up to his OWN written code that HE gave. The lamb could not be spotless otherwise.

          Again, we can have differing opinions, but I think the word “heresy” might be an inappropriate use of the word that tries to kill a bug with a bazooka. It’s like me calling a Baptist a heretic because they believe in baptism by immersion only. I think we are certainly free enough in Christ to give each other some “wiggle” room. :)

          • Hi DP –

            Logical deduction from what? From the language of John 1? It’s not there. From the many places in the writings to the Body of Christ that state that Jesus Christ is the fullness of God? No.

            To say that Jesus Christ is the Living Torah is to diminish Jesus Christ to a written partial expression and communication from God. That both diminishes Who Jesus Christ is and elevates Torah to a place of deity – both horribly inappropriate deeds, and in my opinion, blasphemous. Blasphemy = heresy. No bazooka there, just discernment.

            I’m not hung up on the word ‘law’. The Law is undeniably a part of Torah; edicts, regulations, instructions, AND penalties along with the history contained therein. It is those who purpose to elevate Torah to some sort of eternal entity who disregard/remove the teeth of the Law.

            I have never said that Jesus cancelled or nullified the Law; He rendered it obsolete for those who believe on Him. As Travis suggested, read, “The Law of Christ – Defined and Defended” for my take on that.

            To say that Jesus merely ‘measured up’ to His own written code is again to diminish Who Jesus Christ really is. He is so much more than the partial reflection of God’s communication to mankind found in Torah. He is God Himself – the complete revelation, the complete manifestation, the very fullness of God in every way. This is not a ‘sprinkle or dunk’ type issue. This is Who do you say the Christ is. And it’s a core, indisputable issue.

            Blessings,
            -JGIG

            • You see, I would say that from the language of John 1, it most certainly is there. The first century understanding of what the”Word” means, as well as the idea of a spotless lamb. The standard of “spotless” is only one thing…complete Torah perfection. What else could it be? I think we may have a situation where we must agree to disagree! :)

              But again, neither of our positions proposes some kind of doctrinal heresy. I merely state that Jesus is perfect by His own pre-stated standard. And so do you no doubt.

              And of course he is more than the written code. No one ever said otherwise.

              Perhaps I’m choosing my words incorrectly. Let me attempt again. The Torah itself is not divine. But the words in it are from divinity. They are more than just holidays and avoiding shellfish! They teach us about ourselves and the nature of God. I call upon Psalm 119 as my witness.

              All I’m saying is that Christ pulled it off 100% because the Torah is spoken by God. Jesus is God. Wham bam. Logical deduction. Thus he is Torah made flesh. ie. the very word of God made flesh. That’s orthodox theology. Nothing diminishing about it.

              I have never met anyone within the HRM ( and sometimes I feel like I’m sitting in the middle of it! ) who has EVER said they felt the Torah was in itself divinity ( although I’m sure there’s a bad apple everywhere ). Only that Christ is the incarnate Word of God. The Torah is the Word of God is it not?

              The law being obsolete is not something I see, because the law never saved. Ever. Faith from Day 1. But the edicts of the law are somewhat timeless. Don’t have sex with your sister, do not murder, steal, etc. Many just feel that you really can’t go wrong in sticking to a God-given instruction manual. But that’s all. I eat kosher, do the festivals, etc…but I am in no way a better Christian that one who does not. Faith alone matters.

              That’s kind of where I’m coming from at least. Obviously we may have different ways of expressing ourselves, but I’m certain both of us come from a proper orthodox perspective.

              Understandably, the HRM sometimes incorporates unfamiliar language and yes, I do agree that this often leads to misunderstandings of which we/they are at fault. But I stand by my position that what I am saying is not heresy or outside orthodox theology. It’s just a different form of expressing the same idea.

              And I appreciate our cool discussion here. A breath of fresh air to be sure! And sorry, for the long drawn out boring response. Too much to be said, so little time…!

              • Hi DP -
                You wrote, “You see, I would say that from the language of John 1, it most certainly is there. The first century understanding of what the”Word” means, as well as the idea of a spotless lamb. The standard of “spotless” is only one thing…complete Torah perfection. What else could it be? I think we may have a situation where we must agree to disagree! :)”

                Yeah, probably =o). But you just know I have to state my case anyway =o). As to the first century ‘understanding’ of what the word, ‘Word’ means, I agree, that has a lot to do with the issue. I won’t presume to speak for you, but it is my guess that you think that those to whom John was writing were looking at things with an Hebraic mindset, while historical evidence shows a fully Hellenized society, in both Jewish and Gentile societies (see Hebrew Roots Movement – The Issue of Hellenization for my position and proofs on this issue). With that in mind, the concept of the logos was a familiar concept to the reader, whether Jew or Gentile. I have seen where those in the HRM will try to change logos into what they say is the Aramaic or Hebrew ‘equivalent’ (when there is no Hebrew equivalent to logos), using the Aramaic word, memra, or the Hebrew, davar, to bring different nuances to the English word, ‘Word’.

                While you may have an appropriate view and keep Yeshua and Torah in their proper places and perspective, so many do not, and their lives are absolutely Torah-centric with Yeshua being incidental to their belief system. Therefore I think it’s important to stick to the Greek that John used and read what’s actually there. I’ll repeat below what I wrote to Brandon about this issue:

                John uses the Greek word logos (the essence of God) in John 1 for ‘word’, not nomos (the Torah/Law of God). And John does use the Greek word nomos in vs. 17 when referring to the Law, so he obviously knew there was a difference in meanings between the words logos and nomos, and purposefully used each word in specific ways in his writings.

                In fact, just a couple of verses apart, this is how the language plays out:

                John 1:14-17
                14 The Word [logos] became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
                15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law [nomos, commonly used specifically regarding Mosaic Covenant Law - evident here in this case as nomos is indicated that it was given through Moses] was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

                So at least two things become clear from this passage:
                1) Law (Torah) was not from the beginning, Jesus Christ was, and
                2) Jesus Christ is not Torah (Law), as they are distinct and separate according to John.

                That’s it in a nutshell. Jesus/Yeshua is not the ‘living Torah’; He is the essence of the Living God incarnate.

                You also wrote, “All I’m saying is that Christ pulled it off 100% because the Torah is spoken by God. Jesus is God. Wham bam. Logical deduction. Thus he is Torah made flesh. ie. the very word of God made flesh. That’s orthodox theology. Nothing diminishing about it.”

                Yep, we’ll have to agree to disagree here. The leap that you make here is not reasonable, especially in the light of the language of John 1, and other places in the NT where Jesus is described at the ‘fullness of God’. Torah is a partial expression of God. Jesus didn’t ‘pull off’ 100% Torah obedience because it was a part of Him . . . He pulled off 100% Torah obedience because sin was not a part of Him!

                As for those who ascribe Torah with deity, have you ever heard the phrasing that Torah is the very force by which creation came to be? And if you go there, you get into the Kabbalistic/mystical applications of Torah, and those indeed assign characteristics of Deity to a written history/law. Not good. If the HRMers you hang with are not teaching that, then good for them. But it is not an obscure teaching. I have found the teaching in what would be considered the ‘mainstream’ of the HRM, as well as on the fringes. You just have to dig a little to find it.

                As for the Law being obsolete, if you don’t bring sacrifices to a Temple or participate in bringing the enforcement portions of the Law to bear, you already believe that it’s obsolete. Where I stand is that while the precepts of God continue on, the edicts and regulations, those things which kept Israel separate from the world were for her protection and so that Messiah would be recognized when He came. Likewise with Feasts and days . . . they foreshadowed and pointed to Jesus Christ. His simple arrival fulfilled those things. His work of the Cross, Resurrection, and Ascension nullified the enforcement and sacrificial portions of the Law. What’s left? Those things which are fulfilled by the Law of Christ – the Law of Love. Things like not having sex with your sister. Or your neighbor’s spouse. Or anyone but your spouse =o). If you read The Law of Christ – Defined and Defended you saw how I arrive there.

                You wrote, “Understandably, the HRM sometimes incorporates unfamiliar language and yes, I do agree that this often leads to misunderstandings of which we/they are at fault. But I stand by my position that what I am saying is not heresy or outside orthodox theology. It’s just a different form of expressing the same idea.”

                While that may be your experience thus far, I’ve seen all too often where the HRM methodology does lead to heresy and is way outside of orthodox theology. By their own admission many proudly trample orthodoxy. If that is not your experience, then I am indeed glad for you.

                I have also appreciated the cool discussion here. I know from experience that these things can get hairy! And as for your ‘long’ response, you haven’t read Israel’s stuff on the “12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law Keepers Crazy” post, have you?!

                Blessings, brother,
                -JGIG

            • Hey, I just wanted to say again sorry for my long letter. I know we’re both going to stick to our guns…and good for the both of us!

              I have a blog of my own to maintain so I won’t take up too much more of your time. Keep up the sensational work, and I’ll visit often!

    • Hi Travis,
      I read the following words of yours yesterday and still need some help in understanding what you mean by them.

      “If you had not read The Law of Christ define and defended please do it is a real eye opener on what scripture means to keep the commands of God.”

      Where can I read The Law of Christ defined and defended?

      Thanks,
      Herb

      • Hi Herb,

        I think Travis meant the post here at JGIG, “The Law of Christ – Defined and Defended”, that talks about what law we are to follow as believers.

        Blessings,
        -JGIG

        • Thanks, JGIG. Excellent work. I get nervous when anyone talks about the Law of Christ we have to follow because the first thing members of Christianity do is make laws or doctrines to follow. That is why we have some 36,000 denominations. If Jesus had healed people the same way twice, we would have a law saying it has to be done that way. Christianity does an awful lot of things that divert us from the simplicity of Christ Jesus.
          I think the most neglected Scripture verse in the Bible must be where Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus what it means to be guided by the Holy Spirit of God. John 3:8 The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Darby)
          That is us, followers of Jesus, He is talking about.
          Does anyone seriously think Jesus sat down at night and planned what He would do the next day, week or year? Why do we do it in our churches?
          Jesus said we are sent as He was sent, so it seems like a good idea to let the Holy Spirit of God lead us to do whatever God wants to do through us just as Jesus did.
          Of course, that is just my unbiased and accurate opinion. ;-)

          Love in Christ,
          Herb

  22. As written in Galations 5:14, “For all of the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
    One may question….where is the first commandment, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy soul and with all of they might.?”
    The two can not be seperated for as the scripture clearly says, “How can you say you love God whom you have not seen, but hate your brother whom you have seen?”

    The Law of Moses came first and was written upon stone tablets. Now the Law is no longer that which is written upon stone,, but that which is written upon our hearts.
    That which is inward is the personal fulfillment of that which was outward.

    The idea that the Christian must submit to that which is outward to fulfill his/her righteousness is seriously flawed by the works of the flesh. Righteousness is of faith and the works that follow are fruits of the Spirit of God, working in the believer.

    Ephesians 2:8&9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works, least any man boast.”

    This is expressed fully in the Sabbath by the fact than no man is to do any work whatsoever. And as Jesus said clearly, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath,” This speaks of the Finished Work of Christ on the Cross, that Salvation is of God. Nothing can be added to it nor taken away, it is his gift to those that believe and trust him to complete in them, the work he began in their hearts.

    Therefore we are told to strive to enter into his Rest, knowing this, that we are complete in him, by faith. Which is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    The Righteousness of God is the right standing we have by the Blood of the Lamb, which has been sprinkled over the door post of our hearts.

    Therfore it is written upon the heart of the believer that he does not steal, nor does he committ adultry, nor bear false witness, and Yes that he Loves God, and loves his neighbor as himself. It is alive with~in us by his Spirit. Why then would we turn to that which is without?

    The scripture clearly states that we have died to the Law, in Romans 6:1&2, and if we be dead, how can we live any longer within?

    Now that we have entered into his death and have been made alive in him….how do we then go backward and not forward by the Spirit of God who has raised us up into heavenly places?

    Clearly as written in Romans 3:20, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowlege of sin.”

    And finally please read carefully Romans chapter 10 but in closing, I do so with verse 4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.”

  23. As usual the pharisetic author of this hate filled web site shows their lack of Bibical understanding John clearly teaches in the very first chapter of his Gospel that Jesus(Yeshua) is the word and in v.s 14 that, that word became flesh now we both know you are looking for any excuse to hate HR but even you know that the Hebrew word Torah does not mean LAW that comes from a greek word but Torah means instruction so what you then are trying to say is Jesus was not Gods living instruction so Jesus was not the living breathing Year of Jubilie and the living breathing sin sacrifice? Paul whom you love to quote even said that Christ was our Passover Lamb which you might recall was commanded in Torah. I by no means agree with everything that the HR teach and believe but this subject is a no brainer you just hate them so much you want to proof every word they say wrong even if its right.

    • Hi Brandon,

      Glad you’re still reading here at JGIG =o).

      John uses the Greek word logos (the essence of God) in John 1 for ‘word’, not nomos (the Torah/Law of God). And John does use the Greek word nomos in vs. 17 when referring to the Law, so he obviously knew there was a difference in meanings between the words logos and nomos, and purposefully used each word in specific ways in his writings.

      In fact, just a couple of verses apart, this is how the language plays out:

      John 1:14-17
      14 The Word [logos] became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
      15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law [nomos, commonly used specifically regarding Mosaic Covenant Law - evident here in this case as nomos is indicated that it was given through Moses] was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

      So at least two things become clear from this passage:
      1) Law (Torah) was not from the beginning, Jesus Christ was, and
      2) Jesus Christ is not Torah (Law), as they are distinct and separate according to John.

      That’s it in a nutshell. Jesus/Yeshua is not the ‘living Torah’; He is the essence of the Living God incarnate.

      Blessings,
      -JGIG

  24. Hello Brandon,
    It is not my intent to argue with you but I would ask you, which is greater, The Lord God or the Torah?

    Can we agree that the Torah is the Five Books of Moses, which is the entirety of Judaism’s founding legal and ethical religious texts?

    If we can agree on that, then we can also agree that the Law was given before the coming of Jesus Christ, right?

    Can we agree that Jesus came to take on the penalty of sin, for those that believe in him? Can we also agree to, as written in Acts 13:39 “And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” ???

    Can we also agree that in the following verse God proclaims that the Work is a Work that he is going to perform?
    Acts 13:40 “Behold ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.”

    And so what was that work that God was going to do, which the Law was unable to do?

    If the Law is unable to Justify men….why do you suggest that Christians use it as their instruction?

    • “If the Law is unable to Justify men….why do you suggest that Christians use it as their instruction?”

      I’m confused, what is so wrong about the laws again?

      • Benicho, I did not say something was wrong with Gods Laws….God forbid, that you have interpreted that scripture in such a way. The scripture that I quoted above, clearly says that no man can be justified by the Law. Acts 13:39

        Now let’s look at what the scripture says in Romans 3:20~21, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets.”

        It would be best to read the whole chapter but for space here, I merely suggest it.

        Therefore the Law is Holy and Pure but we are not. There is another law (sin) that works in our members, that is to say the flesh. Therefore the fault is not in the Law but in us, and if righteousness could have come by the law, there would have been no need for Christ to come.

        Listen to what the scripture says in Galatians 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” Reference~ Deut 27:26
        verse 11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident; for The just shall live by faith”
        verse 12, “And the law is not of faith; but The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
        Please read carefully the rest of the chapter.

        Note in verse 21, “Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid; for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness would have been by the law.”

        As you study this chapter may the Lord God give your heart understanding to the Finished Work of Jesus Christ.

        Notice verse 19 in Galatians chapter 3, “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made: and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator…..

        Notice it was added because of transgressions…it is the job then of the Law to expose sin. For if the Law is Holy as we know it is…and we are not, surely it exposes our sin. For it says, “Thou shalt not committ adultry,” Yet Jesus said, if you look on a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultry already.

        If we have spoken evil of another, we have committed slander, false witness, even murder.

        Are we then guilty of breaking the Law? Yes…for God be true and every man a liar! And if the Word says that if we searve the law, then we must obey at every point or we are guilty of all and worthy of death. Would you desire to be under the Law or under Grace?

        For Christ fulfilled the judgment of the Law for all that believe and put their trust in him. He became a curse for us, as it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.

        When the Books are opened, I hope to be written in the Book of the Lamb and not the Book of the Law. For though the Law is Holy…..I know that in me dwells no good thing, other than Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God.

        I know what I am talking about….as I lived under the Law with all of my might and strength, and when God pulled the rug out from under my feet….the Law like a flaming sword…..drove me to Christ! It was then that I knew ~Joy unspeakable and full of Glory.

        “He openeth his hand and satisfies the desire of every living thing”

        God Bless

        • Nothing you have said there am I in disagreement with, but it’s a stark contrast to what I quoted you as saying, which is this specifically “…why do you suggest that Christians use it as their instruction?”.

          Christians already use the law as instruction. Christians don’t observe dietary law or the feasts, yet we obey most of the laws specifically given to Israel. As I mentioned before we Christians have historically taught that tattooing and marking the body is strictly forbidden, although it was given to Israel. By your logic it is acceptable in God’s eyes to cover your body in tattoos. This isn’t a salvational issue, as breaking the law is covered by grace, it’s an obedience issue. As mentioned before, would God want his Christian children associating themselves with things he deemed to be pagan thousands of years ago? God’s intention for that particular law is the same as it was then—the body is a temple and a vessel for the Holy Spirit. Telling someone “the law is dead” or “the law no longer applies to us” is not the same as saying that “we are dead to the law” or that “righteousness cannot come through the law”. I’m sure you know the differences in rhetoric here and how they are simply taken out of context to demonize the law and people who believe in observing it (hence the reason people call Torah observant gentiles “Judaizers”).

          Observance of the law has been turned into a doctrinal issue by most groups. Christians, Jews and even many “Hebrew Roots” groups have tried to doctrinally justify (or nullify) the laws and why we have to (or should) follow them. They are simply laws of obedience, instructions on how to keep from sinning.

          • Benicho,
            How did we get unto the subject of tatoo’s? Why are you bringing up such silly statements? I don’t have any tatoo’s but even if I did, I don’t believe a tattoo can prevent salvation. Are you now saying God can not save a person that has a tattoo?

            Why do you keep attacking my logic, when all I have shared is scriptures? I have not spoken on my own, but shared the word of the Lord. So it is not my logic you are attacking, but the words that I share. Why do you keep saying…according to your logic…….?

            The Law is Holy…..I attest to that one hundred percent. I hope I have made myself clear. Now I need you to tell me one person other than Jesus Christ who has ever been able to keep the Law? I think you would agree that there are none.

            Now if any of us could be saved by the Law….there would in fact be many, that you could name. Since there are none other than Christ….and God’s Law exposes sin…..thus being the school master to lead us to Christ. Are you saying we should return to the Schoolmaster once we have obtained our faith in Christ?

            Please explain to me what this means…..Gal 5:1
            “Stand FAST therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage”
            Ref Acts 15:10~11 “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

            Gal 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

            Romans 10 3~5 “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteosness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW, for righteousness to everyone that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.”

            benicho, we do not go back to the schoolmaster once it has exposed our sin….for by the Law comes the knowledge of Sin. Paul clearly points out that sin draws strength from the Law.

            So now do Christians take their liberty and walk lawless? God forbid, they walk according to the Spirit of God in Christ whom they have received.

            Rom13:8
            “They are to owe no man anything but to love one another, for he that loveth hath fufilled the law.
            For this, Thou shalt not commit adultrery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour; Therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING of THE LAW.”

            • Well I see the points went right over. I’ve been addressing your statements of:

              “If the Law is unable to Justify men….why do you suggest that Christians use it as their instruction?”

              However you go on to say:

              “The Law is Holy…..I attest to that one hundred percent.”

              So given this train of thought you attest that the law was 100% holy yet you don’t see the point for why Christians should use it as instruction on living. I’m certainly not attacking your logic, rather trying to understand it.

              The reason I bring up tattoos is quite simple. If you don’t believe we have to use the law as instruction (refer to the first quote of yours) then what you are saying is that marking our bodies is acceptable.

              Like I’ve stated before, the law isn’t isn’t for salvation (we’re all under grace—understood). I’m not sure why you’re so adamant on bring the law back into a doctrinal and salvational issue. I’m sure you’ve talked to many observant gentiles who’ve made it a case to turn the observance of law into a doctrinal issue, so I certainly cannot blame you for putting me in the same boat.

              This is the only reason I posted on this blog. I see that the common theme in all these posts is that obeying the law somehow makes someone fall away from grace. Once again, with this logic you’re saying that the Jews (since they don’t believe in Jesus and they follow the law strictly) are somehow outside of grace. We know this not to be true because of the promises to the children of Israel which have yet to be fulfilled. I’m not saying you specifically believe that, but this is the logic or reasoning.

              Anyways, I’m not here to attack your reasoning or your understanding, from what I see you’re a very Godfearing and Messiah loving person. I’m simply trying to input some of my own understanding and reasoning into a counter-Torah observant reaction to the rapidly growing “Hebrew Roots” movement. You have to understand many people who begin studying the law and “Hebrew Roots” get information overload and feel the need to go preach fire and brimstone to people who don’t obey the law. It takes a long time to understand the role, and many people are just too new to it.

              And I agree, love is fulfilling the law.

              • Benicho,
                No it is not my logic concerning the Jews, for what does the scripture say?
                Rom 11:25~26 “For I would not, brethern, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved; as it is written. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”

                So again, you have mis~understood my logic. The scripture refers to the Deliverer turning Israel away from ungodliness. We know that it speaks of Christ.
                But it does not say the Law will be given to turn them away from their ungodliness but Christ, as they already have the Law.

                As for the topic of tatoo’s here is why I think that is a silly or foolish statement or accusation: As written in Ttitus 3:9 “But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”

                So can we please have a sound conversation rather than you assuming my logic?

                If there was anyone that ever rejoiced in the Law of the Lord, it was David. Nevertheless David broke the Law. And what did David plead with the Lord to do, but to write his Law upon his heart, that he might not sin against him.

                Here we have an example of what the Lord said he would do in the later days. Agreed?

                So now now those in Christ whom have receieved him by faith, have the Law written upon their hearts. In Christ, one knows not to steal, they know not to committ adultry…etc. This takes place in the heart of the believer, as the sheep know his voice and by his indwelling Holy Spirit, the Lord corrects and rebukes every child he receives.

                So there is indeed a difference, as it is written, “Render your heart and not your garment.”

                The Law was given because of transgressions, by it comes the knowlege of sin. For as Paul said, without it….he would not have known sin. But then he said when the Law showed his sin, sin revived and began to work all sorts of sin in him. Why did this happen? Because the Law is sin…no but because of the sin of the flesh, which is in rebellion to the Law. Therefore the flesh will profit nothing and in his sight no flesh will be justified.

                But Paul goes on to say the Law slew him and he died as Christ died under the Law, he was then raised in the newness of the Spirit which is in Christ and his rightousness now becomes the righteousness of faith which is in Christ Jesus.

                Counting his own righteousness which was of the Law as nothing.

                Our righteousness is to exceed the Scribes and the Pharisees who were keepers of the Law. And how can we do such a thing if we ourselves are striving under the same Law? We can not no more than those that followed the Law from the time of Moses.

                Under the Law, we are all guilty, as our righteousness is as filthy rags, and there are none righteous, not one, Save Christ.

                So Christ came to fulfil the Law for us for that we were weak in the flesh, that it might be by faith in him and the sacrifice he made for us, in our place.

                Why then would we go back to that which he died to? For Cursed is everyone that does not do all that is written in the book. Should we then leave the grace of God and go back to that which judges us?

                It works it work by exposing sin…when sin is exposed we see that we are guilty and without hope, but it then works as the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, wherein lies our salvation.

                Now as to instruction, we no longer need that which was written upon stone, for it is now written on tablets of fleshly hearts. He dwells in the believer by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Sheep know his voice.

                We that are in Christ have died to the Law and it’s judgment for our lack, and are raised in the newness of the Spirit in Christ.

                Eph2:15, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself twain, one new man, so making peace.”

                For the Law and the Prophets spoke of him and David himself longed to see his day.

                To bring the Christian back under the letter of the Law is to make Christ of no effect.

                GAl 5:18 “But if ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the Law”

                Rom 6″14 “For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”

                John 1:17 “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

                Jesus Christ is our righteousness, in him we are complete. Why then would we return to the Law which first judged us, when we are no longer under judgment but have been saved from the penelty of it?

                For we are not to be removed from the Simplicity that is in Christ by faith in him. For it is not by power nor by might, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. We are the clay and he is the potter, and he has promised to finish the work that he begun in us.

                And what is that work that he is producing in those that have recieved Christ?

                Gal 3:22~23, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsufferring, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against such there is no law.”

                So we are to be found in him not having our own righteousness which is of the law, but the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.

              • The above comment is soooo approved!

                Thank you, Christine!

  25. A I think it is your intent to argue by your tone but none the less I will address your post 1 can you show me where I said that Christians muIst live by the LAW. How can we live by a n instruction that was given for Temple service when there is no Temple and were most likely not a Levit. However does not paul teach we then are the Temple of God and if so maybe I should go and learn just what God had to say about His Temple what was allowed in and what was not. Looking at the Modern church I would say it would benifit from a lesson on Holy Standards. 2 No we can not agree that Torah was before Jesus, Jesus has no begining unless your a Jahovah Witness. 3 the context of Acts 13:41 is not the Law but the Cross ( as Joseph Prince says if you take out what the text is really talking about your only left with a con) and as you know Acts 13:41 is taken from Hab 1:5 and it is about Israels rejection of the Law. 4 Sorry once again no we can not agree about the Torah being the foundation of the Jewish religion that would be the Talmud and Mishna. As for who is greater the Lord God or the Torah, It was God who said I have placed my WORD above my name so ill tell you the same thing I tell the Yahshua only folks if every knee shall bow at the namw how great then is His word in His view.

    • Brandon, you have not taken me at my word, but have accused me, of what I said was not my intent.

      I am sorry I do not know Joseph Prince, nor have I heard of him, but I do know Our Lord and Our God.

      Again I must mention that you have corrupted what I said, as I did not say that the Torah was before Jesus. How have you missed what I said? The Law of Moses was given before Christ came Brandon….I did not say it was before he was.

      I spoke of Gal 4:4~5, “But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”

      Why would you then mention the Jehova Witnesses? Is it me that wants to argue my brother, or is it you? For surely you are not hearing me nor taking heed to the scriptures that I am posting.

      I find no fault with you, neither do I judge you for it is God that judges the hearts of men. Therefore what I say to you, has no personal motive behind it, but rather to give Glory and Honor to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

      I have taken note that you judge many in the churchs of today…..We must be careful with our judgment for we will be judged with the same measure we judge another. The Lord has many members, but one body, and we are commanded to walk in Love one toward another. Letting our words be seasoned with grace, and living peaceably with all men, if it is possible.

      As I have mentioned in other posts, the Law of God is Holy, but we are not. Since we are not…it is impossible for us to fulfil the deeds the Law requires. How can that which is unholy, satisify that which is Holy? It took one that was Holy, it took a Holy God to fulfil the Righeousness of his Holy Law for us. Think of it!!! What Love he has bestowed upon us! No greater love than this, that a man lay down his live for his friends, Henceforth I call ye no more servants, but I call ye friends.

      God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish! We have the promise sealed in us by his Holy Spirit.

      We have no need that any man teach us, for God himself has promised to teach us through his Holy Spirit. His Sheep know his voice…..we follow him wherever he leads us.

      It is not by power, nor by might, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. We are indeed the clay and he is the potter. He is able to save to the utmost all those that have come unto him.

      We either trust God or we do not….and if we trust him then we believe as Abraham believed. Therefore we are of Abrahams seed by promise, because of faith. As it is written, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Therefore our righteousness is of God, by faith in Jesus Christ.

      • Sister am I the one who first wote you or was the other way around first you accuse me of saying Chriastians must live by the Law now you acuse me of calling you a Jahova witness read what I said Christ was not created unless your a jahovah witness I never said you personaly were I don’t know you. As for judging the so called Church here in america sister all I have to do is examine the fruit why do you feel the need to try and correct what I believe? I could quote Paul that a woman is not to teach a man. I figured an ultra grace spokesman like yourself would have heard of the self proclaimed Grace Preacher (Joseph Prince) he is right up your ally. When did I ever say my rightrouness comes from me or my works? So there is no further confusion 1 we are justified inm Christ and Christ alone 2 that justification is of Grace 3 no amount of Law keeping in your futre can make up for your Law breaking in the past 4 only one has ever kept the Law 5. I am an heir accourding to the promise not of the Law I could go on and on but I’m on my droid and I’m not these young kids I don’t type good on it. As I said I have no issue with you my issue is with the one who put this hate filled anti Jewish website up there is a spirit going around the web of men and women creating websites demon backed to slander men like Damon Thompson and Paul Washer and John Piper and like this one Brad Scott I say that a demon spirit is behind all of them

        • Brandon,
          As of yet, I have not read any hate filled language toward the Jewish people.

          Yes you did quote scripture, and I will also as written, “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man but to learn in silence”

          I will also quote Gal 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female” for ye are all one in Christ.”

          So before I begin, we are not come together where I am now under the authority of a Teacher, but rather we are all sharing on a web site in which I have every right to share what the Lord has shown me, Brandon. This is rightly dividing the word. Because you are a Man that believes in the Lord, it does not mean he has appointed you as Teacher. Has he? And if he has, he has not appointed you as my teacher, but a brother in Christ. So that legalistic approach does not work, as pertaining to the present sharring.

          As for the comment toward Jehovah Witness, we have:
          Jehovah Nissi
          Jehovah-Raah
          Jehovah Rapha
          Jehovah Shammah
          Jehovah Tsidkernu
          Jehovah Mekoddishkem
          Jehovah Jireh
          Jehovah Shalom
          Jehovah Sabaoth
          We also have:
          El Shaddai
          El Elyon
          Adonai
          El Olam
          Elohim
          Qanna
          Yahweh
          To each name was a portion of a revelation of God himself. So if I be a Jehovah Witness, I do testify to the sum of all names:

          Isa 9:6, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his NAME shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

          The name above all names, Jesus Christ,

          Eph 1:20 “Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead and set him at his own right hand in heavenly places, Far above all principality and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY NAME that is NAMED, not only in this world but also in that which is to come.”

          Now Brandon, will you please explain to me what you meant when you referred to me as an ultra grace spokesman?

          If you mean that I do testify that I am saved by Grace and not of works, you do well, but if you say that I take the Lord Gods grace in vain, you do error.

          Can you please tell me thus…..What did the Lord mean when he said, “It is Finished.” ???

          • Siter as I felt from the begining it was your intent to argue. I believe I made what I believe clear I believe I made it clear I did not say you were a Jahovah. Witnesxs yet you still wish to argue both so I’m going to be plain with you I don’t care what you believe about me or your Christian walk I am not your judge nor by any means are you mine as for am I a teacher I am a youth. Minister I am also the spiritual couseler for the gang unit at tha juvie hall here but no I am not your teacher but I would remind you it was not me who knocked on your door sister. You felt the need to try and pass on what ever knowledge you have to me not the other way. Look if you want to know what. I teach I’m speaking. March 5th at Mnt Nebo Church at our Y.O.F confrence in Martinsville Va lookim sorry youb at some point thought by your flesh you could be righteous and praise God he brought you out from that but I’m not in that condition I mean let’s be real sister I did 7 yrs for selling crack like I could ever claim I was a Law keeper on any status or level. For some reason you feel the need to argue with me rather then find out who I am and why I believe what. I do which id be willing to bet we agree more then disagree. As for your question I believe that Jesus was teaching a two fold lesson that 1 our work is done and 2 that he ia the Afikoman if yo don’t know what I’m talking about grab you a Passover Seeder.

            • Brandon,
              Thank~you for your testimony, most surely you were not a law keeper……LOL. Yet I do know this that Our Lord says, He that is forgiven much, loves much and he that is forgiven little loves little.

              So I would assume that you would open the door for me by the Love of Christ, to which we have been called. Is not patience and long sufferring the fruit of the Spirit. And if that be so, I pray you suffer me this question?

              You say you are a Teacher and a youth Minister….you are to be commended. If you would be so kind, would you brief me on what you teach?

  26. And Chritin my issue is not with ypu or any other true beliver in Christ. Living what they truely believe is right James said to him who knows to do good but who does it not to him it is sion and Paul said if I believe something to be sin then for me it is sin. My issue is wioth the author of this website they know why ill leave it at that

    • Actually Brandon, I don’t know why. I don’t know you, and the accusations you’ve made against me are without merit.

      What is your ‘issue with the author of this website’?

      -JGIG

      • I see no point in us getting into that subject again as for your comment about my sonhe by God unmerited favor is doing awesome he is now at home and by grace thriving back in December I posted a video of him showing his progress from Nov 16 to dec 27 its on youtube under Braylons Testimony

  27. Hi Brandon,

    I’m so glad your son is doing well. We have seven children and are so blessed by each one. We almost lost #4 a couple of years ago when she was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes and was in intensive care for several days. She’s doing great now, though, and we are thankful.

    I watched your video. Braylon is so tiny! And he’s got a great smile. I pray that he continues to do well and grows strong and healthy.

    Blessings to you and your family,
    -JGIG

    • Thank you for what you said my son is home now and weights 5lbs 15oz. I am willing to apologize foor any wrong remarks I used towards you when I first came across this website I was going through some attacks where people who did not know me just my past were slandering me calling me false name although I have seen an alarming trend of websites springing up where if I disagree with you I just call you a false teacher I have seen them about Pentacastal preachers like Joseph Prince and Damon Thompson (my personal favorit pastor) to Baptist Preacher Paul Washer and even non denominational Pastors John macArthur and John Piper. I can read and speak Hebren. Spent 7yrs doing nothing but reading my Bible and getting my Pasorial Degree studied 1 on 1 with a Jewish Rabbi and a Messianic Rbbi but by no means do I come close to knowing everything and just because I don’t see a verse the same as don’t mean I’m right and you have a demon we just see it from diferent angles. Ill say this then ill close 1 John no one can say Christ is Lord with out the Holy Spirit Paul said if you are filled with the Spirit your Christs

  28. JGIG,
    Thank you so much for this site!! My brother was lured into this movement a couple of years ago. I say “lured” because they only fed him bits of information at a time. A little bit of poison against the church…and a little bit of info on HRM. I can promise you, if they had offered him a complete statement of faith at the first meeting, he would have run for the door!! Again, thank you so much for you time and efforts in helping people find their equalibrium.

    Love Your Sis in Christ,
    Kim

    • Well said, Kim. i join you in thanking JGIG for this site and all of the research that went into it. Lured is the right word for what happened to your brother. I think any true Christian can find plenty of reasons to be disgusted with Christianity, if they honestly and sincerely study the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation and are willing to hear what God has to say to them.

      This means we must be willing to change our beliefs if they don’t match up with what God says to us. This is very difficult to do. It shouldn’t be because we have to constantly change our beliefs in the physical world as we learn more. For several years I believed the only way to get my shoes tied was to have my Momma do it. Later I had to change that belief.

      Why then are we so reluctant to change Spiritual beliefs as we grow Spiritually? This is probably the reason Jesus said the road to Life is narrow and few find it. Unfortunately, most of what goes on in Christianity is careful selection of verses to support what we already believe. So one appealing message from humans may seem more attractive than another such message and the new, baby Christian is lured away from God’s Truth.

      I believe Christine hit upon the root of the problem recently. I sent her this link to the Leap Frog Test , It is part of a test for second graders in China.
      http://www.seenandshared.com/leapfrog.htm

      After trying a few times she was able to do it. Then she said this, “….when I first got it…I stopped thinking and my subconscience did it…..when I tried to do it a second time…I couldn’t as I began thinking too hard.  Made me think of your comment about the simplicity in Christ.  Our minds as we get older tend to complicate things and when we look at it as a child….it is really so basically simple,  don’t you think?”

      Amen! (my comment about the simplicity in Christ is up above somewhere). Not just HRM, but a whole lot of other movements can lead us astray when we forget that Jesus taught very simple lessons to simple people. He also said we must come as a little child.

      Good grief! Completely submit your will to do the will of our Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit will;
      1. teach you what God wants you to know,
      2. lead you where God wants you to go,
      3. empower you to allow God to do what God wants done through you.

      How hard is that to understand?

      Herb

      • I love reading all of this! Great reply, Herb! Bless you!

        • Thanks, Linda. It was almost a year ago, so I had to go back and read it to see what you were talking about. Now I see the last 4 lines say it all. I think almost everyone who becomes a Christian says, “Not my will but Thy will be done, Lord.” But very few really mean it. We love for Jesus to be our Savior, but are reluctant to accept Him as our Lord and Master. I remember how shocked I was the first time our Lord made me do something I didn’t want to do.

          Love in Christ,
          Herb

  29. Brandon! I am so glad your son is doing well and you are at peace. Yes it sounds like you have really been through alot.

  30. Teach them the Torah (instructions) first, which includes the Name of the Creator they have offended; the result will be either belief or unbelief. For those who believe, they will understand they have seriously offended Yahuah by their following other deities, or simply doing their own will. This will lead them to their need for deliverance from their transgressions, which is the shed blood of Yahusha, Yahuah Himself in human form. That atonement is the only solution offered, and this redemption plan is “shadowed” in the 7 festivals of Yisrael. The only bride of Yahusha is Yisrael – gentiles must engraft, and remember the Torah of Mosheh, which Yahusha will write on hearts and minds, which is the renewed Covenant promised at YirmeYahu 31, and repeated at Hebrews chapters 8 & 10. Love is the goal of Torah.
    The Torahless (lawless) will never see Yahusha’s face.
    See His face now, repent (change your perspective), and receive Him, the Living Torah (instruction, Word, Light).
    Please stop arguing, and Love One Another!
    brother Lew White

    • Hi Lew!

      Welcome to JGIG.

      I’d like to address your last statement first: “Please stop arguing, and Love One Another!”

      I re-read through the comments on this post, and by and large, while there is disagreement in the comments, most were respectful and loving in their discourse, so I’m not sure what ‘arguing’ you were referring to.

      As for the rest of your comment, Gentiles do not engraft into Israel, but into Christ (see Hebrew Roots Movement – Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.).

      The Body of Christ is not identified by Torah compliance, but by the fruits that they bear in loving and serving others and bringing the Gospel to others.

      Jesus said:
      John 13:34-35
      34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

      Furthermore, the covenant that we as believers in Christ are under is the NEW Covenant, not a ‘renewed’ Mosaic covenant. See Hebrew Roots Movement – New Covenant or “Renewed” Covenant? for a study regarding the language in both the Hebrew and the Greek used to describe the New Covenant.

    • I do have a question for Lew White . . . more about that in a minute . . .

      For those who do not know, Lew White is the author of Fossilized Customs, a knock-off of Alexander Hislop’s The Two Babylons, which tries to characterize everything in Christian worship as really being the worship of pagan gods. If you’re ever tempted to buy either title, please don’t support those who publish/write this stuff; both titles can be found online for free. Instead, please pick up a copy of The Babylon Connection? by Ralph Woodrow, one who formerly defended thought found in The Two Babylons, but after careful study, found the illogical leaps between myths, legends, cultures, and centuries to be too much, and wrote The Babylon Connection? as a common-sense refutation of books like Hislop, White, and others like CJ Koster and Richard Rives have written.

      Lew White is also the author of a few other titles, as well as a teacher for ‘Torah Institute’ (formerly Torah Zone), which has several teachings online and sells lots of HRM stuff at the website of the same title.

      My question for Lew has to do with the blatant doublemindedness he exhibits by preaching/teaching Torah Law as he does while operating a head shop (a shop where drug paraphernalia, s*x toys/aids, and other culturally deviant wares are sold): How do you reconcile both practices with one another? Even those in the Hebrew Roots/Netzarim community have exhorted you to lose the head shop; yet after years of simultaneously preaching/teaching Torah and selling the items above, you have not.

      For those who think I’m engaging in gossip or bearing false witness against Lew, Lew himself addresses the existence of his head shop (named, Electric Ladyland), trying to cast it in as innocent of a light as he can. Online reviews of his shop, however, reveal that Electric Ladyland is viewed by those who seek out such places to be “a great headshop” and go on to describe the bongs and other items one can acquire there. Much more information (including proof of ownership and online reviews of his head shop) can be found HERE, HERE, and HERE. CAUTION: All of the above links contain offensive material. The last link in particular is enlightening in its depiction of the state of some in the Hebrew Roots/Netzarim stream of faith. Blech.

      All of this landed in my lap not long ago as I was doing some research, and not quite being able to believe it, was finally convinced after seeing the following two videos. The first video is from a customer of Electric Ladyland who has videoed the interior of the store. At about 4:22 minutes into the video, Lew, in his shop is on the phone advising a woman on how to cheat on a drug test with product that he sells in his store. He has the woman on speaker phone and during the conversation is putting the phone up to a cute little beaver figure, and then up to two hideous, life-size masks, the second of which is clearly demonic in nature. The whole video is fascinating and disturbing, and leaves one wondering how this man, a self-professed teacher of the Law Lew White, can educate anyone about the things of God while at the same time engaging in such activity. The video of Electric Ladyland can be viewed HERE

      A video of Lew doing a teaching for Torah Institute can be viewed HERE One can clearly see that it is indeed the same man doing a Torah teaching as was advising the woman on the phone how to cheat on a drug test in the Electric Ladyland video. Again, blech.

      So, Lew, how do you reconcile this blatant double-mindedness?

      -JGIG

      • Dear JGIG; Those who wrote these things about me have embellished with outside examples, scenes from movies, and now I hear that I’m selling “sex-toys”. I know a few of the accusers’ names, but decided to keep them in confidence because until I can sit down with them to discuss the Torah violations they accuse me of, I cannot make their errors known publicly by naming them. They are hiding, and ambushing from darkness, and not allowing viewers to “Like” or “Dislike”, nor make their comments on youtube. Their motives are also not known, but it is really because they are promoting their own version of “Fossilized Customs” under another title. Most all of their research is based on FC. Also, they are treacherously maligning the reputation of ISR, and promoting their new “free translation”, even while they know it to be the ISR’s digital version taken without permission. The store I have 50% ownership in is for sale, but it has always been a music store; yes, “worldly” music, started in 1978. It sells albums, CD, DVD, posters, buttons, stickers, tapestries, hoola-hoops, blacklights, gift items (some of which my partner orders, depicting Egyptian deities), and yes, tobacco pipes and Persian hookahs, shisha, and the “Halloween” masks are there too. I used a few of them to put into a silly video which I have on the store’s web site. I teach Torah first, showing the need for a redeemer, and do so often among the lost. It’s the lost we are all sent to hunt for, and I’m hunting and finding them. Arguing between ourselves over silly nonsense isn’t going to reach the lost. We need to get our minds on how we’re going to reach them, not make up lies about one another’s sinister hearts. Anyone who knows me personally, or comes in to meet me will not see anything like what the accusers are making things look like. We Natsarim have doctrinal issues that embrace the Torah, which many malign us for; but remember that Malachi 4 warns us all to “remember” the Torah of Mosheh, or else Yahuah will smite the Earth with utter destruction. Judge me all you like, but unless you plant seed, you can’t have a harvest. If you don’t call on the Name of Yahuah, but rather “LORD”, you serve another elohim, the identity thief. The Hebrew word “BAAL” translates to the English word, LORD.

        Summing up, always use the Word to correct, rebuke, and train in righteousness. Name the Commandment I’m accused of breaking, but at the same time remember there are other Commandments you prefer to ignore – such as the Name (3rd) and the Sabbath (4th). I mention this in order to restore you to the Covenant, not to judge you. Eph 4:29-32: “Let no corrupt word come out of your mouth, but only such as is good for the use of building up, so as to impart what is pleasant to the hearers.

        And do not grieve the Set-apart Spirit of Elohim, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
        Let all bitterness, and wrath, and displeasure, and uproar, and slander be put away from you, along with all evil.
        And be kind towards one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as Elohim also forgave you in Messiah.” – love always, brother Lew

        • Hi Lew,

          I looked through the video that was posted by one of your customers, and though I saw an Israeli flag on the ceiling in two scenes, the rest of what I saw was, well, blech. That is your store. You own half of it. That is YOU on duty behind the counter advising a woman about how to cheat on a drug test (link HERE, see this event at time stamp 4:22). The video is devastating evidence against your assertions, Lew. What, for instance, is the yellow object shown on the shelf at timestamp 1:05? Again, blech. Not to mention the pipes, bongs, etc.

          Your response does not answer my question about the obvious double-mindedness you are demonstrating by partnering in such a business while teaching/preaching Torah. I’m not arguing with anyone, Lew, just asking you a straightforward question about how you are walking out your faith and the fruits you are demonstrating. Seriously – what defense do you have for being a part of a business that sells such things?! Even if you had to take a financial loss to divest yourself of such an establishment – why would you not, in order to honor God?

          I have no problem with someone going out and ministering to the lost; Jesus was always getting into trouble for hanging around the ‘wrong’ people! Jesus did not, however, set up a head shop and sell drug paraphernalia and s*x toys to do it! Your moral compass is WAY off, my friend! A parallel example would be that it’s one thing to minister to strippers, it’s another thing entirely to run a strip club in order to minister to strippers – see what I’m saying?

          As for what Torah laws you’ve broken, bearing false witness would be the obvious one that comes to mind; in the video linked to above, you’re advising someone on how to deceive in order to pass a drug test. The rest – facilitating drug use, the demonic masks, the s*x toys . . . I’m sure you could find grey areas in Torah law to justify or at least excuse you from guilt. I find Philippians 4:8 to be a very effective filter: 8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

          I won’t question your motives; I’ve personally experienced person after person who has been willing to break Torah Law in order to protect their teaching of Torah. It never will make sense to me how that makes sense to those who do it. Whether or not you can see what you’re doing, I don’t know, it’s not for me to judge you. I can, however, make a judgement call about whether or not to let you teach me and how to advise others about whether they should let you teach them. My opinion, based solely on your teachings, your book, ‘Fossilized Customs’, and the fruits of those I know who follow your stream of thought, has for a long time been that you are not a trustworthy nor a truthful teacher. I reached this conclusion years before I became aware of your ‘day job’.

          You did not answer my question about how you can reconcile teaching Torah while operating a head shop. You tried instead to change the subject and tell believers in Christ how they are damned if they don’t use the correct ‘name’ or keep a certain day. You are preaching a different gospel, Lew, and it is not the Gospel of the Bible.

          I pray that you would rid yourself of the ties to Electric Ladyland. There is no reason you cannot just leave. You may suffer a financial loss, but you might gain some decency. I pray beyond that that God would reveal to you His Truths of who the Bible says one becomes in Christ when they put their faith and trust in Him. I invite you to spend some time here at JGIG and read through the posts and articles.

          Grace, peace, and prayers to you, Lew.
          -JGIG

          • Brother, you need to focus on what is the real truth; I’m obligated on two loans directly associated with the officers of the corporation to repay as things stand, as well as personally; if circumstances change, I break the contract to repay the money owed, and foreclosure would result immediately, devastasting the other partner as well. It is implied somehow that I’m happy about the situation, but I utterly loathe it. I’m not selling sex toys, nor illegal items of any kind. You must name the specific Commandment I’m violating, which “convicts” and stands as evidence as a transgression against either Yahuah or men’s law; conviction must be the first step, followed by repentance. If you know the 10 Commandments, food laws, festival ordinances, wearing of tsitsith, beard destruction (Ex 20, Dt 5, 6, Lev 11, 19, 23, etc.,), name the violation. If you follow doctrines other than the Word (Easter, Christmas, Sun-day), and I obey without adding to or taking away from it, where will we each be in relation to Torah before Yahusha at His return? True, His blood is our redemption, however we cannot continue to rebel against His Covenant and think we’re in a relationship with Him, unless we’ve been taught another Gospel. One of us is living in perversion of Torah, but I am not here to judge, only warn. That is what I do at the store with those of the world. If my feet are dirty and smelly from where I am sent to work, I am grateful to serve Yahusha in the way I do. He didn’t enjoy what He had to do for us, but if I can share in His sufferings with a few stones thrown by others who are also sinners (and don’t seem to realize it as of yet), I rejoice.
            Name the Commandment, don’t forget – that’s where you must begin.
            Others are watching how you will manage it, so please make it clear for them.

            • Wow, Lew. You’re giving a perfect example of how the Pharisees could justify their bad behavior while still being technically Torah observant.

              You’ve made choices to live according to Torah while ignoring New Testament teaching to not be unequally yoked. You have chosen to be yoked to your head shop business for DECADES. That’s a long time to voluntarily stay yoked in a situation that you say you loathe. People do what they want to do, Lew, and there is a payoff for you to remain in that situation or you would not have remained for DECADES. I’m not buying that there has been no way out for you over the last 26 years. You are not stuck; you have chosen your path.

              You wrote, “If my feet are dirty and smelly from where I am sent to work, I am grateful to serve Yahusha in the way I do. He didn’t enjoy what He had to do for us, but if I can share in His sufferings with a few stones thrown by others who are also sinners (and don’t seem to realize it as of yet), I rejoice.”

              The parallel you draw could not be more flawed. You send yourself to work in an establishment of your own creation. Like I said in my earlier comment’s example, it’s one thing to minister to strippers; it’s quite another thing to operate a strip club in order to minister to strippers! You are not going to head shops to minister to folks; you’re RUNNING a head shop! It’s like saying you’re going to minister to alcoholics while serving them alcohol at the bar you operate! Your justification is ridiculous. You say that you are sharing in the sufferings of Jesus by doing what you do . . . yet there is no parallel. Jesus was not a pimp to the prostitutes He ministered to!

              You wrote, “Name the Commandment, don’t forget – that’s where you must begin.
              Others are watching how you will manage it, so please make it clear for them.”

              I did, Lew, you simply chose to ignore it. You are bearing false witness. Mostly you’re lying to yourself as you try to justify your business dealings. You were advising someone on how to cheat (lie) on a drug test. The proof is in the video. You were facilitating deception. I’m sure you will use the letter of the Law to wiggle out of guilt, but the spirit of the Law tells me that you have indeed violated its intent.

            • Lew White wrote, “conviction must be the first step, followed by repentance.”

              That phrase jumped out at me because it sounds like you mean repentance only happens after a person is caught. We see a lot of this with fake apologies from politicians and celebrities. But true repentance must come from within when the Holy Spirit shows us that our chosen path damages our relationship with God. Lacking this, it doesn’t matter whether conviction happens or not,
              A wise preacher once said, “We practice daily what we really believe. All else is just religious talk.”

              Love in Christ,
              Herb

              • Incredibly, I see you as a mission field. You can bet I’m a sinner, and I’m working hard each day to overcome with Yahusha’s guidance in my decisions, according to His Torah (instructions). You may see flaws in me, but that is a two-way street, but the difference in us is that I don’t judge you or cause strife between us over personal attacks and hurtful comments. I’m one million dollars in debt to banks. The stress is a daily pressure, and the attack of the MHS has caused incredible economic damage- yet I give it all over to Yahusha to handle. I’m not into money, it is only a tool, and in short supply at the moment. When you may say I’m in denial, or making “excuses” for my sin, remember you make excuses each time you attempt to explain how you may not rest on the 7th day Sabbath, or put up a “christmas tree”. Idolatry in one’s personal life is a very serious offense, so to accuse another of making excuses is incredibly hypocritical. The adversary has beguiled the whole world into worshipping him, and when you have opened your eyes to see that Yahuah has not changed his Sabbath (because He does not change), you’ll thank me for making you do the necessary research on the topic to prove that I’m wrong about it. Constantine I changed the Sabbath to “Sun” – day in the Roman year 321 with his edict of Constantine (google it). Excuses are only excuses. Call me a liar, but I care nothing about what men think of me. All that I do is in obedience to Yahusha, the Creator of the spirits within men. I care about you, and do not wish to see you perish. I work in a store I loathe, and have published 9 editions of Fossilized Customs stating that I work in the store. The first editions even had the name and address of the store in them. Don’t think this is somehow embarrassing to me, or that the “Shame Hall” is a threat to my big “secret” life working among witches, athiests, drug users, and the lost sheep of Yisrael. I’m blessed to be able to be in such a place, at such a time as this.
                I know His Name, and He will never leave me or forsake me.

              • Uhhh, Lew. Did you even read what I wrote before you responded with your long, wandering, “protest too much” diatribe? I did not accuse you of anything. I have not seen the video mentioned here or read your books. I know nothing about you except from your own words here. From that source alone, I am content to not learn any more about you or your beliefs. All I did was state a couple of sound Spiritual truths that apply to everyone.

                Love in Christ,
                Herb

        • Can I clarify something here? Are you saying that the people who made/took the video (and who are not allowing comments on Youtube) are the same people who are promoting their own version of “Fossilized Customs?” You must have been on pretty good terms with them to have allowed them to videotape your conversation w/the woman trying to cheat her drug test. So, now they are out to get you?

          • BTW…you can indeed leave comments and like/dislike the video.

            • It only had about 169 views. Obviously not many people have seen it, including those who “follow” Lew White and his teachings.

              • I’m pretty sure that most folks who follow Lew White’s teachings and pass his Fossilized Customs book around (a staple in many HRM camps) have NO idea about his ownership/operation of a head shop. I think that particular video was made by just some guy who strolled into Lew’s shop. Too bad for Lew the guy posted it on YouTube!

          • The fellow who videotaped the conversation while I played with the puppetheads is a friend, and I posted it to electricladylandlouisville.com. I’ve never tried to hide who I am, but the accusers at “messianichallofshame.com” have set up their slander/libel/gossip website to malign others. Their youtube videos have no “Like” buttons, and they have also removed any possibility for comments to be made. This is all a very serious transgression, since Yahuah is on record taking serious action against those who cause division (like Qorah). We are to forgive and love our enemies, and if we have a dispute or have been harmed by another believer, we take the appropriate steps and if there is no repentance, ignore them and treat them as an unbeliever. Hatred, slander, gossip, revilings, quarrels, jealousy, dissentions, and the like are not the behaviour seen in Yahusha’s followers (Gal 5). The accusers are attacking me, I’m not attacking them. BTW, I may make some more videos of me playing with puppets talking to people on the phone; what they may be talking about on the other end of the line is irrelevant to me. It just shows the insanity the world is engaged in; the madness of the world isn’t limited to the confines of our store. The lost are in groceries, banks, shopping centers, offices, and in buildings with steeples. I only wish I could do more to reach them than I do.

            • I was able to post AND to like it. I have no idea what you are talking about.

            • I don’t think that having your puppets engage in phone calls to your business is the problem here. You are totally skirting the issue. It’s YOUR conversation with a lady wanting to cheat a drug test that is called into question here. You are dancing circles around this instead of admitting that perhaps you are making some wrong choices. Who are your accusers? Is that NOT YOU in the video? Is that NOT YOU telling a lady how to cheat her drug test? The subject of the conversation is of significant importance in regards to your integrity at the very least.

              • Well, my question goes unanswered. It IS worthy of a response. And, as far as where the video is posted, it is posted on Youtube as well. That would be a good place for Lew to address any maliciousness or conspiracy against him.

            • You are telling a woman how to cheat a drug test. How is that scripturally acceptable?

        • Lew,

          I think being involved in this business (the head shop) sends mixed messages to the unsaved. Even the unsaved know that believers in Christ should be set apart and holy. I don’t see how you can remain set apart (holy) for His purposes while operating a head shop.

      • Greetings! I just copied this off the page you gave a link to in your comment above and I’ve a biblical rebuttal to it. This is one of Lew’s ridiculous and dishonest excuses for staying in his head shop; he states: “Being unequally yoked with an unbeliever in a business is like that of a marriage. The music store (which some have called an occult shop) started 32 years ago, long before I came to faith. As in a marriage, the one partner who believes is not to abandon the unbeliever, because if the unbeliever is willing to remain, the believer is to also accept them (1 Co 7).”

        The Bible’s rebuttal: Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

        2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

        2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

        2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

        Shall I interpret that for you Lew? It’s quite clear, IF you truly have Him living IN you, you cannot be in accord or agreement with IDOLS –like you have for sale in your store! Nor could you WALK with an unbeliever in any form of contractual agreement, not just marriage. Your false justification for staying in partnership with your business partner, comparing it to a marriage is the silliest I’ve ever come across. You’re not married to your buisness partner, and you can’t tell me that God would rather you stay in business selling idols, devilish looking masks, rock albums glorifying Satan, etc. – than leave! Anyone with an ounce of biblical knowledge and spiritual discernment can see right through you Lew. The ugly truth is Lew, you prey upon those who lack knowledge of the Word and of God’s ways. God doesn’t use the things of this fallen world to win the lost, like you claim. That’s just another one of your excuses to continue wallowing in the mud….

        2Pe 2:14 having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; enticing unstedfast souls; having a heart exercised in covetousness; children of cursing;

        2Pe 2:15 forsaking the right way, they went astray, having followed the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the hire of wrong-doing;

        2Pe 2:16 but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man’s voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

        2Pe 2:17 These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved.

        2Pe 2:18 For, uttering great swelling words of vanity, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by lasciviousness, those who are just escaping from them that live in error;

        2Pe 2:19 promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he also brought into bondage.

        2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.

        2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

        2Pe 2:22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.

        You white-washed TOMB! Jesus didn’t mince words when He rebuked the hypocritical lying Pharisees, Saducees and Scribes. He called a white-washed tomb a white-washed tomb, and so do I. Paul wrote: Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

        So, Lew, do YOU HEAR THE LAW? The law accuses you of being a law-breaker for you love money more than God: Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.” Lew, how can you claim to be a “law-keeper” when you love money more than God? If you truly loved God, you wouldn’t step foot in any environment having idols, or anything else that would offend Him. God hates IDOLATRY of any kind, which you should know since you claim to be a god-fearer.

        BTW, the Truth is more than a written code, and mouthing sacred names isn’t going to please God when the heart is corrupt! The torah you claim to uphold, says there’s one who’s greater than any moral code, namely “JESUS CHRIST THE LORD, the NAME which is ABOVE every other name!” and “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes unto the Father, but through Me” Jesus said. Notice that JESUS IS THE TRUTH, the Truth is a SOMEONE, not merely a moral code!

        Lew, I suggest that you repent of your lies, self-worship, and love of mammon, and seek the Lord Jesus while He may be found. If you sincerely repent and ask His forgiveness, He will forgive you, for He is a merciful God. But He will not be mocked – Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life.

        Debra

        • Way to go, Debra! My personal experience supports and confirms your excellent Biblical rebuttal. When I joined Churchianity, I kept on doing things I had done before without thinking much about it. And if I did think about them, it was to justify in my own mind what I was doing. But, when I actually became a Christian, I began to willingly give up those things.

          Love in Christ,
          Herb

          • I appreciate what you are saying, however I have Scripture to say that those who find themselves yoked with an unbeliever should remain as they were when called, so that an unbelieving spouse might be converted (1Co 7:14,15, Tit 1:15). The darkness does not drive away the Light, the Light exists that it may overcome the darkness. Zaccheus at Luke 19 was identified as a “sinner”, and Yahusha’s critics (much like yourselves, so much above all who are sinners) accused Him of associating, no, literally becoming a GUEST in the sinner’s home: v6 “And he hurried and came down and received Him gladly. v7 When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.”
            Rather than grumbling and judging me, you should rejoice that someone who teaches Torah is working among those who are lost. Please try to look at what is happening as a positive thing, because someone in my place needs encouragement and prayer, not condemnation.

            • Lew, are you married to Bob Nord? If so, you are guilty of the sin of homosexuality, if not, then you are misapplying the Scriptures about being unequally yoked. When one in an unsaved marriage comes to Christ, that is no reason to divorce, as the unsaved spouse may come to Jesus by the witness of the other. In a business yoking, however, there is no marriage; no two becoming one in the eyes of God; the relationship is not consummated physically, binding the partners together in a spiritual sense. While the principle of not BECOMING unequally yoked could be applied to the believer entering into a partnership, the believer is not bound to an existing partnership with an unbeliever, especially if the business is something like a head shop!

              I gotta ask: Do you think your partner takes you and your Torah teaching seriously when you live a perpetual conflict of interest by selling the things you do?!

              You are right about Jesus; He did have a habit of hanging out with all the ‘wrong’ people, something for which He got a lot of flak from the Law keepers.

              Here’s the thing though, and I think this is the THIRD time I’m making this point to you and you have not yet responded: Though Jesus ministered to prostitutes, He did not operate a brothel!

              If you were out on the streets ministering to drug addicts and pagans, that would be one thing, but YOU ARE SELLING THESE FOLKS THE THINGS THAT ENABLE THEIR SIN. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT YOU ARE PROFITING FROM ENABLING THEIR SIN!

              You are not merely ‘someone who teaches Torah is working among those who are lost’, YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO TEACHES TORAH WHO IS ALSO ENABLING THE SIN OF THE LOST.

              There really isn’t much more to say than that.

              That you can’t see that says much about your spiritual blindness, and I’m praying that your heart softens and you let God open your eyes.

              Grace and Peace,
              -JGIG

  31. While trying to find the video of Electric Ladyland, I ran across quite a bit of links in regards to this issue. Here is one:

    http://www.wwyd.org/news/news.htm

  32. Well, he has James Trimm on his side.

  33. My husband has Lew White’s books! And let me tell you, they are EVIL. They have turned his mind away from the Truth of Jesus Christ and torn this family apart. Anyone with half a brain can see that the books are nothing but trash. However, there are those that choose to be deceived because it ‘tickles’ their ears, and sadly, my husband is one of many. It just angers me that this trash is in my home.

    • Hi Kathy, I’m Lew White, the writer of Fossilized Customs. I’m very sorry to hear that you consider me an enemy of all that you have put your hopes in, but I call your “JESUS” by the real Name He heard on His ears, Yahusha. It actually means “Yah is our Deliverer”. If you have a specific “evil” item that you find in my book, please endeavor to email me at order@fossilizedcustoms.com to confront me with it. I will not be offended, or attack you for your ideas, but will be kind no matter what. Correction needs to be done with Scripture, and we both agree on most things already. Where there is disagreement, we can work through it in love.

  34. Mr. White?
    You have no idea what we might or might not agree on, and please don’t presume that we agree on anything. I have read both of those books, and the twisting of Scripture that had to be done to be able to “back up” your opinions (and that is all they are) was extensive. I’m not interested in a dialogue with you, when I already have the Truth and a real and living relationship with Jesus Christ. Please know that my husband and anyone he has tried to influence with your ideas WILL see those videos (and the conversations here) -and see the double-standards you operate under. And I’ll pray that you come to the Truth, also.

    • To Hugh & Kathy: In this country it is illegal to use marijuana in 34 states, and legal in 16 states for those with a medical marijuana permit. Marijuana is not a substance I use, however it has been used for thousands of years for medical purposes. When it became a huge money-making item, it was deemed a controlled substance to discourage people from growing their own, which is as easy as growing dandelions. The caller you saw speaking with me on the phone stated she had been exposed to it, and did not wish to have it in her body. Many outlets retail body detox products, such as healthfood stores. We don’t know what state the woman was calling from, but I advised her what she needed. What other people do is their personal business, but if you are accusing me of lying, then it would be by my retailing perfectly legal detoxifying products that I’m helping someone else “cheat” or misrepresent themselves. It’s logical to include me in that I suppose, but a moral dilemma. [Do you work on the Sabbath? Do you even know when it is?] Still, the detox issue involves a matrix of others who are making products, inventing ideas about what they like and don’t like, and imposing intrusive testing on people randomly. People can buy whatever they like, as long as it is legal, and detoxifying oneself is good first step. I regularly tell people they should stay away from the use of marijuana, as well as cigarettes. Our bodies were not designed to inhale smoke.

      I’m very encouraged that you both have a relationship with the Messiah; the next time you speak to Him, ask Him if it’s O.K. to use His real Name, Yahusha ha’Mashiach, and to rest on the real Sabbath, because I’m doing both of those things, and wouldn’t want to be hated by you guys for it. I don’t say the things I do to upset you, they are only intended to enlighten you to a world outside of the Christian religion; Yahusha is the High Priest of Yisrael, and He isn’t a Christian by any stretch of the imagination. Neither is Paul, Peter, John, or Moses, Daniel, or Luke. Yahusha’s followers are Natsarim (Acts 24:5), and keep the Commandments (1 Jn. 3:4, Rev. 12:17). I’ve come to the Truth, and found that I love the Commandments; all of them as written on my heart (that’s the Renewed Covenant, Heb. 8:8-12).

      If I’m wrong, use Scripture to correct me, in love.
      brother Lew

  35. Sorry, I see your name is “Herb”, not Hugh. I’m not going to make any snide comment about that name considering our present discussion, but what if we used the name “JESUS” for our Redeemer’s Name and it wasn’t “JESUS”? JESUS as a spelling of His Name is less than 500 years old. In Hebrew it is spelled YOD-HAY-UAU-SHIN-AYIN.
    Please correct me if I’m wrong.
    brother Lew

    • Lew, your rendering of ‘The Name’ is completely arbitrary. Every single person I’ve contacted or read that actually knows Hebrew tells me that ‘Yeshua’ is the correct transliteration of the Hebrew. One thing I’ve noticed is that the further away those in Law keeping sects get from the simple transliterated ‘Yeshua’, the more fringe their theology gets. Some examples of arbitrary spellings (though those who come up with them have their ‘reasons’ for doing so) follow, from Let Us Reason Ministries:

      Which name is it? Choose one, but you better be absolutely right. Is it -Yeshua, Yesha, Yeshuah, Yehshua, Yehshuah, YESHUAH, YEHSHUAH, YAHUSUHWA, YAHOOSHUA ,YHWHSOSANA, Yeshouah, Y’shua, Y’shuah, Yeshu, Yashua, Yashuah, Yahshua, Yehoshua, Yehooshuah, YHVHShua, YHVHShuah, Yhvhshua, Yhwhshua, Iahoshua, Iahoshuah, Iahushua, or Iahushuah YHWHShua, YHWHShuah, Yhvhshuah, Yhwhshuah, Yahvehshua, Yahwehshua, Yahvehshuah, Yahwehshuah, Yahushuah, Yaohushua, Yaohushuah? Or any other name one might add to the list since this is not current. I ASK you. Y do they all discover different names for the same Elohim of Scripture? And who is right?

      So by what authority did you arrive at your version of ‘the Name’?

      • Brother Herb, I’m so glad you asked. Yahuah’s Name is contained in the Messiah’s Name, Yahusha, and it is the Key of Knowledge. No “authority” on Earth can deny what is true, and if I speak the Truth, it (the Truth) is the only authority that matters. You must receive a love for the Truth, otherwise you will be sent a strong delusion, and believe the lie.

        The four letters of the Name are YOD-HAY-UAU-HAY, google it. There is no letter “W” (as in YHWH) until the 13th century. If you care to call on “LORD”, you should know that this is the definition of the Hebrew word “BAAL”, and the translators admit replacing the Name with this “device”. BAAL (the LORD) is Satan himself, as was MOLOCH, ODIN, and Santa. If you can find any error in what I teach in a video, THE NAME – THE KEY OF KNOWLEDGE, please let me know. The youtube video is at:[link removed]

        • Actually, JGIG is the one asking the question =o).

          While your response is appreciated, it lacks any linguistic proof. What is the source for your assertions? You’ve thrown out all kinds of information there with no established credibility, and I’ve read other sources with lots of credibility that oppose your view.

          Beyond that, are you really accusing Christians who are praying to and praising God that when they use the word, “Lord” they are really lifting high the name of a pagan god? That is silliness. You say, “and the translators admit replacing the Name with this “device”. BAAL (the LORD) is Satan himself, as was MOLOCH, ODIN, and Santa.” I took a look at your video . . . still, no proof, just two guys tossing their opinions about.

          Your approach is that you put arbitrary information out there and then demand that people prove that you’re in error. That’s not how a credible source behaves; a credible source is happy to cite sources for their research, not to challenge random readers to ‘find any error’. The burden of proof is on you, sir. What are your sources for the info you assert?

        • JGIG asked, “So by what authority did you arrive at your version of ‘the Name’??

          Lew White, on January 14, 2012 at 1:44 pm said:
          “Brother Herb, I’m so glad you asked. …”

          Ahhhh, but you are mistaken, Brother Lew. I did not ask and I am not JGIG. Please stop misusing my name. Kind of ironic that someone who is so caught up in preaching about correct names is so careless with names in this discussion. Try to remember that I am the one who made a couple of Spiritual points that you didn’t understand.

          Love in Christ,
          Herb

        • Lew, I’ve been waiting for a number of years to tell you what a despicably dishonest teacher you are, and that’s being nice. Maybe you should look up in a Strong’s how many times King James translators (and I’m no KJV only person) translated “baal” as “Lord.” Zero. IF we can’t call Him “Lord,” please tell us what the proper definition of “Adonai” is. The name of Jesus, in the original, “Yeshuah,” as I’ve been told, means “YAH is our salvation.” That’s a hefty bit of truth right there. So maybe you should leave off the tree of knowledge stuff, yes?

          • The Hebrew word “ADONAI” means my lord, master, owner, or sovereign, and is a pronoun, not a proper noun, even though it may be called a “name” erroneously. At best, it is a title, ranking one over another. We must always remember that the followers of Yahusha will be known for their love for one another, not for their personal attacks.
            We are teachers of Truth, and the facts may seem to be dishonest and despicable, but never the messenger of the facts. The fact that the KJV translators removed the true Name of Yahuah and replaced it with “LORD” seems to be overlooked here, while preserving the name Baal perfectly intact is “dishonest and despicable”.
            You are correct, the translators did not “translate” the word Baal as LORD, they preserved it perfectly intact.
            Your argument with my comments is based on casuistry, shifting the focus away from the glaring truth (look up “casuistry”).
            The KJV translators define the word BAAL as “lord”, if you check your Strong’s concordance, based on the KJV:

            BAAL H1167: BETH-AYIN-LAMED
            בּעל ba‛al bah’-al
            From H1166; a master; hence a husband, or (figuratively) owner (often used with another noun in modifications of this latter sense: – + archer, + babbler, + bird, captain, chief man, + confederate, + have to do, + dreamer, those to whom it is due, + furious, those that are given to it, great, + hairy, he that hath it, have, + horseman, husband, lord, man, + married, master, person, + sworn, they of.

            Please don’t perceive our zeal for the Name as judgmental toward you or anyone wrestling over it. We Natsarim are used to being spoken against throughout time, even by the “circus fathers” like Epiphaeus.
            “And we think it right to hear from you what you think, for indeed, concerning this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere.” Act 28:22 (see also Acts 24:5, where we are identified as Natsarim by Tertullus, Paul’s accusing sophist).

  36. The “Hebrew Roots” being maligned here are the only roots to the true faith that Yahusha asked if He would find on the Earth when He returned. There are no “Greek” roots to the true faith, only Hebrew ones. The Greeks and other cultures are all welcome to engraft into the fig tree, Yisrael, and parttake of the life of the Root, Yahusha, the Redeemer of Yisrael (His bride/wife). Repentance (teshubah, as well as nacham) leads us to our personal conviction of sinfulness, so that we may obey out of love for Yahusha, Whose Spirit indwells those who obey Him (Acts 5:32). The spirit of EliYahu is restoring the Name, and we are to remember the Torah of Yahuah which was given to Mosheh, or else Yahuah will smite the Earth with utter destruction. The awesome Day of Yahuah is almost upon us.

    • The Hebrew Roots are not maligned here; Biblical Christianity is defended here.

      We who put our faith and trust in Christ are grafted into Christ, not into a nation or ethnicity. Your view is noted, however.

      Perhaps you would be so kind as to take a look at my view: Hebrew Roots Movement – Believers are Grafted Into and Become Israel? Um . . . No.

      “Yahuah will smite the Earth with utter destruction” if we don’t keep Mosaic Covenant Law??? Got Scripture for that one?

    • We must remember the Torah given to Moses by the LORD, or He will smite the Earth with utter destruction? Ummm… He WILL smite the Earth with utter destruction, and there’s NOTHING we can do to prevent that. The apocalypse is a done-deal as far as God is concerned. The question is–how will you be found on that day? Beating up fellow Christians? By falsely accusing them of worshiping Satan, and by ignorantly quibbling about words, thinking yourself to be a teacher? Burying your gifts and talents? By smoking marijuana, dulling your rational mind and having fully awake relationships?* Without oil in your lamp? By not following the Holy Spirit as a child listens to the Father, but rather the Law, desperately trying to find your identity in the Hebrew Roots rather than in the source of all life and all identity–the LORD God through His incarnate Spirit and word– Yeshua?

      *I’ve been to many places, and never met a single person who defended marijuana use but that they didn’t partake themselves. While there are medical benefits to be sure, as all things in God’s creation have good use, the THC rewires the brain to disable analytical thought, and even being “buzzed” hinders having sober, real relationships with other people. Human rationality and imagination are the greatest evidence of the existence of the soul, which is wonderful evidence for God’s existence, and relationship is what life is all about. Why should I disable two wonderful things so I can ease the pain of life (instead of dealing with it)?

  37. also to do Dr.brown said realmessiah.com Yahusha could not be a real name duo it has no pronunciation to let such a rendering in Hebrew and he is expert in Hebrew/ semantic languages.

    I thought I would add that.

  38. Jesus fulfilled the law, He also took away all the laws rules and regulations that “STOOD OPPOSED TO US” nailing them to His cross(Colossians 2:14). What are those ordainces and rules that were opposed to us, duh, the Ministry/administration of death written on tablets of stone that came with a fading glory, which is the 10 commandments(2 Corinthians 3:7). Bible says, So my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, (Romans 7:14). Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, For Christ marks the termination of the law so that now anyone who has faith may attain uprightness, Christ has superseeded the law bringing justification to anyone who will believe(Romans 10:4) Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through “FAITH,” (Galatians 3:13,14).

    Actually to come back under the law is to commit spiritual adultery, because your old schoolmaster the law was over you condeming you, controling you with fear, but you are now married to Jesus if you are in Christ, and God hasnt given us a spirit of fear but a Spirit of power, love and a sound mind. Jesus said to the Jews who wanted to kill him “Do not think that I will condemn/accuse you, there is one who condemns/accuses you even “Moses” in whom ye trust (or the laws thereof)John 5:45.”

    Jesus said “I havent come to remove the law, but to fulfill.” and he fulfilled the law perfectly, not by trying to, just by doing whatever he heard his father say. He walked in grace.

    Hebrews 7:19 – For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw near unto God.

    The 10 commandments are a ministry of death and condemnation; who in their right mind would want to come back under that, and I mean all of this in love. Also the law is not based on faith (Galatians 3:12) and also the bible says what ever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23);
    So actually trying to keep the law isn’t based on faith and it is sin. HA Ha Ha, this is joyous good news oh friends and beloved brothers and sisters in Christ. The just shall live by faith!! WOW, what a scandal, the cross is just as offensive as it has ever been, praise Jesus.
    The Apostle Paul said I desire to know nothing but Christ and him crucified, so that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God, (1Corinthians 2:2,5).

    The ministry of death that was written on tablets of stone came with a fading glory, but how much more glorious/or unfading is the ministry of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus that has done away the law of sin and death.

    Galatians 5:1,2,3,4,12 – Stand fast therefore in the liberty where with Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with a yoke of slavery/bondage (law).
    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    4 Christ is become no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law: ye are fallen from grace.

    12 As for those agitators(those who put the law on Christians) I wish they would “castrate” themselves. (some translations say emasculate, cut the whole root off, not just a snip of the tip.
    The Apostle Paul under the guidance of the Holy Spirit said I wish those agitators would cut their “thing” off , This is strong language, but needed to be put in the bible to warn people not to put heavy yokes of bondage on Christians.

    • sorry if i sounded arrogant in any of what I just wrote, im just really passionate about the truth of the good news. I dont claim to know everything, or get everything right all the time.

      • Thanks, Sam.

        Passionate is good =o). Maybe lose the ‘duh’, next time =oX.

        Great post, though! =oD

      • Golly Sam. The word “arrogant” didn’t even pop in my head. You sounded really passionate and accurate about the wonderful truth of the really Good News in Christ Jesus
        Love in Christ,
        Herb

  39. World News Daily posted a topic on their site about Rediscovering Christianity’s Hebrew roots..
    http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/rediscover-christianitys-hebrew-roots/

    After some of the comments posted I finally had to post something there to try and counter all the Law Keeping stuff.
    I posted as bama1 there.

    I think it’s becoming more common knowledge that the owner of that site seems to be leaning more towards HRM stuff. Some of the HRM heroes were mentioned in the article.

  40. Regarding Lew White’s contribution to this thread…
    1. Nobody in the OT or the NT had a problem calling God “Lord.” Abraham called Him “Adonai,” as he also called mortal men “adonai,” in recognition of their authority. That’s why the word “Lord” exists in English–it doesn’t translate into “baal” automatically as you have claimed. That’s like saying “All elephants are pink, Nellie is pink, therefore Nellie is an elephant.” While all instances of “baal” as an adjective/title refer to the authority of the person it modifies, not every title that does so is “baal.”
    3. The Bible is normally to be read, sometimes out loud, and YHWH has no vowels, so it can’t be pronounced, at least not accurately. They did make a distinction in the translating “adonai” as “lord,” and “YHWH” as “LORD.” I’ve heard some HRM guys claim that “adonai” was a rabbinically crafted word to obscure “YHWH” on purpose. Yet a thorough word-study of “adonai” reveals otherwise. It’s not enough to study words, any more than it’s enough in chemistry to study elements. You need to go through the data to determine how it all interacts.
    4. The Teutonic-born word “Church” is not related to the Latin-born word “Circus.” The Greek-born word “Christ” isn’t related to the Hindi (?) born word “Krishna,” as some have claimed. Just because two words sound alike doesn’t mean they’re related. Otherwise “natsarim” would be related to the word “nazi.”
    5. Although many HRM guys identify themselves as Nazarenes, that’s actually what the Jewish authorities called Messianic believers back in the day, not what our ancient brethren called themselves, nor would they have. That’s because “Nazarene” doesn’t acknowledge that Yeshua is the Messiah, while “Messianic” and “Christian” do, referring to “the Anointed One.” Yeshua was a Nazarene according to the flesh, but according to His Spirit, He was the very word and Spirit of God made flesh, the incarnate adonai YHWH Elohim. As for the word “Christian,” it was NOT a derogatory name first used in Antioch, but rather, in the “In Antioch, they were first called Christians.” That word “called” in the Greek is “Chrematizo” which can mean “called by oracle,” meaning it was a prophetic word from God. The distinction is obvious–if you want to follow Yeshua, don’t do so with your flesh according to His flesh, because He was merely a Nazarene, but rather do so with your spirit according to His Spirit, because He was the Messiah.
    6. JGIG, would you consider having a thread devoted to the “Sacred Name” topic? I think it’s surprisingly foundational, as the belief can seriously affect the most basic Christian act–prayer.

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