• What JGIG Is:

    Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

    The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

    Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

    These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

    It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

    Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

    To borrow from a Forrest Gump quote, “Law ‘keepers’ are like a box of chocolates - ya never know what you’re gonna get!” The goal of JGIG is to be a resource to help those affected by the Torah pursuant movements to try and sort out what they’re dealing with. Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

    Be sure to click on the many embedded links within the posts here - there's lots of additional and related information for you to access that way, as well.

    Welcome, and may God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

  • Today’s Top Ten

  • Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email.

  • JGIG on Facebook:

  • Recommended Reading

  • Broken Links – UGH

    Do you find it frustrating when you’re directed to a link that does not exist? Me too! My apologies for any broken links you may find here.

    JGIG occasionally links to to sites that sometimes change hosting sites or remove content, forums that periodically cull threads, sites/posters that appear to ‘scrub’ content from their sites (or YouTube posts, pdf files, etc.) when that content receives negative attention, and others that over time simply cease to exist.

    Please let me know via the ‘Contact JGIG’ drop-down menu item under the ‘About’ tab at the top of this page if you come across a link that is broken so that I can try to repair or remove it. Please include the name of the post/article where you found the broken link as well as the link itself. You may be able to find content specified by doing a search and viewing a relocated or cached page/post/video.

    – JGIG

  • Total Hits

    • 560,785
  • Map

Tzit Tzit For the Believer In Christ?

The wearing of tzit tzit is another area for those in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism/Netzarim streams of thought that becomes an outward expression of their attempts at Torah pursuance.  The wearing of the fringes on the corners of their garments or from their belt loops becomes for them as necessary as observing a seventh-day Sabbath, appointed Feasts, and abiding by dietary laws.  Some proudly display their fringes, while others tuck them in, pulling them out when going to gather with their fellowships.

What place (if any) for tzit tzit in the life of  the believer in Christ?

Why the wearing of tzit tzit was commanded:

Numbers 15:37-41
37 The LORD said to Moses, 38 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel. 39 You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the LORD, that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by chasing after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes. 40 Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God.  41 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the LORD your God.’”

What strikes me as I read the Scripture passage above is that tzit tzit are much like an external ‘conscience’, hanging there as a constant reminder of the commandments of God.  I can picture children fiddling with their tzit tzit, and in the back of their minds all the while understanding that those little fringes were there to remind them of God’s instructions . . .

What purpose for the believer, though, who has the Law written on their heart?

Philippians 4:4-9
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.  7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice.  And the God of peace will be with you.

I find it so interesting that believers are exhorted to rejoice in the Lord, to not be anxious about anything, bring every situation to God in prayer and petition, and that we are promised peace beyond all understanding that guards our hearts and minds in Christ.  These are all things that we, as believers in Christ can do in direct relationship with God with confidence – because we are in Christ.

The instruction that follows to the Body of Christ is not one of an external reminder of Law, but of an internal meditation of those things which are in line with righteousness.

In addition, as those who are New Creations in Christ, we have the seal of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who actively sanctifies us and leads us into righteousness (Galatians 5).  God Himself is our very real and effective internal conscience.

This Scripture also comes to mind:

1 Timothy 1:3-11
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies.  Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.  5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.  6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk.  7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

As believers we are encouraged not to fiddle with fringes (no disrespect intended), but to actively think about “whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy”.

Another example is found in Romans 12:1-2:

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.  2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mindThen you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Those in Christ depart from the Old Covenant way of offering dead sacrifices before God to being living sacrifices themselves.  The physical shadow gives way to the spiritual reality (there’s a paradox for you!).  And this is holy and acceptable to God!

Likewise, we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds as we offer ourselves up to Him, submit to Him, not conforming ourselves to the world, but thinking on things as described in Philippians 4.  Then we will know the will of God!

The practice of wearing tzit tzit is not necessary in the life of one who is in Christ, as our conscience is now governed by His Holy Spirit Who indwells us – not by physical fringes that hang from our clothing.

Romans 13:14
14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

It always strikes me how the physical shadows found in Torah fade away in the greater spiritual realities for those in Christ.  That the commandment to wear tzit tzit and the reason for wearing them is now obsolete is just one more of those things.

May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.


If you’re someone in the HRM or a related Law-keeping sect questioning what you believe, a clear presentation of the Gospel can be found HERE.  For more resources regarding the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movements see the Post Index and the Articles Page.  General study helps, discernment, and apologetics sites can be found HERE.  Good, foundational studies with a special emphasis on Old Covenant/New Covenant Truths can be found HERE.  Be sure to check out the other testimonies on the Testimonies Page, as well.   Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.  May God guide and bless you as you seek His Truth.


Other articles of interest:



132 Responses

  1. Wonderful, JGIG!!! That is an excellent summary of what it means to be a Christian.

  2. I never heard anyone who wore these say, “I was about to sin but then when I saw my tzit tzit, I remembered the commandment and changed my mind.” We did however really enjoy tying them, deciding whether to count the knots for the numerical value of Adonai or YHWH, and watching them twirl around as we danced at festivals. They became a symbol of our supposed Israelite identity and had very little to do with reminding us of our obedience to God. Even if used as intended, this external reminder falls so short of what the indwelling Holy Spirit accomplishes in the life of the believer. In Christ’s Spirit, God has given us Himself, not a tassel.

    • Then you disagree with most that this is a ‘forever’ commandment and required and simply a fun display of your beliefs in dressing up as they did before the death and resurrection of Messiah.

      • Hi Emily,

        8thDay4Life has a testimony here at JGIG and on her blog about how they came out of the HRM. It’s a great read and can be found HERE.

      • man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word spoken of by him. Yahshua said :IF u love me, obey my commandments (which he gave moses at saini). he was pissed when the jews didnt and made a mockery of it.

      • I am a Jew. I have believed that Christ lives in my heart most of my life. I also wear tzitzit sometimes. I don’t wear them as a badge. In fact, when I wear them they are tucked in and not visible. I don’t believe that we are required to wear them. So why? Just as it says, as a reminder. There are times when I struggle, as we all do, with one sin or another and the tzitzit HAVE been a good reminder. Other times when my relation with Christ is not as close as I would like they remind me to take more time throughout the day as I see them to spend a few minutes with Lord. Is that any different than how people wear crosses or have them, or pictures of Jesus, in their homes? The important thing is that we look to our Savior, and not the symbol.

    • Hi 8thDay4Life –

      I was hoping you’d chime in on this one =o).

  3. Very interesting. I see a serious conflict in the HRM belief system for those who claim that it i necessary today for men to wear these.

    If, as they claim, the New Covenant is really the ‘Renewed Covenant’ (which is incorrect but lets stay with their train of thought for a moment)

    And, as they claim, this means the law is written on our hearts now and no longer on paper or stone and that is the extent of the ‘Renewed Covenant’ then why do they have to wear these reminders in their clothing?

    Isn’t that a conflict in thought and purpose?

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding something and they can provide clarity.

    Thank you for the great article JGIG!

    • Hi Emily,

      You make an interesting point about the ‘Renewed’ Covenant concept.

      If the ‘Renewed’ Covenant is indeed the Mosaic Covenant Law written on the heart, why would one have a need for tzit tzit?!

      Hmmmm . . . =o)


      • when a covenant is renewed, things are added not deleted. every one of the 7 covenants (adam, noah, Abraham, moses. david, the renewed, and the final covenant of peace) builds. the torah (the instructions of the king nailed to the cross) teaches us how to eat and dress even. when u add or take away from the word of yah, its never a good thing.

      • So by your statement above are we to understand that you are still operating within the sacrificial system of Mosaic Covnenant Law?


      • There are 3 covenants. A covenant of redemption which happened before the foundation of the world, a covenant of works which was given at Mt. Sinai and a covenant of grace given to Abraham. It is a new covenant, not renewed. All of the ceremonial and civil laws were fulfilled in Christ. The moral law is written on every person’s conscience but only on believer’s hearts. The covenant of redemption is rooted in eternity. The covenant of works had a “condition” attached to it; personal and perfect obedience. Life is promised as a reward for obedience. The covenant of grace is made between God and sinners with all of the action happening on God’s end. Redemption is always through grace by faith. You are missing Christ in you effort to follow Torah.

      • matteo4, I encourage you to back up your assertions about covenants with contextual Scriptures. I’m thrilled that you can see the errors in the HRM, but you need to be able to articulate why you believe what you believe.

        Grace and peace,

    • king david also had the torah written on his heart. he also wore fringes. his was a shadow of things to come. even yahshua wore them. a woman touced it and was healed of her issue of blood. they represent the mans athority. david wouldnt kill saul but cut off one tzit. he said that his life had been delivered into his hands. everyone said to kill him bet he could not kill a messiah (annointed one (kings, priests and prophets) of israel. We r to walk as yahshua walked not as jesus tells us.

      • walking as He walked means listening to God, according to the Spirit, not according to His flesh.

  4. sorry..didn’t subscribe to the comment thread here. lol. Every deception is full of contradictions in logic. But while they will agree with some aspects of the New Covenant, they still argue for the permanence of the old, and that the external symbols or observances are a vehicle to the internal reality, and this extra obedience merits them to draw nearer to God than the less obedient Christian. I like radical obedience out of a heart of love… but Jesus made it clear what that looks like, and so did the first Apostles. I don’t remember seeing this one mentioned. :)

    • the name of the holy one of israel in the o.t. is Yah..ua and in the n.t. its Yahshua (salvation) same person. there is only 1 name under heaven whereby which we obtain salvation (Yahshua). his name was replaced over 6000 times in the o.t and they did the same in the n.t. in revelations the 666 is 3 greek letters. chi-600, xi-60 and stigma-6, in english it says Jesus. a good conterfeit is nearly impossible to tell from the original without close scrutiny. Jesus ( the horse, the pig, son of zeus or god is zeus ) is opposed to the torah therefore according to the script- he is a beast. i am a white european american. a caucasian whos ancesters went through the causasus mountains because of the assyrian captivity from Israel. the united states is the tribe of Ephraim. leading tribe of the lost tribes of the house of israel.

      • This is Replacement Theology. A grave heresy.

      • Indeed, Kathy.

        Sometimes it’s good to let these types of comments be seen to reveal their absurdity.


      • Hermes, “Jesus” is simply an English transliteration of a Latin transliteration of a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name. There’s no “Y” or “SH” in Greek, and usually male names in Greek ended in “S,” or a single vowel. Research will show it doesn’t mean pig, or son of Zeus or “god is Zeus.” KJV translators, and others, were trying to honor the Name by using “LORD,” and using “Lord” to properly translate “Adonay,” as well as the Germanic “God” to properly translate “El.” Iesuos isn’t 666. His Greek name adds up to 777.

        As for your Anglo-Israelism idea, that’s a part of the world that people move out of, not into. The Caucasian people who invaded Northern Europe had alread left the Caucuses by the time of the Assyrian captivity. The Germanic people began around 1800 bc, a millenium prior, while the Celtic people (my ancestors) originated around 800 bc, not later. This is what 1st Timothy 1:4 refers to as “endless” (unprovable) genealogies. Your identity before God isn’t in Israel, but in Christ (the Anointed One, aka the Messiah), if indeed you have accepted as Lord (Adonay, not baal–look this up at blueletterbible.org!) and Savior.

      • Jerel im sad for you, you say his name is Yahshua , but you have just replaced his greek name Iesous with a man-made-up feel proud and superior phony name that has no history no numeric meaning or spirit to answer your call just dead works. You bring up the beast gematria 666 and think you have wisdom, a good counterfeit does need scrutiny.

        The gemitria of Iesous (Jesus) is 888 as you should know with all your wisdom that means the ultimate in new beginings, more than comeplete (7), my cup runneth over all over the place. YHVH in paleo hebrew is HAND BEHOLD NAIL BEHOLD.

        The new is not plan B, it was from the begining to take this message to the world thats why even the book of Mathew written to Hebrews quotes the septuagint 60 percent of the time. Get real. God took man to a Whole higher octave (8) times three in Iesous and sent his message over roman roads in the one language all had acess to.

        The Law of gravity keeps us on the ground but also allows us to fly if we apply it correctly .Your Yahshua is the (6) made by man to beguile just like your Herbert Armstrong fairy tale that was abandoned for Christianity by his church after he died. All the Mormons I know think they are Ephaim too, Brigham taught if you had one drop of negro in yourbloodline you were never to be in their preisthood (to become gods) thats funny cause Joesef’s wife Asenath was a Hamite, therby excluding all them Ephraimites from the priesthood or the greatest in there own kingdom as in your fallacie.

        Yahshua said not one yod or title shall pass from the Torah till all be fullfiled, and the temple and over half the Law visably passed away 38 years later, same amount of time it took for the faithes adult children of Israel to perish in the wilderness. So go ahead and spin your prayer wheel look to those who denied their king and wear your fringes and blastfeam the name Jesus for it is the nature and authority of Iesous who you will stand before not an appellation.

        If your still alive then its not to late to repent (change your Heart) blasfamy of the Holy Spirit is to hang on to faulse teaching to the biter end, even my dog comes running when i call her by a different appellation cause she knows my voice. Ive heard His voice and he spoke to me in my common tounge and healed my disease, may you accept the blessings Jesus has for you.

  5. If nothing changes then are you still stoning those who don’t keep Sabbath?

    The US is the tribe of Ephraim? Where is that written in scripture?

    What was the purpose of Jesus coming and dying and being resurrected?

  6. You mentioned that we don’t need tzitzits because we are to have the law on our hearts….

    Does having the law written upon our hearts mean we don’t do any of it? That seems to be the implication here, and quite simply, that is a logical fallacy and scriptural contradiction.

    The Word of God is not just a floaty thing we think about. He gave us physical commands to physically do because He knew we were too stupid (like sheep) to do it right unless we have those physical reminders. I guess some people are so good they don’t need tzitzits, and to them I say, good work, keep it up! I wish I never ever sinned so i didn’t need to wear tzitzits to remind me of what was right.

    • Hi Mrs. Leo,

      Welcome to JGIG.

      John 10:27-30
      27 “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

      Those who advocate Torah observance tell us that unless we live by Torah, we are engaging in willful sin, implying to believers in Christ who walk in the Law of Christ that the Holy Spirit Who lives in them will somehow lead them into sin if they’re not walking in Torah Law:

      Galatians 5:13-18
      13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

      16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

      God gave us His Holy Spirit, a much more effective reminder of His precepts and statutes than tzit tzit!


      • I’m kind of confused….this seems like a paradox:
        “God gave us His Holy Spirit, a much more effective reminder of His precepts and statutes than tzit tzit!”

        So, we have the Holy Spirit, that is to remind of us His precepts and statutes, so we don’t have to do his precepts and statutes, like wear tzitzits, which is to remind us to keep his precepts and statutes. You lost me.

      • A paradox indeed, Mrs. Leo!

        The precepts and statutes of God are in Torah, independent of Mosaic Covenant Law. All of Psalm 119 is a great example of this concept. I spent a long time going through Psalm 119 the other night and going to the Hebrew definitions of Torah, law, precepts, statutes, judgements, word, command, commandments, testimonies . . .

        Every single definition allows for an OT perspective before Christ and a NT perspective after the work of Christ. Of course for the writer of that Psalm it was Torah, including Mosaic Covenant Law, to which he referred. That was the law that he was bound to. For those in Christ, however, we are not bound to Mosaic Covenant Law with it’s edicts and regulations, but we are still bound to the Law of Christ, the Law of Love. And that law, the Law of Love, fulfills the Law of God – the precepts and statutes, the judgements – all of it!

        It really is the most amazing thing!

        In Christ, the Law is fulfilled – it pointed to Him. He came. It still points to Him, but we don’t memorialize the shadows, we memorialize the work of Christ and walk according to the Law of Christ, the Law of Love! The Holy Spirit is now He Who reminds us of what is right to do, not physical fringes that hang from our garments.


      • There is no Scriptural support for there being two different laws– “The Law of Moses” and “The Law of Christ.” Sorry. God doesn’t have two laws, the law of Christ IS the same law that existed in the OT. YHWH is not a completely different person now than He was in the OT.

        Yeshua kept His Father’s Law perfectly, and He commands us to follow after Him.
        Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

        1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
        1Jn 2:4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
        1Jn 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
        1Jn 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

        How did Jesus walk? Hmm….

      • Read The Law of Christ – Defined and Defended here at JGIG for my position on the Law of Christ as well as on the specific Scriptures to which you refer.


      • You say how did Jesus walk He performed miracles brought the dead to life can we do the same today ,He was born under the law to redeem those who r under the law ,when you say commandments what are the Fathers commandments if u read 1jn3 it will tell you very clearly the Fathers commands is for the present gen
        1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
        23[This is His commandment, that we ] believe[ in ] the[ name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as ] He[ commanded us.]

    • Mrs. Leo,
      Under the New Covenant there are no tszitzits because God Himself reminds us of our sin.
      Read John 14…

      23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

      25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

      God also pours His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit giving us the power to obey. So, good luck with your tzitzit. I’ll trust in Jesus.

  7. Do christians really believe they are going to stand before Yahshua, the One who kept the dietary Laws, wore the Tzitzit, kept the Festivals and said, “If you love me OBEY MY LAWS,” and MOCK and DENY His VERY WORDs for living a RIGHTEOUS life and being the SET APART people we are called to be? Do they really think that He is going to let them off the hook for a direct violation of His Law? The only reason Christians don’t follow YHVH’s Instruction Manual is because they believe they are working for their salvation if they do–which is the biggest lie they have ever believed! As James said, “I will show you my faith BY MY WORKS.” Those of us who have a heart to follow Yahshua and His Law (which is NOT oral Law) will continue to be blessed daily by what the Ruach HaKodesh shows us in our halakah. It’s too bad they don’t desire that for themselves. I wouldn’t exchange my life with Yahshua today, walking in YHVH’s Word, for the life I formerly walked in the legalism of the christian church! Lies, man made laws and fake, cheap grace!

    • Hi Tracy –

      Welcome to JGIG.

      You wrote, “Do they [Christians] really think that He is going to let them off the hook for a direct violation of His Law?”

      Yes, Tracy. What exactly was the Blood of Christ shed for? For those who break the Law.

      When we place our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, Who He is, and what He accomplished at the Cross, we are cleansed.

      As for walking out our faith, James’ letter is not about halakah. James’ letter is about loving others in tangible and relevant ways, which is what Christ commanded us.


      • Being saved by grace does not mean that we continue in sin, JGIG (i.e. break the law).

        Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

        you said “As for walking out our faith, James’ letter is not about halakah. James’ letter is about loving others in tangible and relevant ways, which is what Christ commanded us.”
        What do you think the Torah is, if not loving the Father and others in tangible ways, as Christ commanded us? :P

        Thanks for your post, Tracy, you have the same heartbeat I do. :)

      • You wrote, “What do you think the Torah is, if not loving the Father and others in tangible ways, as Christ commanded us? :P”

        Torah does indeed show us how to honor God and treat others. However, Torah teaches how to do no harm to others, while the Gospel teaches how to go out of one’s way to actively, sacrificially love others: “If a man asks you for your coat, give him your cloak also.” “If a man asks you to walk with him a mile, go with him two.” “Greater love hath no man than he that layeth his life down for his life for his friends.”

        These are not commands found in Torah, but in the Law of Christ, the Law of Love. They go hand-in-hand with the precepts and statutes found in Torah, not negating them in any way. The shadows in Torah, however, which point to Christ, though they still serve that purpose, are no longer binding to those in Christ, any more than the command to build an ark (also found in Torah) is binding to those in Christ.


    • Cheap grace? I think I know what people are trying to say when they say that but do they really understand what they are implying?

      They are implying that the blood of Christ was only worth so much and if we do not add to it then we are taking advantage of Him.

      Jesus’ blood was anything but cheap. His blood paid for ALL of our sins, past, present, future. The individual needs to seriously consider their debt to God and the HUGE gift He is giving.

      Those who are forgiven much love much. The sober decision to die to self, be born again, and live for Him is an eternal decision and not to be entered in lightly. God sees a truly repentant heart and one who has made the decision sincerely and with all their heart and mind and He gives them the gift to become a new creation, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, given the GIFT of salvation to become a child of God.

      There is nothing cheap about it or anything casual about it. The evidence of our true conversion is in our life in how we treat others and honor God with our good deeds towards our enemies and one another. Those who are still in their sins will not have the fruit of the Holy Spirit which is love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness. We become a member of the body of Christ and we will eternally have Him lead our lives, continuously letting go and letting God.

      We don’t see works as that which continues in the instructions to Israel but in the instructions of Jesus Christ. He tells us what He wants of us and that is to love one another and others as He has loved us. There are no laws regarding love. Love is supreme. Love is a much higher level for us to live up to than the laws given to Israel.

  8. I know Ha ruach lives in us. I’m filled with him and he guides me into all truth,but I wear tzit tzit as a out word testimony to those who don’t know Mashiach or those who don’t know about Messianic life. I think we can still and should wear our tzit tzit’s. As to be a witness to people. We are to be the ” Light” of the world.

    • Then you are not wearing tzit tzit as commanded.

      We are to draw people to Christ not by wearing fringes on our garments, but by demonstrating the Fruits of the Spirit and actively, sacrificially loving those around us. Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit is the Light to the world. Him living through us is the true witness!


      • I am in tears reading this blog. Tears of joy for those of you so humbly intent on sharing the love of Jesus without anger or animosity to others and tears of sadness for those who don’t know that every nano second of our lives is a Sabbath because of what our beloved Jesus did for us!

  9. Which is easier? To wear garments, adhere to a list of rules, attend and perform ceremonies, attempting to be holy as best as you can OR

    Loving God and others above self; giving of yourself sacrificially; setting aside the knee jerk reactions of pride and human nature and letting His Spirit lead our hearts as a witness of His love to a dying and lost world?

    Those who are not saved live in darkness. What light will lead them to a saving faith? Rituals and ceremonies or a heart walking in perfect peace, perfect joy, and unconditional love? Jesus did not lead people to the ceremonies but He led them through showing mercy and gentleness and kindness and touching the unclean and the unwanted and showing the value of a man or woman is not their nationality or their deeds but in their desire to know Him and love Him.

    There are two paths. One is wide and is filled with a variety of religions where man is trying to live up to their version of holiness. The other is to humble oneself broken and hopeless in and of oneself and seeking His mercy in redemption. The latter is the one God reaches back to and gives them the precious gift bought by His Son’s blood and He gives them a NEW heart, His. And those who are forgiven much, love much. The path to redemption is narrow because it is only possible when we follow Him alone, by faith alone, by grace alone and bring nothing of ourselves except a humble heart.

    • Have you ever considered, Emily, that we do the physical things that YHWH commands out of love to Him? Which is easier, to SAY we love Him and want to follow Him completely, or to live that out through doing the things He asks of us?

      You said “There are two paths. One is wide and is filled with a variety of religions where man is trying to live up to their version of holiness. The other is to humble oneself broken and hopeless in and of oneself and seeking His mercy in redemption. The latter is the one God reaches back to and gives them the precious gift bought by His Son’s blood and He gives them a NEW heart, His. And those who are forgiven much, love much. The path to redemption is narrow because it is only possible when we follow Him alone, by faith alone, by grace alone and bring nothing of ourselves except a humble heart.”

      Um, may I remind that you GOD invented the Torah? How about living up to God’s version of holiness? You make it sound like men invented God’s commandments and they are therefore bad. I didn’t realize that obeying YHWH to show evidence of our faith was a bad thing. (see James 2).

      • Torah was given to Israel. I am a gentile. Torah is given to law breakers and for law breakers to show them their need for a savior.

        Once redeemed by HIS blood, the Holy Spirit leads us in HIS ways and His leading does not lead us back to that which was a shadow and teacher of His coming.

        Galatians 3:19
        Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

        1 Tim 1
        9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

      • And after we are saved, we are told to walk as Jesus walked. YAY!

      • If you are God in the Flesh, then you can successfully walk out Mosaic Covenant Law. If you are not, then you can follow the example of Christ in living out a life of sacrificial love.

        Are you God?

      • Absolutely not, but I am told to “be holy as I am holy.” Ring a bell?

        1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
        1Pe 1:16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

        Just because I’m never going to be perfect does not mean that I’m going to live like hell. That’s horrible logic. I’m going to try to live like my Savior wants me to, in a way that is glorifying to Him.

        And fyi, Jesus obeyed His Father. We are told to walk like Him. The next logical conclusion is that we are then to obey the Father as well. I’m not sure how this could possibly be any clearer in Scripture.

        Joh 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

      • Yes, we are to follow Him to the cross. We are to die to self and be resurrected a new creation, our spirit that is.

        Jesus said if we want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, we must be born again. Since our lineage is through the spirit of death through the first Adam, Jesus offers us the opportunity to be born again through His spirit and to live a new life free from the law that judged us and born again to the law of love that will reign in heaven.

        When we take up our the cross and follow Him, die to self, and receive the gift of grace paid for through His blood, we are resurrected with His Holy Spirit as a seal and deposit of our place in heaven the fruit of the evidence of His indwelling is in how we let Him lead – gentleness, compassion, love, kindness, joy, peace.

        Jesus told us that the world would know who belong to Him by the fact that we love others more than ourselves. Love is our law.

      • I completely agree, the entire purpose and point of the Torah is love. So yes, love IS my law, as well as the Father’s. :D

      • So, how did Jesus walk? He ONLY did what the Father told Him to do. Why is it so difficult for people to see that Jesus lived under the Law? He was born under the Law in order to redeem those under the Law. The New Covenant was instituted at His death. (Remember a will and testament is only put in place at the death of the one who makes it.)

        If you want to walk as Jesus walked, then you must obey ALL 613 commandments…ALL OF THEM. If you break ONE you’ve broken the ENTIRE Law. And since God requires 100% obedience, you have failed to do what you try so hard to do.

        Jesus didn’t come to show us HOW to obey Moses. He came to impart his very Life and Righteousness to our hearts. HE is the very Law of God. HE is what Moses pointed to. HE is the substance of what the shadow pointed to. Why do you continue living in the darkness of the shadows? Come into the Light of Christ and you will see that what has been done has been done by God.

        Clean/unclean are merely symbols, shadows and types. Jesus is the Word, the True Bread and the True Meat. He is the clean Meat that proceeds from the mouth of God. All other meat is unclean. It is false doctrine and the word of man.

        You claim you want to live like your Savior wants to? Well, then start trusting and resting and depending on Him and stop trusting in your own works of righteousness through the Law. Abide in him and you will bear fruit. Allow the nourishing sap of His Spirit to flow through you to produce love.
        There are two trees in the Garden. One gives us a knowledge of right and wrong. Hmmm, that sounds like the Law. Oh, oh! The fruit of that Tree is death and a curse, because CURSED is everyone who does not CONTINUE to do EVERYTHING written in it.

        The other Tree is the Tree of Life. That sounds an awful lot like the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. It is the Law of Christ and the Royal Law of Love. That one bears the fruit of righteousness and the fruit of the Spirit.
        Wow, and we are told that the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus sets us free from the Law of Sin and Death.

        And what is really ODD is that they are TWO DIFFERENT Trees.

        Hmmm. Maybe the New Covenant ISN’T a RENEWED covenant. Maybe it’s an entirely NEW Covenant, NOT like the old one that God gave when He led His children out of Egypt.

        And a though just came to me. Since I am clothed with the righteousness of Christ and wear His garment of salvation, then I must also have tzitzit. Yes, I do. And everyday He reminds Me that HE is my righteousness, that I have died with Him, that the Old Man was crucified so that I don’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

        HE is my focus and my aim. HE is the author and perfecter of my faith.

        Looking to the Law keeps us looking at ourselves and our performance. It keeps us focused on the tzitzit.

      • Mrs. Leo, thank you for your calm and reasonable responses! To join in this conversation, here are a few more discussion points: Paul kept Shabbat and the feasts (per Acts) and probably wore tzittzits when writing Galatians and Romans above. Yeshua is Torah, John 1, “The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh’khinah (glory, presence), the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.” He said in red letters, “If you love me, keep my Torah.” John 15, “If you keep my Torah, you will abide in my love,” Mark 10:21, the young man that kept Exodus 20, “Yeshua looked at him and loved him!” Further, Yeshua right now in the present moment is our living High Priest in an actual Tabernacle, the one that was on earth was patterned after that heavenly one (Exodus, Hebrews). Torah among many other things is THE instruction manual for understanding the New Testament.

      • Hi Roi, welcome to JGIG.

        I gotta say, Roi, you’re playing fast and loose with the language in the Scriptures.

        Jesus/Yeshua is not the ‘Living Torah’. He is God incarnate, the fullness of the Deity in bodily form, the perfect representation of God in the flesh (see Col. 2:9, Hebrews 1:1-3)

        And about the commandments – Torah folk only see the Law given through Moses by God at Sinai. There are lots of commandments in the Word besides the codified laws given at Sinai. The Greek most commonly used in the NT to indicate Old Covenant Law is ‘nomos’. The Greek that John uses in John 15 is ‘entole’, which has a more relational connotation than a systematic connotation. Let’s compare:

        1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
        a) of any law whatsoever
        1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
        a) by the observance of which is approved of God
        2) a precept or injunction
        3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
        b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
        c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
        d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

        1) an order, command, charge, precept, injunction
        a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office
        2) a commandment
        a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done
        1) a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood
        2) ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition

        And Torah was not intended as an instruction manual for understanding the New Testament; the Law, when used properly, points to Christ. Christ, once we are in Him, does not point back to Law, but indwells us with His Holy Spirit. And the Word says, “If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.” (Gal. 5:18)

  10. I was raised in the baptist church> I am born-again and saved by grace! About 2 yrs ago I stumbled across a “Torah Observant” Christian and ever since I’ve been on a “new” Journey of understanding. I must say, I’ve read both sides of this issue. I believe it is a re-newed covenant. Yahshua brought LOVE to the law. and ATONEMENT to the law. He said it himself in Matt
    I came not to abolish but to fulfill the law. Boy did he ever! Think about it, the modern church PICKS AND CHOOSES by its own judgement what laws it considers to be still in effect. ( Tithing, sabbath) but dietary laws are out of bounds- Yahshua took away the curse of the law but he didn’t take away the blessing of the law. there is a tangible blessing to obedience. And it’s easier to follow his laws than the made-up man made laws we grew up with!! just a thought.

    • Keith,

      There are two trees in the Garden. One gives us a knowledge of right and wrong. Hmmm, that sounds like the Law. Oh, oh! The fruit of that Tree is death and a curse, because CURSED is everyone who does not CONTINUE to do EVERYTHING written in it.

      The other Tree is the Tree of Life. That sounds an awful lot like the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. It is the Law of Christ and the Royal Law of Love. That one bears the fruit of righteousness and the fruit of the Spirit.

      Wow, and we are told that the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus sets us free from the Law of Sin and Death.

      And what is really ODD is that they are TWO DIFFERENT Trees.

      A renewed covenant? Nope. An entirely NEW covenant not like the one God gave when He led His children out out Egypt.

      The Law is self-focused. Man always seeks to justify himself. Pride was the first sin and the root of all sin. That is why the Law can NEVER bring righteousness. Obedience to it is ALWAYS a source of pride.

      Trusting in the Law brings one of two results:

      1) Self-focused discouragement (pride) to those who try, but can never live up to its demands.
      2) Deceitful pride to those who foolishly think they can.

      Remember God is ONLY satisfied with 100% obedience.

      Think about this. Don’t YOU pick and choose which Laws you will obey?

      And by the way, there are NO blessings through the Law. Blessing comes ONLY through the Spirit. “In your (Abraham) Seed all nations will be blessed.”

      In the Law there is only death and condemnation.

  11. Here is a prime example of the very WRONGNESS of trying to follow the OT Law – thinking it makes you more righteous and holy, while it literally hurts the ones you supposedly love:

    Yesterday (Saturday) I went to the store and purchased several heavy bags of soil and a bale of pine straw. My husband stayed home, in his chair watching TV, ‘observing’ his sabbath. My daughter told me that when he heard my car drive up, he got out of his chair and stood near the window (I couldn’t see him), sipping his water as he watched me unload ALL of those very heavy bags of soil and the pine straw. She then told me he raced back to his chair as I pulled the car around to the garage, so it would look like he had never moved.

    Did you catch what I just wrote? He watched me unload the heavy bags by myself, instead of offering to help, because it would be ‘working’ on his sabbath. This is something that happens quite frequently. He also treats our daughter and I like we are stupid and second class citizens – because we are females, and he is so ‘holy’ and ‘set-apart’, and we are just lost (in his eyes). My daughter and I are actually Christians, and believe solely in Jesus Christ and what He did for us – that nothing we can do will ever save us or make us righteous in God’s eyes – only the covering blood of Jesus Christ.

    So, yeah – following the OT Law? Only for those who are misinformed about what Jesus really commanded us to do.

    • Kathy,

      I’m so sorry to hear that! So I guess he’d be opposed to Jesus healing on the Sabbath as well, huh?

      Take care,

    • Then I guess the disciples and apostles and Jesus Himself were misinformed about what Jesus commanded us to do. :/

      That is a shame, though, about your husband. Jesus tells us that it is always lawful to do good on the Sabbath, even if “Pharisees” would consider it breaking the Sabbath. I believe it is possible to still keep the Sabbath but also do somebody some service. Jesus Himself did, and He did not in the slightest break the Sabbath.

      • Mrs. Leo,

        Can you please provide Scriptures where the Body of Christ was ever commanded to observe Mosaic Covenant Law?


      • sure!

        Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
        Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
        Mat 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

        Mat 23:2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
        Mat 23:3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
        (Historically, the ONLY thing that was allowed to be taught, read, or spoken out of “The Moses Seat” was the Torah. Jesus is specifically saying “DO the Torah, but don’t be a hypocrite like the Pharisees.”)

        Rom 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

        Mat 15:1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
        Mat 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
        Mat 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
        Mat 15:4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’
        Mat 15:5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
        Mat 15:6 he is not to ‘honor his father ‘ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
        (This is a warning against holding tradition as higher than the very Word of God)

        Joh 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

        1Jn 5:2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
        1Jn 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

        1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
        1Jn 2:4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
        1Jn 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
        1Jn 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

        1Jn 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

        1Jn 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
        1Jn 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

        Psalm 119

        Many many many others but that’s all I have time for right now.

      • Matthew 28 – What is Jesus’ command to us? To love one another (John 15).
        Matthew 23 – Before the work of the Cross . . . of course Jesus was telling those bound to the Law to obey.
        Romans 3:31 – You have cherry-picked that verse and taken it out of context. One must read all of chapters 3 and 4 for context, and the letter to the Romans as a whole to hear Paul. He is saying that we uphold Torah for its proper purpose in light of the work of Jesus Christ at the Cross and through the Resurrection. Paul echoes this when he says ‘The Law is good when it is used properly . . . ‘ (1 Timothy 1:8)
        Matthew 15 – If someone in your fellowship curses their mother or father will you put them to death as the Law commands and as Jesus reinforced here? Why or why not?
        John 15:10 – You forgot to read the WHOLE chapter. It is there where Jesus clarifies what His command is. Go back and read it again. I have a bunch of it in “The Law of Christ – Defended and Defined” here at JGIG if you don’t feel like looking it up.
        1 John – Again you cherry-pick verses and then redefine what the writer intends when he writes ‘commands’ and ‘commandments’. Not every reference to commandments is to Mosaic Covenant Law. Read “The Law of Christ – Defined and Defended” . It’s all there.
        Psalm 119 – I’ve spent several hours going through Psalm 119 and looking up the definitions for Torah, statues, precepts, judgements, word, etc., etc. and it’s really amazing how the chapter allows for the OT adherent to Mosaic Covenant Law and the NT believer in Christ to abide in God’s Law from their different circumstances. The OT adherent was of course bound by Mosaic Covenant Law, so it’s easy to see how they would apply and understand Psalm 119 through the lens of the Law. If you look at all the definitions in the Hebrew, you can see how God has allowed for the entire chapter to also be viewed through a Gospel lens – by those who are in Christ who are no longer bound to Mosaic Covenant Law. The edicts and regulations, shadows and types are now obsolete for those in Christ – yet the precepts and statutes of God stand!

        So I’m sure you can come up with many more verses that you think ‘prove’ your position, but unless you look at all of them through the lens of the completed work of Jesus Christ, you will have a skewed view.


      • Ahhhhhh, Mrs. Leo. So sad for you. Seeing firsthand the personality changes in my husband (for the worse), I have to completely disagree with you (I read your earlier comments). My husband does NOT show the fruit of a life lived hidden in Jesus Christ. At all. He is selfish, highly defensive, passive-aggressive, and has a superiority complex — egged on by his ‘friend’ that introduced him into the false doctrine of keeping the OT laws and a ‘strict’ sabbath.
        So tell me, how does watching TV and gorging on food honor God on the supposed sabbath? No meeting with others, no reading the Bible, just lying in his chair watching TV and stuffing his face. Oh, and the heavy sighs – just one after the other.
        The whole idea of the HRM, OT law-keeping and sabbath-keeping has become abhorrent to me. I’ve seen, firsthand, the destruction it has caused in my marriage, and the relationship between my husband and our daughter…..she despises him, because he belittles her. Some holy and righteous person he is. NOT!
        If the fruit of keeping the OT law and the sabbath is what I have witnessed, then there is NO WAY that this is ordained by God for believers in Jesus Christ. No way.

      • Like I said before, that’s a shame. And it is not right. But I would encourage against writing off an ENTIRE belief system based one person’s downfalls. I think that’s called generalizing.

      • I stand by what I’ve seen and observed in him, and in his friends. They all behave the same. Rotten fruits.

      • The Law ALWAYS produced pride and self-righteousness. We either come to God through our own righteousness through the works of the Law or we come to God through Christ’s righteousness imputed to is as a free gift, through faith. The “Law is not of faith,” for “the man who does these things will live by them.”

        Kathy is correct. The fruit of the Law is ALWAYS death and a curse. It IS so sad for you.

        Concerning your proof texts. All those you listed were directed toward Israel during the Old Covenant Age. The question was asked, where was the BODY OF CHRIST commanded to observe the Mosaic Law?

        The Law was given to Israel, not the Church. Those whom Jesus was addressing were Jewish, and still under the Old Covenant.

      • The law is more than sabbath one has to observe the new moon and also the sabbatical year every7th year one should refrain from any work too and on sabbath one has to offer sacrifices which includes a levitical priesthood,it’s difficult for a person to turn back because of ego n pride ,u can explain about me I did the same I also avoided food listening to people but I gave up and lead a normal life according to Christ as salvation is a gift from God and not by works of the law.ask one question when Joshua went around Jericho for 7days which day was the sabath as they followed the lunar calendar at present we follow the solar calendar, the sun and moon was created on the 4th day so Wednesday is the 1st day of the week how do you like this explanation.shalom n all the best

  12. JGIG,

    I just found this site today, and I’ve gotta tell ya, I can’t stop reading!! I have been looking for a resource like this for a long time now… I have dear friends caught in the Messianic Jewish snare who have been greatly led astray by it (they now reject the Deity of Christ!!! instead they teach he was just a perfect man, the “Son of God”, but not God incarnate). Thus, this site is a Godsend as I do my research into this topic!

    And yes, the man of the family (of my friends) wears tzit-tzit religiously (no pun intended). Although, strangely enough, half the time he keeps them tucked inside his clothes. Which raises the question: if they are supposed to be a visual reminder of your obedience to the law, why is it okay to put them out of sight by tucking them in? (sigh) For all my research I will never understand, I’m afraid.

    God bless, and thank you sooooooo much for your site!


  13. My parents say they believe Christians should be torah observant, I guess that mean torah obeying… like Jesus (and Paul?) I asked them why they don’t keep all the 600 plus laws anyway, they replied that some they couldn’t do or else the Holy Spirit had not convicted them on all the laws that they could possibly do but don’t. I would have thought they should have had a list of the torah that they could keep and then ask the Holy Spirit which ones of these were not necessary or needn’t bother with. Not to actually have a list of the torah laws that you should keep seems to me that they don’t actually believe that the requirements of the law pertain to them like they say they do, or then they say that’s why Yeshua came because its impossible to keep the law anyways. I have never seen my father wearing a Tzit Tzit. Would you say that the waring of a Tzit Tzita a requirement of Yeshua ‘the living Torah’ for those that believe we should be obeying the torah and living like Jesus did? My folks seem to like to keep the feasts and especially observe the Sabbath day, but I’m confused why they do not make sure they are not breaking other less important torah laws. I would have thought having a list of them would be a first step, not doing so would be neglecting your responsibility as a torah obeying person or trying to plead ignorant of not knowing the requirements of the law, or perhaps you could say you were being unintentionally lawless when it was a fact that you couldn’t be bothered to get a list of the torah law cause you know you cant keep them or only keep the ones that make you feel righteous?

    • You make some great points, Steve. Why aren’t they ‘pursuing’ the fullness of the Law? There are a bunch of lists of the 613 Laws commanded by God in Torah with just a click of the ol’ mouse! Because in reality they are just picking and choosing which Laws to ‘keep’ (which they aren’t keeping anyway because to be kept as commanded they would be offering sacrifices in the Temple!)

      Tzit tzit wearing is a pretty easy command to keep. Tzit tzit are readily available to purchase online and you just tie them onto the corners of your clothes. Some folks just tie them on their belt loops. Others, in accordance with the actual commandment, are sure to wear something with four corners on which to attach their tzit tzit. Some would say that if they are aware of the commandment and do not perform it, they are in willful disobedience of God!

      I wouldn’t dream to judge your parents about this. You have noticed inconsistencies in how they are walking out their faith. Perhaps they just find joy in ‘celebrating’ Feasts and Sabbaths. Maybe they are learning a lot about God and Jesus’ fulfillment of the Law by doing that? If that is the case, then they are not well-versed in what the Law actually requires of them should they choose to bind themselves to it. That is how so many believers in Christ get into Law ‘keeping’. They don’t have an accurate picture of who they are in Christ and what that means, and what it means to be bound to the Law and what that actually entails.

  14. “As believers we are encouraged not to fiddle with fringes (no disrespect intended), but to actively think about “whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy”.

    Is Numbers 15 true? Is it noble? Is it right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent and praiseworthy?

    Logic people, logic.

    • Hey there, Captain Obvious,

      Does Numbers 15 apply to believers in Christ after the work of the Cross?

      If you think so, then you are picking and choosing what laws to keep and which ones you won’t bother with. Most of Numbers 15 has to do with sacrifices. You don’t do those because you say it would be a sin to do so since there is not a Temple or priests to carry out those sacrifices. The Law ‘keepers’ I’ve asked about what they do when they come across a believer who doesn’t keep a seventh-day Sabbath have told me nothing . . . there is no ‘legal authority’ under which the prescribed punishment can occur. Yet when we look at Numbers 15, it’s pretty straightforward:

      “32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.”

      Do you belong to an assembly? How do you handle such situations? The Law is clear, is it not?

      Now let’s go to tzit tzit:
      “37 The LORD said to Moses, 38 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel. 39 You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the LORD, that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by chasing after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes. 40 Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God. 41 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the LORD your God.’”

      Now that one is pretty straightforward as well, yes? So why do you keep the command about tzit tzit but not the command about those who break the Sabbath? Numbers does not speak of a special council that carries out the stoning of the Sabbath-breaker; the whole assembly is commanded to carry out the sentence. So again, how do you handle that in your assembly?

      If you’re going to take on the Law, you must take it ALL on.

      Or, if you are in Christ, you have died to Mosaic Covenant Law and are under the Law of Christ in the New Covenant. In which case love fulfills the Law. Makes a lot more sense in the absence of the Temple and priesthood, not to mention the completed work of Christ and all of the writings to the Body of Christ, none of which tell believers in Christ to keep a seventh-day Sabbath, make sacrifices (even in the era of the Temple there was NO instruction to believers to do so and with so many Gentiles coming into the Body you’d think it would be mentioned if God wanted us to do so), or wear tzit tzit or keep any other of the many, many rules and regulations found in Mosaic Covenant Law.

      We do not wear tzit tzit because we do not need an external prompt to remind us that certain things are sin. The Holy Spirit acts as not only our conscience, but also as the One Who sanctifies us . . . refining us bit by bit as we submit to Him. That is something that tzit tzit could never, nor ever were inteded to do. I prefer communion with God over fiddling with fringes.


  15. “I prefer communion with God over fiddling with fringes.”

    That says it all. Is that supposed to be clever? The disrespect and disdain you have for 3/4 of your Bible is beyond the pale. “Fiddling with fringes”? Really? You think Yahweh commanded people to “fiddle with fringes”? Is that what you got out of Numbers 15?


    By the way, you didn’t answer my question. At all.

    • Hey there Cap’t. –

      Your question was, “Is Numbers 15 true?”

      In and of itself, yes, Numbers 15 is true. It is the Word of God. Does it apply to all people for all time?

      The answer is self-evident, and the answer, of course, is NO.

      No because there are no animal sacrifices being offered anymore – even by Israel! Mosaic Covenant Law has been rendered obsolete by the work of Christ at the Cross – for everyone. It is no longer a functioning religious system. That fact is evident for all the world to see.

      So either the God of Israel is impotent and can’t keep a Temple running for Mosaic Covenant Law to be carried out, or He made a Superior, Better, NEW Covenant with those who would have faith and trust in Him through Jesus Christ.

      Does the Law still have purpose?


      To point mankind to Jesus Christ. HE is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. No one comes to the Father except THROUGH HIM now (John 14:6). The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John (Luke 16:16). The Law is not the way to have relationship with God, faith and trust in Jesus Christ is! Jesus showed up! He ministered, prepared us for what was to come, and promised to reveal more of what was to come through His apostles after His the work of the Cross and His Ascension.

      You act as though Jesus Christ didn’t DO anything but perpetuate what is obviously an obsolete religious system.

      Was that system ordained by God?


      Was it a means to an end?


      What was that end?

      The redemption of all mankind through the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ. The Law was a means to keep Israel separate from the world and protect her so that Messiah would be recognized when He came.

      Did He come?


      Did things change after His work?

      Obviously, Captain.

      Romans 10:4
      4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

      You say I did not answer your question. Numbers 15 is true. Numbers 15, however, is now a description and an historical record of the requirements of the obsolete Mosaic Covenant Law.

      Hebrews 8:6-13
      6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

      7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

      13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

      CO, if you want to live in the Old Covenant, that is certainly your choice. It will NOT bring you into relationship nor will it maintain your relationship with God, however. Only Christ can do that.

      I choose to live in the New Covenant, the Covenant forged in the Blood of Jesus Christ, my Rock and my Redeemer.

      Captain Obvious, you and I have some history now. You commented on this site several months ago, and then you started posting on a couple of forums I’m a member of, getting banned from one for your obvious divisiveness and intent to stir up trouble, and then signing up on another forum with the screen name of ‘Joyfully Growing in Sin’ in an attempt to mock me.

      Feel free to keep commenting here. I’ll be happy for folks to see the fruit that you bear as you strive under the Law.


  16. Excellent JGIG!

  17. Getting banned from that forum had very little to do with my own actions. I logged on one day and was permabanned for absolutely no reason. It was originally supposed to be a month suspension for trying to get you to tell me how we can be freed from freedom (which you never answered). Riddle me this, how did that happen?

    You can sing and dance and try to make me look like the bad guy till Yeshua comes back, but you would be shocked if you saw all the PMs and “atta boy!”‘s I got in real life, and that I continue to get on Survivalist Boards. People are tired of your condescending attitude towards Torah folks (ie “fiddling with fringes) and constant ignoring of tough questions that fly in the face of your doctrine.

    And yes, my username is mocking your username. I don’t want to grow in grace, because that means I’d be sinning more. I think you’re big enough to handle it. ;)

    • Talk about living in denial! You are the only person I’ve seen with ‘banned’ actually written under their screen name at The Seminary on TTOL. And that’s saying something considering that the Moderator seeming to wield the greatest power over there is a Law ‘keeper’ himself! As for the thread you mention, it was purely designed to bait me and I wasn’t bitin’. Especially not in the negatively charged atmosphere you had created. It was an attempt by you to get me booted. Let the reader note that Captain Obvious/Joyfully Growing in Sin did not pose the same question to me at the other forum, where the moderating on the religious page is nearly non-existent.

      I’m sure you do get ‘atta boy’ notes from other Law ‘keepers’. You all take joy in slams and delight in railing against Christianity and those who profess Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, Risen, and Ascended to the Father and what that truly means for those that place their faith and trust in Him. You perceive freedom from sin and the Law to be against God, and fight tooth and nail against the freedom of and for those in Christ. You take offense at alliteration but not when many of your own add to the Gospel by seeking to put believers under Law that does not apply to them.

      And, dear Captain, when one is growing in grace, it does not mean that they are sinning more. That is an idea completely contrary to Scripture.

      2 Peter 3:14-18
      14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

      17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
      To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

      Does Peter point us to the Law here?


      He instructs us to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Scriptures are clear. The way of redemption for mankind is clear as is the way in which the Body of Christ is to walk after putting their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the Scriptures written after the work of the Cross is the Body of Christ instructed to walk in Mosaic Covenant Law. We are to walk in the Law of Christ, the Law of Love. Love God. Love others. And go and tell the world about Him so that they can be free too!

      As for your user name over at SB (Joyfully Growing in Sin), I think it’s a sad testament to your spiritual state rather than an effective dig at me. I’m not insulted, nor do I feel mocked, though I do understand that was your intent. Mostly I shake my head in wonder at how you cannot see how you mock God with that screen name.

      Grace to you, Captain,

      • Captain Obvious –

        You wrote, “I don’t want to grow in grace, because that means I’d be sinning more.”

        I just came across this passage regarding that as well:

        Titus 2:11-14
        11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

        15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

        So you see, Captain, growing in grace does not mean that you would be sinning more – growing in the grace of God is the means by which you learn how to live “soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.”

        That’s what it means to grow in grace.


      • Whatever. You can say whatever you want. I know the truth. The truth is, nobody can give me a single reason why I was banned, or point to a single thing “wrong” that I’ve said. If being sarcastic is a crime on that board, then 90% of the people on there would be banned. Al and Texas Jon have been there much longer than I have, and said far more snarky and sarcastic things, and yet I’m perma banned FOR NO REASON. I smell a rat.

        Also, there were at least two other screen names I saw with “banned” under them. The reason you don’t see it often is because those people don’t post anymore (duh).

        Lol at my thread “being designed to get you booted”. You just didn’t have an answer for me when I blew your ridiculous assertion that “I’m freed from God’s Law” out of the water with Scripture. If that’s what you have to tell yourself at, night, be my guest.

      • Basically, I’m just sick of the double standard at TOL and from the anti-Torah missionaries. I’m tired of you being able to say whatever you want and call Torah folks “cult members” and “satanists” and God knows what else, and then when I respond, I’m the one who gets banned and I’m the one who isn’t a good Christian and blah blah blah. That is beyond messed up.

      • Captain, if anything, the atmosphere at TTOL is very ‘Law friendly’. Law ‘keepers’ freely post false doctrine. When Christians challenge those doctrines, we are accused of ‘attacking’ and being ‘divisive’. It has always amused me how when one is preaching that 2+2=5, that when someone comes along and says, ‘No, 2+2 actually equals 4’ that the one speaking demonstrable truth is ‘attacking’ and ‘divisive’!

        It would be funny if we were just talking about simple addition instead of false doctrines that affect peoples’ lives.

        You wrote, “I’m tired of you being able to say whatever you want and call Torah folks “cult members” and “satanists” and God knows what else, and then when I respond, I’m the one who gets banned and I’m the one who isn’t a good Christian and blah blah blah.”

        Me say whatever I want? Now that’s funny. I have to weigh my words very carefully at TTOL so as to avoid a particular Moderator’s sword. When I post something, Law ‘keeping’ posters will come out with the most ridiculous stuff, like in THIS POST:

        (From Carol at TTOL) …YES there is an agenda going on. How could one NOT be aware of this by all the obsessive threads? Most have recognized there’s psychological issues involved.

        Often it is not a spiritual belief or teaching that is a danger… but an UNbalanced obcessive [sic] need to SWAY others (I must save them because they will be deceived without me; I am so deeper spiritually and they cannot see what they are doing; oh I must reach the new Believers before they hear about this and become entangled and so ON AND ON AND ON.

        Possibly the people with obcessions [sic] have psychological issues that stem back from a child. Did a parent beat the child over the head with the word, thus causing the IMbalance?

        My YAH is the Most High…last I read according to His Holy Word, HE is able to set our feet on the right path…Not man’s intervention. The only place I see this thread going is into LOCK by Invar…and prob. very soon.

        And sure enough, that particular Mod came and locked the thread. So the bias is definitely in your favor at TTOL, Captain. To say that I can say whatever I want at TTOL is obviously inaccurate.

        On to your accusation that I “call Torah folks ‘cult members’ and ‘satanists’ and God knows what else”, that is a false statement. Have I identified some teachings and doctrines as false at TTOL? Yes. One in particular that comes to mind is a teaching that the tree of life in the Scriptures is the Torah. There is NO TRUTH to that teaching, and I demonstrated from the Scriptures what, actually WHO, the tree of life is referring to, specifically in Revelation 22. I showed how the belief that the tree of life is the Torah comes from the practice of Kabbalah, which employs practices that the Bible defines as witchcraft. You take that and turn it into me calling someone a satanist! That’s quite a stretch, CO.

        As for me calling “Torah folks ‘cult members'”, that is also a false statement. Do many of the teachers in the HRM use tactics employed by cults? Absolutely. One reason that is true is that many of the teachers in the HRM come from cult backgrounds such as The Way International and The Worldwide Church of God (Armstronism). There is rampant redefining of Biblical terms and twisting and taking out of context of the Scriptures among those in the HRM. Those are behaviors that those in cults engage in. Do I go ’round calling HRMers ‘cult members’? No. Most are just sincere folks who have received some very persuasive false teaching.

        As for what happens when you ‘respond’ to others’ posts on TTOL . . . take it up with the Moderators there, Capt. Like I said, it’s not my deal.

      • On that note, JGIG, you might enjoy this well-written satire: http://cyberbrethren.com/2011/03/25/archeologists-discover-letter-written-to-st-paul/

        Take care,

      • I’ve seen that elsewhere. It’s a hoot! Thanks for the link =o).


      • I’m curious as to why you would come to a blog where you know your belief in Torah Observance over The Grace and Mercy of Jesus Christ would be disputed. Its almost as if something in you knows you’re missing out on something. Love? I see no love in your comments. If you think JGIG is lacking true salvation and you are concerned for her soul than why don’t you try to win her over with love instead of trolling her with disdainful comments? I read the same angry and disgruntled language in your writing as I see in liberals when I bring up the subject of abortion. Why is that?

      • You’ll have to take up your issues with the Mods at TTOL, CO. I have no authority there. I’m just a poster like you were, and am subject to the same rules of the forum that you were. And yes, Al and Texas Jon can be sarcastic, but you took it to a whole ‘nother level. For you to get banned in the ‘Law friendly’ atmosphere at TTOL says something about the overall tone of your posts.

        About your thread – I had (and still have) study notes all ready to go for a response to that thread. It was clear to everyone, including the Mods, what you were trying to do, CO. And like I said, I wasn’t bitin’. You (as far as I know) have not started a thread asking the same question on the religion page over at SB. Why not? If you do, btw, let me know via an email . . . busy homeschool time right now and I don’t check the forum as often as usual because we are so busy right now. Knowing you, you’d post the thread and I wouldn’t know about it and you would use that as ‘proof’ that I could not respond.

        Bottom line – if you have a problem with the Mods at TTOL, take it up with them.

      • “It was clear to everyone, including the Mods, what you were trying to do, CO”

        Apparently not, because getting you banned wasn’t the idea. I will gladly post the exact same thread with the exact same wording over in SB. I stand by everything I said on TOL, and I defy you or anyone else to point me to an instance where I crossed the line, especially considering the things others are allowed to post with no repercussions.

      • For anyone interested, CO has posted that thread on SB and it can be found HERE.

        I have one response there as of now, but am swamped with other things right now and will be out of town this weekend.

        As for ‘crossing the line’ over at TTOL, the Captain seems to be in denial about his behavior there. Let the reader go and check out the remaining threads in which he took part at The Seminary. TTOL culls the threads there pretty regularly, so at some point Captain Obvious will be just a memory as his posts will eventually drop off as the threads are culled.


  18. Hello.
    This discussion has proven interesting and enlightening. This is not a new problem in the world of Christianity or Judaism. It dates all the way back to the time of Christ and Paul. Jesus was accused of being a Sabbath breaker by such people and they sought to stone him on several occasions. Paul himself persecuted believers in Jesus to the point of arresting them and throwing them into prison.

    I have friends that have long been professing believers in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Redeemer that have been swayed in recent years by Hebraic Roots or Messianic teachings. They claim to still be ‘saved’ but that they ‘need’ to follow Torah, whatever that means to them.

    I have become convinced that people that become embroiled in these teachings do not know what it means to be Born Again. They are convinced that somehow they are responsible for their salvation, that they not only saved themselves by their obedience to God’s law or Torah but gain favor and blessing by their obedience. The Israelites were tested with the Law, promised blessing for obedience and cursing for disobedience. They failed miserably.

    Jesus told the religious leaders of his day that if they had truly believed Moses that they would believe Him since Moses wrote about Him. Not much has changed. This is an old controversy that Paul spends a great deal of time refuting in the epistles. In fact Paul tells us that his teachings are the direct result of a revelation and that he went to Jerusalem to verify with the Apostles and Elders there that his message was truth. They all agreed it was God’s grace and mercy that saves us all.

    Still there were conflicts. Men came to Antioch, including Peter that Paul called ‘of the circumcision’ who led even Barnabas astray.

    Galatians 2:14-16
    14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
    15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Others have quoted other passages that Paul wrote concerning salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and that works not only will not save us but will not make us better Christians, or Christ followers. The only thing that counts is “faith working itself out in love.” (Galatians 5:6)

    Those that are teaching that to truly follow the Messiah they must obey the law have forgotten that the law does not justify but condemn. It does not bring life but death for no one keeps the law and breaking only one commandment causes you to be a ‘law breaker’, the penalty for law breaking is death, just as the man that gathered wood on the Sabbath was stoned. Jesus paid the FULL penalty of the law and delivered all who believe in Him from the “curse of the law, because He became a curse for us.” (Galatians 3:17)

    The danger of now trying to improve one’s relationship with God by obeying the Jewish law, ordinances and so forth is that you will completely miss the mark. Simply put, it doesn’t work and you can’t do it! You run a serious danger of frustrating the Grace of God.

    Galatians 2:21
    21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    Galatians 3:21
    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    You can’t be saved by the law and everyone so far seems to get that in these posts but some are convinced that Tzt Tzt or circumcision (which is a symbol for the whole law) makes them more righteous. This is simply foolishness as Paul blatantly calls it. We are the righteousness of God in Christ apart from the law. Romans 3:20-31 makes this clear and it is true not just for the Gentile but for the Jew also, we are all justified, sanctified, made right with God through faith in Christ Jesus and no other way. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Don’t depend upon your self because the Law is depending upon yourself.
    Philippians 4: 9 states
    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    You simply can’t have this both ways. Right standing with God is only through faith in Christ Jesus and His salvation is complete. None of this gives a person a license to live in sin. Such people who live in sin and still think they are saved are kidding themselves. You must be born again, become a new creation.

    Galatians 6:15
    15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    2 Corinthians 5:17
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    I don’t care if people want to follow the Sabbath, follow the dietary laws, keep the feasts or any other Judaic custom or law. They can do anything they want but to think this makes them righteous or better than other believers is the epitome of arrogance and self-righteousness. Scripture plainly teaches us that the law only shows us our utter sinful nature and that we cannot do enough to please God except faith in His son and learning to live and walk daily in His Spirit. You do not get new birth or miracles by keeping the law but by believing.

    May the Lord bless and keep you all.

  19. JGIG,

    One line of reasoning that doesn’t seem to get much mention in these discussions is the accusation against Stephen in Acts 6:14: “for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place (the Temple) and will change the customs that Moses delivered to us.”

    True, these men are said to be “false witnesses”, but it is striking to me that Stephen never denies their claim. Given that this was a man with Apostolic backing (being chosen by the 12) who was apparently making some strong statements about the law being done with (think about it, they COULD have accused him of adultery if they wanted him dead – why did they pick the accusation about the law like they did unless there was enough element of truth to it to hold up?), it seems very, VERY clear that from earliest times after the ascension there was this move away from the Law, and towards Christ.

    Anyway, just something to chew on, I’d be interested to hear your take.

    Take care,

    • That’s an interesting perspective.

      Acts 6:8-15
      8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.” 15 And all who sat in the council, looking steadfastly at him, saw his face as the face of an angel.

      Interesting . . . Law ‘keepers’ say the same about Christians: “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.”

      I have seen this brought up once or twice in forum discussions, but I haven’t seen it get a lot of traction. I found a short article HERE that gives some interesting perspective on who Stephen’s accusers were and what were their likely motives. I haven’t read through the site yet, so cannot endorse all that is there, but found the perspective to be thought-provoking.

      Thanks and blessings,

  20. How do you dismiss Matt 5:17 ? NIV
    17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Excerpted from Compton’s Interactive Bible NIV
    Copyright (c) 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved

    Look very plain we are to try and keep the LAW.

    God Bless

  21. You say that you don’t need the Mosaic laws because its in your heart and wearing external garments doesn’t gaurantee faith and love of G-d. False. It’s just as possible for a jew to sin as it is a christian, regardless of faith or how you wear you clothes, this part is true. However, you have to understand that we’re talking about a law that G-d Himself told the jews He would never abrogate. So what makes christians think that tzittzit are null and void? G-d specifically said that these fringers are to be worn throughout the generations FOREVER. Not for a few years. Not until the Messiah comes around. In fact, the Torah states that during the revealing of the Messiah, Jews will be obligated to keep ALL of the Mitvot, commandments.

    • Hi Eliyahu,

      Luke 16:16
      16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

      Galatians 3:19-25
      19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

      21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

      23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

      Forever – “Forever” is a word used in the HRM to convince Christians under the New Covenant that the Mosaic Law, the “Instructions”, the Old Covenant, endure as a “forever” Covenant. That the Law did not “pass away”. That the Law was not “nailed to the Cross”. Forever to most of us means from a point in time, whether it be from now or from some point in the past, to an intangible distance in the future (or past, regarding the eternal nature of God) . . . infinity.

      Those in the Hebrew Roots Movement count on people thinking of that general definition when it comes to the word “forever” to sway them to believe this: That the verses referring God’s commandments (the Old Covenant) being “forever” binding prove that Christians (even though God has provided a New and superior Covenant, not dependent upon the actions of man Hebrews chapters 8-10) should be Torah observant. Let’s dig a little deeper into what the Hebrew concept of “forever” really means, since, after all, we’re supposed to be thinking with a Hebraic mindset . . .

      Hebrew Word for forever – From Crosswalk.com, (source Brown, Driver, Briggs Lexicon) – olam – עולם:

      Strongs H5769 –

      long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

      a.ancient time, long time (of past)
      b.(of future)
      1.for ever, always
      2.continuous existence, perpetual
      3.everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
      Olam can mean forever, but doesn’t always mean forever. Its meaning is conditional, depending on the nature of that which is being described.From Christian-thinktank.com : Olam thus seems to mean ‘indefinitely, with reference to the nature of the thing being so described.’ If the nature is God, then olam means ‘truly eternal’. If the nature is a human, then it means ‘as long as he lives’. If the nature is a relationship, then it means as long as the conditions upon which the relationship is based still hold. And this: And, since we know the Mosaic covenant was a conditional one, it could easily have been understood after the model of many others in the OT/Tanaak: “eternal, as long as the agreed upon conditions are met”. [Though I don’t agree with everything in the article cited, the two statements above give a good description of the conditional nature of the word “olam”.]

      We know that while God held up His end of the bargain concerning the Old Covenant, Israel failed again and again when it came to their end of the bargain (rebellion and idolatry). God, in His Grace and Mercy, not only sustained Israel, but provided a New Covenant . . . the terms of which are not dependent on Israel (man), but dependent upon Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, Who perfectly held up His (both) end(s) of the bargain. This is a New Covenant, offered first to Israel, then to all mankind, fulfilling the promise of redemption given to Adam and Eve in the Garden (Romans 1:16).

      Even from a Hebrew Roots site, Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings, we get this incomplete meaning of “olam”: The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. [An incomplete concept of “olam” – remember the definition is conditional, depending upon that which is being described.] The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is [can be] simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is “l’olam va’ed” and is usually translated as “forever and ever” but in the Hebrew it means “to the distant horizon and again” meaning “a very distant time and even further” and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.

      So in the Hebraic mindset, forever does not necessarily mean from a point in time to infinity. In fact, the concept of “olam”, when speaking of the Israelites’ failure in regard to the terms of the Old Covenant, flows beautifully into the truths of the New Covenant. (From Glossary A – F here at JGIG.)

      Scripture and Hebrew thought/definition stand against your view.


  22. I see you copy and paste real well. You’ve said a lot without saying anything.

  23. Israel failing the upkeep of the mitzvot has nothing to do with G-d changing his mind and declaring that His word no longer applies. You’re conclusions are misconstrued.

    • Your ignoring the realities of what it means to be in Christ, Eliyahu. You are correct that God does not change, but He obviously has changed the way He deals with mankind throughout Scripture. The Law was for a time – until the Seed should come. He came!


  24. So everybody here is still adamant that the mitzwot of Abba yhwh was done away with when j*s*s died. Open your eyes and look past the christian concept of what torah is. Torah can’t save anybody, but it’s a requirement to observe it out of love, respect/reverence for Abba Yhwh.

    • Hi Arnold,

      Welcome to JGIG.

      If you want to live under the Old Covenant, that is certainly your choice, but you are not abiding by the Law as God gave it. It’s impossible if for no other reason than the Temple and the priesthood have ceased. Oh, and there is that little matter of “12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.” (from Hebrews 7).

      The Law is not done away with; it still has a purpose, and that purpose is to point us to Christ. As a covenantal system, however, it is obsolete:

      Hebrews 8:13
      13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


  25. sure, it’s all about choice. The choice to accept truth and do the father’s will, or to maintain that churchianity and it’s doctrines are “hallowed”, or that god is not a name of shatan in disguise.

    • . . . and the choice whether or not to believe in the One that God sent and His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, Pentecost and what it means to put one’s faith and trust in Christ and what it means to be in Christ.

      What Jesus did MATTERS.


    • well, again, the German-derived name “God” is the equivalent of the Hebrew “El,” unless you’ve another English alternative translation for such names as Isra-El (God Prevails), or El-ijah (My God is Yah). Of course you should reject “churchianity.” Any kingdom but God’s must be rejected by those who accept the truth and do the Father’s will, His will being to accept the atonement of the Messiah on the cross, and the grace of His resurrection, and truly obeying Him by hearing and walking in the Holy Spirit, not the Law.

      • if xtian folks on jgig were actually ignorant of torah i would have tried harder. But it’s clear that grace seems to automatically fix everything when it comes to the followers of this greek dude jesus. So continue to do as your forefathers did- deny the fathers instructions. Love is doing everything for the father, belief without works is a job half done. So why bother?

      • Ephesians 2:1-10
        As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

      • Mr. Swartland, you simply ignored what I said.

        1. Jesus is not Greek. Iesous isn’t Greek either. It’s a transliteration of a Hebrew name.
        2. What works do you want us to do? The Torah? We who are under the Spirit are not under the Law. Don’t bother taking that out of context again, either, by saying “it’s the curse of the law,” because if you read that passage in Galatians, Paul had already returned to talking about the Law before advocating being under the Spirit.
        3. The essence of love is relationship, part of which is communication. Being obedient to one’s father or shepherd is a consequence of that relationship. But obedience how? To the Torah? I’m not part of that covenant–I’m under the New Testament, subject to those rules. And the primary rule is to HEAR and FOLLOW the Shepherd, not follow a bunch of dead words on dead stone.

        Paul’s analogy about the school-master is apt. The Father assigned His adopted children a tutor, who taught them many things. One day, they graduated–now all the lessons they learned are applied in working for the Father, not attending the tutor’s classes, following the tutor’s rules or schedule. Did God send the tutor? Will the tutor always be the tutor? Yes! But are we still students? No! By whose will? The Father’s, through His only begotten Son!

        Grace doesn’t mean we can do anything we want–we were given grace, gifts, so we can “hear under” the Father’s Spirit.

  26. Question for those at JGIG:
    If you are advocating that we do not have to keep the Laws of YaH Elohim, our Creator, why do you preach against homosexuality and tatooes? These are popular Christian “sins”, yet they are from the Laws of YaH in Genesis, the Laws at Sinai and in the Prophets, as recorded the Old Tesatment. These particular two I mentioned (homosexuality and tatooes) are not in the “ten commandments”, and any mention of them by Paul is from Paul’s knowledge of the Old Testament. So, what are you really preaching? Keeping portions of the Law?

    • Melinda, Romans 13:8-14 tells us quite clearly what God expects of us:

      8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
      11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

      As for preaching keeping portions of the Law, is that not what Torah folk do? Or are you offering sacrifices, stoning adulters, false prophets, and sabbath-breakers in your midst? For you to assert that Christians are the ones picking and choosing is ironic, don’t you think?

      What is being preached here is the Law of Christ; love God, love others. The writings to the Body of Christ after Pentecost tell us that love fulfills the Law; if we are loving God and others we are not violating what God expects of us. What is preached here is keeping the whole Law of Christ; no picking and choosing.

      As to your two specific examples, homosexuality and tattoos . . . you classify them as ‘popular Christian sins’. Really? Not in any of the local bodies I’ve been in. Are those things acts that cannot be forgiven? Does the Blood of Christ extend only so far?

  27. if we’re not supposed to live in shadows and not according to the letter, but by the Spirit (to which I agree), why is it then that christians baptize (shadow), re-enact the last supper monthly or weekly, (shadow) celebrate easter, (shadow) etc. you catch my drift.
    Isn’t the Holy Ghost supposed to be enough to guide you in the truth?
    Christ did die for all our sins (past and future), but by sinning more, because you’re afraid to do good works (Matt 5:16), you HAD Christ suffer even more.
    You will never be justified by your works, no matter how hard you try, but you sure can try to sin a less as possible!! (John 8:11)
    mainstream christians however don’t define sin as it was defined by God. (1 John 3:4)

    Jezus said in Matt 23:2-3
    Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

    So Jezus said to listen and do what The Father told Moses to give to the people, but don’t do after the works of the scribes and pharisees, because they came up with thousands of extra laws of which many contradicted the law of God.

    For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men(Mar 7:8-9) (Mar 7:13) (Gal 1:14) (Col 2:8)

    • Baptism is not a shadow, it’s a public proclamation of one’s faith, a symbolic representation of dying with, being buried with, and rising in New Life with Christ; that’s not shadow, that’s REALITY, Praise God!

      Celebrating the cutting of the New Covenant with the symbolic partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ is not shadow, it is remembrance of the completed Work of Christ – His fulfillment of all of the shadows of the Old Covenant!

      Celebrating the Resurrection of Christ is not a shadow – it is a celebration of the reality of the Resurrection of Christ Jesus through Whom we have New Life! So no, actually, I don’t catch your drift =o). You are in error to say that those things are shadows. They are not.

      You wrote, “You will never be justified by your works, no matter how hard you try, but you sure can try to sin a less as possible!!”

      Then you wrote, “mainstream christians however don’t define sin as it was defined by God. (1 John 3:4)”

      If sin reduction is your goal, let’s take a look at what the Law produces and what Grace and the Spirit produce:

      Law stirs up sin:

      Romans 7:7-8
      7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

      Law produces death:

      Romans 7:9-11
      9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.

      Law produces fruit unto death:

      Romans 7:5
      5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

      What are the results of a focus on Grace and the Spirit for those in Christ?

      Grace teaches us godliness:

      Titus 2:11-14
      11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It [grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

      The Spirit produces life:

      Romans 8:5-6
      5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

      The Spirit produces the Fruits of the Spirit:

      Galatians 5:22-25
      22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

      As for the rest of your comment, yes, Jesus preached the Law to those under the Law; the New Covenant was not yet in effect. Interestingly, you quote (grossly out of context) Gal. 1:14 and Col. 2:8 to support your assertion that the Law minus rabbinic additions to it stand. Let’s look at those passages:

      Galatians 1:11-23
      11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

      13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

      18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. 21 Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

      God did not lead Paul into a pure expression of Law, but into the Gospel of Grace and Truth, brought by Christ Jesus! What did Paul preach? The Law? No. Paul preached Christ (vs. 16)!

      Let’s take a look at the Colossians passage and see if Paul is wanting us to focus on Law or on Christ and His finished Work:

      Colossians 2:6-15
      6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

      8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

      9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

      13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

      God wasn’t after getting people to obey Law minus rabbinics; God was after turning spiritually dead people into spiritually alive people in Christ!

    • Hi u mentioned mt 23v2-3 now we accept the teachings of Christ and Him as its written in
      1 John 2:23-24 (NASB)
      23Whoever[ denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.]
      So if we accept the Son and His teaching we have the Father also.
      We r under the law of Christ

      Galatians 6:2-3 (NASB)
      2Bear[ one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill ] the[ law of Christ.]
      We r under the law of Christ the new covenant

  28. It baffles me that a group of people who so adamantly go on about “every jot and title of the Law” can’t fathom that there’s a one-vowel difference between “renew” and “new.” I would suggest getting a Strong’s Concordance, looking up the words, and go through the relevant scriptures. If your translation of “new” is “renew,” see if the other passages make sense. Take note of the mental gymnastics that are required to make your view fit. Or would you prefer I did so myself? I can make a list here, if necessary.

  29. It’s all about culture! If God wanted the Gospel to be preached to all nations, then He’d need it not to be limited by having a culture attached to it. Tying the Gospel down with a culture by saying that it has to be understood from a 1st century Hebrew perspective is just wrong. The Gospel should be clear no matter what color your skin or what tongue you speak. Thus, it must transcend culture, including the culture of the Hebrews, which includes Torah!

  30. I apologize for imposing because I know that this comment won’t sit well with anybody here. Be that as it may I’m going ahead anyway. Someone mentioned that the wearing of tzit-tzit in no way reminds any jew not to remember the commandments, that’s a lie of course since that someone isn’t omnipresent.

    As for me backing the brit chadasha and the hebrew version of jesus- that’s all in the past. My reason is simple. It has to do with evidence. Evidence that jesus never was, will or can be anointed of the Most High. I realize that everyone has a choice to believe what they want to believe, whether it be lies or truth.

    Jesus is a lie, so is his mythical virgin birth, his anointing, his resurrection, his second coming and his rapture among other things. Most importantly though is the fact that he (whether he was a dreamed up concept or a flesh and blood man) is NOT the Creator. I’ll be shot down for this (hopefully not literally) but those are the facts. Peace and love.

    • Hi Arnold – welcome to JGIG.

      I’m just curious, what brought you to your conclusions? I ask because you say that the ‘Hebrew version of Jesus – that’s all in the past’ for you. What brought you to your conclusions?

      Grace and peace to you,

  31. Without dropping some links this will be a very long explanation (I’d want your permission for that anyway since this is your site) but I’ll try to keep it short.

    I was born a Dutch-Reformed (this is insignificant but I’m just saying) then years after that I read a novel about jesus that contained the name yeshua, which sparked my interest. I got to Googling and things, according to me, came together when I discovered messianic judaism.

    I was still all for jesus, who I now referred to as yeshua, then yehoshua, then yahushua, and so on. I never figured (since I was still on a knowledge-gaining spree) that christianity and messianic judaism are exactly the same except for the fact that mj incorporates turah observance into its daily walk.

    The reason I’m so strongly against jesus or whatever people choose to call him is that none of the passages in the “old testament” have any bearing on him. The virgin birth is not about a virgin birth but about Isaiah’s wife who was already pregnant. The suffering servant refers to Israel if read in context. The king of Tyre lamentation has got nothing to do with a rebellious fallen angel but everything to do with that king’s vanity. You’re under no obligation to take my word for it, but that’s what it is.

    There are requirements to being the messiah. If the candidate fails in even one aspect he’s considered a fraud. It’s said that christ fulfilled the majority of prophecies pertaining to the messiah, but he wasn’t from the line of David, he didn’t oversee the rebuilding of the temple, he brought no peace, and he didn’t lead all nations back to the law of the Father.

    Another thing is that Yahuah said that there are no other deity’s besides Him. Jesus is a replacement deity for the so called evil, bloodthirsty “god” of the “old testament” but that’s erroneous, conditioned programming. Would I still have had faith in the empty salvation we’ve been told is found in jesus if I didn’t force myself to do some research? I’d say yes.

    My mind’s on a different plateau now. People can spit drivel about me being deluded or whatever, I take no offense, believe what you want, the truth is an entirely different matter though. It’s said that Yahusha means Yah is salvation, but jesus has no place in its definition.

    Oh damn. This wasn’t short at all. Sorry and that’s it.

    • No worries, Arnold, I asked =o). I hope you don’t mind, I did put some paragraph breaks in to make it easier to read.

      I gotta share a Dutch-Reformed joke with you: “When the Dutch-Reformed preachers saw the German-Reformed preachers drinking wine, their cigars nearly fell out of their mouths!”

      Everybody’s got their ‘thing’ that they make into Biblical standards, eh?

      I could attempt to show you why I believe what I believe about the points you raise, but I’m sure you’ve been there, done that, so I’ll just leave you with a couple of thoughts: The OT physical shadows point to the NT spiritual realities. Christ IS the Temple. Those in Christ DO have God’s Law – it’s the New Covenant Law of Love. And that New Covenant is available to all, through faith in Christ. Mini-sermon over =o).

      You’re very welcome to keep reading here, and if there’s anything you want to discuss, feel free. Take a peek at the Comments Policy if you would. I’ve been known to bend those guidelines when I think an issue is worth discussing.

      Grace and peace to you,

      • Yeah, I should’ve read the comment policy first but thanks anyway for allowing my wordiness. Anyway I don’t believe jesus foreshadowed anything, but that’s my baby isn’t it? Arguing any more points will also be fruitless since you’re convinced that your beliefs are sound. I’m glad though that we kept things civil. Peace and love.

    • Hello! I read your comment and wanted to reply. One thing I know for certain is that Jesus Christ is the suffering Servant. He is the true Israel. He is the Temple. The law is now written on our hearts. Christ obeyed the law perfectly in our place because we never can. He is our mediator, our advocate. He is the 2nd Adam. Christ fulfilled ALL of the prophecies from the O.T. He is our peace. And Christ does come from the line of David. The whole Bible is about Christ. The problem is that those from the HR movement, and even many Christians (called dispensationalists), believe in a physical restoration of the Temple. They believe in a physical kingdom. They believe that peace will be restored to physical Israel. When the Bible is read in this light, it is very easy for us to miss Christ. Once the Lord opens our eyes to these truths, the whole Bible makes perfect sense. It is beautiful & amazing! The whole Bible flows so perfectly. It’s interesting, just this morning I was reading how both the LORD’s appearance on Sanai (the giving of the law) and the Feast of Pentecost were 50 days after Passover (I believe?). The Holy Spirit was given to us at Pentecost and we now have the law written on our hearts!. If JGIG allows, I would like to post the article because it does a much better job of explaining it.

      Blessings to you!

  32. So, what exactly are you and what do you believe? The Gospel was a mystery, hidden by God in the Old Testament. The prophecies are midrashic, types and shadows. God purposely hid the prophecies so that the demonic princes of the world wouldn’t understand that the Messiah first had to come and die. If they had know, they wouldn’t have killed Him and there would be no salvation. He has also purposely blinded the hearts of the proud, so that they are unable to see and hear. He blinds the hearts of those who refuse to love the Truth.

    Moses was rejected by his people, but layer returned to save them. Joseph was rejected by his brethren, but they later came to him for salvation. David was rejected and later returned to become king.

    These are types and shadows.

    Jesus was rejected by His people, His brethren, but will soon come to save them and reign as King.

    He is coming again to fulfill everything that He didn’t fulfill at His first coming.

    You can choose to believe what you want, but let me warn you. There is soon coming a Man of Sin, the Antichrist, who will seen to fulfill all the supposed requirement of the Messiah, the very things you sought in Jesus.

    Do not follow him or accept his mark.

    “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

  33. Jesus wore tzit-tzit. Why shouldn’t I?

    • Wear them if you like, but you’re not commanded to, nor should you be teaching others to wear them. They are a reminder of the Law which we who are in Christ have died to (Rom. 7, Gal. 2). Our focus is to be fixed on Christ:

      2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (from Heb. 12)

      • Amen, it is all about Jesus! :)

        I don’t see, however, how you can say that we are not commanded to wear tzit tzit; the Scriptures say to in Numbers 15:38 “Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners.”
        This is inconsistent with your comment because it clearly says we should. Why the inconsistency? How does the wearing of tassels take away from our focus on Christ?

        In Christ,
        N. J. Pratt

      • Are you joined to Christ or to the Law? In what way are we to serve in the New Covenant?

        4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)

        18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (from Gal. 5)

  34. Ezekiel is pretty clear as to the rebuilding of a Temple, sacrifices, Sabbaths and or new moons (Rosh Kodesh-Head of Month) are to be restored beginning in chapter 40 but chapter 46 leaves no doubt when Messiah rules during the Millennial reign. I’d love to hear JGIG share it’s position on that prophetic scripture. I’m still smiling.

    • An interpretation of Ezekiel speaks of a specific Temple which makes major changes to Old Covenant practices. Read it carefully. For Ezekiel’s Temple to become active requires changes to a Law which Law-keepers tell us is unchangeable.

      As for Messiah ruling according to the Law in that Temple during a Millennial Reign, one must reconcile that view with some established Truths about our Messiah, Christ Jesus:

      1. Christ is of the wrong tribe of Israel to serve/rule as a priest in an Old Covenant temple. Christ is of the tribe of Judah, not of the tribe of Levi. For Him to serve in the Temple would be illegal according to the Law itself.

      2. Christ’s High Priesthood is permanent because of His indestructible LIFE. There is no going back to the Levitical priesthood. Therefore, there is no going back to the Old Covenant.

      3. Based on the Truths about Christ and His permanent position of Perfect High Priest, installed by an oath by God and by the power of an indestructible Life, one must evaluate whether or not the view of the Ezekiel passage is feasible or if it’s in error.

      I explore the Ezekiel passage in question and the High Priesthood of Christ in more depth in the article, Millennial Prophecy: Measuring Unrevealed Prophecies in Light of Revealed Truths.

      • I’m just now reading your article on Ezekiel’s temple in the millennium and what I have become keenly aware of, is I am an inadequate student to debate, dialogue with and in general discuss the scriptures..this in no way puts me down, but you are more advanced on what you believe, than what I think I believe.

        So with that said, I will simple read what you have offered, and listen to your responses to others. Sorry to have bothered you so much lately..

        [link added above for reference]

      • Aw, Jim, no bother =o). Sorry I’ve been so slow to get back to you.

        Please keep in mind that I’m just a ‘test everything’ kind of person; always have been since I read 1 Thes. 5:21 at age 11. I don’t take anything I’m taught as truth until I see how it measures up against contextual Scripture.

        The cool thing about God’s Word is that He ordained it to be read by everyone. He did not require that we come to it with a certain mindset (the oft-touted Hebraic lenses). While understanding ancient cultures (not just Hebrew culture, but other cultures, as well) is helpful, it’s not necessary because the Bible is about God and His love and plan for mankind, with Jesus as the Central theme throughout. Israel plays an important part in that, as they were the people group through whom God chose to bring Messiah, but they are not the focus, they were an instrument. Israel gets laid out there, flaws and all, successes and failures alike – an example not in Her obedience or faithfulness, for Her constant rebellion and idolatry are well documented, or even in Her culture or ethnic identity, but in Her humanity – with all its flaws – common to us all.

        What shines through? God’s faithfulness to mankind. God’s provision in the Gospel of Grace for mankind in Christ. And it is through the lens of
        —> Who Jesus is
        —> What He came to do
        —> What that actually accomplished, and
        —> Who those who put their faith in Christ are in Him
        that we need to evaluate everything in the Scriptures.

        For instance with Ezekiel’s Temple, many believe that that temple, having never been built, is still in the future. But the prophecy given was contingent on Israel doing something She chose not to do – hence Ezekiel’s Temple was never built.

        After the Cross, there is NO NEED for a physical temple, as Jesus and His Body are now the Temple of God and ALWAYS WILL BE. There are no more needs for sacrifices of any kind; Jesus was the once, for all perfect sacrifice for all mankind. He provided for the cleansing from sin as well as for our purification. When Jesus gave up His Spirit, He clearly stated, “It is finished.” No more sacrifices required, ever, period.

        I like how Andrew Farley puts it: As you read through the Old and New Covenant Scriptures, like in a mystery novel, once you get to the surprise ending, when you go back through and read the earlier parts of the mystery, you can see how it all points to the culmination and supports the surprise ending of the story, and you never read the earlier parts of the story the same way again with the end result in view.

        That’s how it is with the Old and New Covenant Scriptures; when you read the Old Testament through the lens of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ, everything else falls into place. In Torah-centric teaching it’s often stated that Peter tells us that Paul’s writings can be difficult to understand. Note that Peter had been called out by Paul for going along with the Circumcision Group (the Judaizers of the day) in Paul’s letter to the Galatians so Peter had a little stinging memory of Paul’s strong words! But what was Paul telling Peter? Grace, not Law is how we must continue in Christ. So if one is trying to force a Torah-centric paradigm into Paul’s writings, his writings do indeed become VERY difficult, and many linguistic and contextual gymnastics have to occur to make Paul out to be a preacher/practicer of Torah Law. But if one reads Paul simply for what he’s saying – explaining the Work of Christ and who we as believers are in Him from a Christ/Grace-centric paradigm, Paul is not difficult to understand. Remember that Peter was writing to who? Jews. He was an apostle to primarily Jews/Israel, and Jews/Israel were understandably centered on a Law paradigm, which, outside of an understanding of the Work of Christ, would make Paul difficult to understand.

        I say all that to say this: As you study, make sure you have the right lenses on, the lenses that look through the Work of Christ, past and present. It is the express goal of this site to always point you to Jesus. If I err, I’m confident that if I’m pointing you to Christ, He is able to correct any error contained here in your heart and mind. Everything on the Media Page and other resource pages that you can access through the tabs above point to Christ, His Work, and who believers are in Him. Please include those resources in your studies and see if you don’t find that the New Covenant, when fully preached =o), makes a lot of sense.

      • You said:

        2. Christ’s High Priesthood is permanent because of His indestructible LIFE. There is no going back to the Levitical priesthood. Therefore, there is no going back to the Old Covenant.

        What does the following mean then? I’ve tried to research a little further, in reference to statement above, and within the scholar’s realm, is there questions as to Zadok’s lineage?

        Ezekiel 43:18 Then he said to me, “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: These will be the regulations for the burning of offerings and the sprinkling of blood when the altar is built. 19 At that time, the Levitical priests of the family of Zadok, who minister before me, are to be given a young bull for a sin offering, says the Sovereign Lord. 20 You will take some of its blood and smear it on the four horns of the altar, the four corners of the upper ledge, and the curb that runs around that ledge. This will cleanse and make atonement for the altar. 21 Then take the young bull for the sin offering and burn it at the appointed place outside the Temple area.

      • Again, on this side of the Cross, we must evaluate everything written on the other side of the Cross in its context for when it was written.

        Should we evaluate Christ’s Work and say that His Priesthood is NOT Permanent because of an oath made by God and an indestructible life because of what Ezekiel wrote in another Covenant for another time, or should we now view what Ezekiel wrote in light of the Realities that are in Christ?

        Specifically to vs. 21 regarding the sin offering, are there any more offerings necessary or accepted on this side of the Cross? No. In fact, such sacrifices offered would be an abomination and a HUGE offense to the Work of Christ, the Perfect, Once for all, Lamb of God. No sacrifice need be added to the Perfection offered in Christ. The letter to the Hebrews lays out the superiority and the finality of the Work of Christ and the propitiation accomplished in Him vs. the temporary atonement offered by the Levitical priesthood through the blood of bulls and goats.

        As I stated in my earlier comment: evaluate everything through the Work and High Priesthood of Christ. We are post-Cross/Resurrection/Ascension/High Priesthood, not pre the Work of Christ.

        Will there someday be a temple rebuilt and sacrifices offered? Well, it remains to be seen, but the Temple Institute in Israel is certainly working on it! Will God inhabit that temple? No. Why? Because for those in Christ, He now inhabits US. His Temple is made up of LIVING STONES (1 Pet. 2), and the sacrifices He desires are LIVING sacrifices, having been crucified with Christ and raised again with Him, and we praise and thank Him (Gal. 2, Rom. 12, Heb. 13). THAT’S the kind of worship that God takes pleasure in on this side of the Cross \o/!

  35. I come from a Christian church back ground but have decided to do what Yeshua told all who would follow Him and be children of the true God. If you love me ,keep my commandments. Plain and simple, He never changes. Maybe so many of the church will be the ones He told or will tell “depart from Me you workers of lawlessness,I never knew you” .Sad so many will be sent to outer darkness because of not really knowing Him. Such deception only comes from satan.

    • 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
      29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (from Jn. 6)

      23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)

      God is very clear about what are His commandments after the Cross – believe in the One He sent and love one another. There are no requirements to wear tzit tzit, keep dietary laws or a seventh day Sabbath, or the appointed Feasts of Israel. Do those things if you wish, but doing or not doing them will have no effect on whether or not you are ‘cast out’.

      No, knowing Christ is receiving His gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and new life! Christ in you is the hope of glory, not you pursuing Torah the hope of glory.

      Grace and peace to you,

In 500 words or less . . .

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: