What About ‘Hyper-Grace’???

37 Responses

cowb0y77, on February 26, 2014 at 5:56 pm said:

Your blog is centralized around bashing of Hebrew roots people who have the same Messiah… but practice it differently.. Trust me no one in their right mind is going to accuse you of hyper grace mam’, no offense intended. Even with this post you put down Dr. Brown with a slide of how long his book is…

Reply
- JGIG, on February 26, 2014 at 6:08 pm said:
  
  cowb0y, you’ve made that accusation against this site before. Bashing does not happen here. And I didn’t ‘put down’ Dr. Brown. He’s certainly entitled to his opinion, as I am to mine. His coining of the phrase, “Hyper-Grace” is the new cry of “Antinomianism!”, and I simply want my readers to know that there are lots of good resources that support the Gospel of Grace.
  
  Grace and peace to you,
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
  - cowb0y77, on February 26, 2014 at 8:07 pm said:
    
    Please be prayerful about the post which you invest your time in. As believers we can sit here and point fingers at each other being overly critical – or we can do our best at the great commission. I’m sorry but I’m not the only voice on your blog that shares my opinion, several others have said the same thing. There seems to be an intolerance of others that don’t validate your opinion. If anyone has offended you in the past from the HR movement I would apologize on their behalf. We can either build bridges or burn them. I could set up a blog looking with a not so big magnify glass at Catholics and be critical on how they practice their faith, but at the end how does that make me a better ambassador to Him? Like wise how does bashing Jim Staley,or a book that you don’t like further being an ambassador to Him? If you don’t like something then shouldn’t we just not validate it at all? Please be prayerful.
  - JGIG, on February 26, 2014 at 9:11 pm said:
    
    cowb0y, I hear what you’re saying, and I’m guessing that you don’t post this kind of comment on Hebrew Roots blogs/sites that DO bash Christianity. Just a guess.
    
    I also find it somewhat interesting that you figure that this site has gone together without much prayer, or that I should become ‘prayerful’, implying that I have not been prayerful concerning the content of this site. Can you see at least a little presumption on your part?
    
    The only ‘intolerance’ I have is against doctrines that come against the Gospel of Grace, the completed Work of Christ, and teachings which come against His Perfect High Priesthood. Believe whatever you choose to believe; I have no desire to change your mind. Results are God’s department, not mine. This site is designed more for Christians who have had Law-keeping sects cross their paths and to help them as they sort out what they’re dealing with.
    
    Regarding Jim Staley, folks can read an examination of his ‘Identity Crisis’ and other teachings, as well as his story about how Passion For Truth Ministries started and some concerns about his leadership style here: Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley I’m content for folks to make their own judgements about it =o).
    
    One last thing: You wrote, “If you don’t like something then shouldn’t we just not validate it at all?”
    
    Does that sound very Christ-like, cowb0y? Did Jesus ever take stands?
  - cowb0y77, on February 27, 2014 at 8:01 am said:
    
    Concerning Jesus making stands, yes He did and I’m glad you mentioned that! But He confronted the people. So based off that comment, I’m assuming in your, “judging righteously” that you have personally made contact with these people and talked to them either via, e-mail, phone or in person before you would post something on the world wide web….if you want to compare your actions to Christ I would go through the same protocol too. He ate dinner with the people He disagreed with and said it to their faces or when they were in present company.
    
    As far as prayer goes, sure but you can hear: 1) God 2) Your Ego 3) The adversary. We all need discernment myself not excluded.
    
    “The only ‘intolerance’ I have is against doctrines that come against the Gospel of Grace”, so anything that isn’t what you believe in (because you believe in the Grace Gospel) – which was exactly my point. I’ve seen believers in Syria, pictures, Muslims are killing them like flys in brutal fashions. Look I don’t agree with the Coptic Christians on certain things but they share the same Messiah, and when push comes to shove are dying for Him and not renouncing their faith up to their last breath. There are Messianic people or what ever you want to call us that don’t renounce faith in the face of tribulation because it makes sense to us too… are you seeing the connections I’m trying to make?
    
    Personally send me the blogs that HR people are being jerks, jerks are present in the world and will become more apparent as people get spiritually attacked without a doubt. I’ll personally try to make contact with them if that’s what you are asking – I have no problem with that. Each side (law keepers and non law keepers) are doing a fair amount of cursing (not blessing), there seems to be a lot of in house fighting -it’s getting beyond ridiculous. The world is a powder keg right now, we don’t need to be pointing fingers at each other we need to be holding hands. Things will be revealed to me and to you in His timing, He is sovereign – I am not concerned as long as we continue to look to grow our relationship with Him and can set aside our ego admitting that we both could be wrong on things and still have much to learn.
    
    I do admire that you are willing to step into, “the fire” with every post knowing you will get guff from people that don’t agree with you even if its your own brothers and sisters in Christ. That does take a certain level or bravery. So know that I can personally disagree on the details, but there is a level of respect, hopefully it’s mutual. The only reason why any of us woke up this morning is because He gave us a chance to act as a vessel to glorify Him, there was no other reason. Praise Him.
  - JGIG, on February 27, 2014 at 2:12 pm said:
    
    You wrote, “. . . I’m assuming in your, ‘judging righteously’ that you have personally made contact with these people and talked to them either via, e-mail, phone or in person before you would post something on the world wide web . . .”
    
    Yes, cowb0y, I did ask Dr. Brown, on his ‘Ask Dr. Brown’ Facebook page. I copied and pasted my post in the comments under this post. Read through – you’ll find it. That said, understand that Dr. Brown is publicly stating his opinions and publishing them publicly. It is not inappropriate to examine those things publicly. Christ did not pull the Pharisees aside and privately state His concerns. He called them out publicly. A technology culture was unheard of during Christ’s earthly ministry, so to make comparisons there doesn’t really wash.
    
    You wrote, “As far as prayer goes, sure but you can hear: 1) God 2) Your Ego 3) The adversary. We all need discernment myself not excluded.”
    
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (from Jn. 10)
    
    Interesting follow-up verse there:
    
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    
    Knowing that we’re hearing His voice will always line up with what He says in contextual Scripture.
    
    You wrote, “‘The only ‘intolerance’ I have is against doctrines that come against the Gospel of Grace’, so anything that isn’t what you believe in (because you believe in the Grace Gospel) – which was exactly my point. I’ve seen believers in Syria, pictures, Muslims are killing them like flys in brutal fashions. . . . are you seeing the connections I’m trying to make?”
    
    I actually edited that ‘intolerance’ sentence in my previous comment to include the following, as it did not accurately reflect what I meant to say. I used the word ‘intolerance’ in my reply only to answer your charge, which was based more on your perception than on my position. It now reads thus: The only ‘intolerance’ (note the quotation marks) I have is against doctrines that come against the Gospel of Grace, the completed Work of Christ, and teachings which come against His Perfect High Priesthood.
    
    The major arguments of the so-called anti-hyper-grace folks actually act with far more intolerance than folks like me. It doesn’t mean that they’re not believers, but it does mean that they’re teaching other believers to live in fear of and with a focus on sin instead of living in the Rest of Christ and focusing on Him. And that makes for a very unhealthy Body that doesn’t reproduce well, but is always navel-gazing to make sure that She’s ‘acceptable’ to a God Who has already accepted Her in Christ!
    
    You linking your perceived intolerance in me to the martyrdom of believers elsewhere is ridiculous. Any intolerance to minimizing the Work of Christ (which is the Gospel of Grace – 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (from Jn 1)), is met by the Grace ‘camp’ going about patiently teaching and showing from the Scriptures the simple Truths of the Gospel of Grace. So no, I don’t see where you’re going there. I do see where you trying to force it, though, and it’s an ugly place which bears false witness against those who preach the Gospel of Grace.
    
    You wrote, “Personally send me the blogs that HR people are being jerks, jerks are present in the world and will become more apparent as people get spiritually attacked without a doubt. I’ll personally try to make contact with them if that’s what you are asking – I have no problem with that.”
    
    No, cowb0y, that’s not what I’m asking. Those folks are simply bearing the fruit of what they believe. You can’t tell them what fruit to bear; it is what it is. The cure to what ails them is the Gospel of Grace. In Him good fruit is produced BY Him; we simply bear it.
    
    You also wrote, “I do admire that you are willing to step into, “the fire” with every post knowing you will get guff from people that don’t agree with you even if its your own brothers and sisters in Christ. That does take a certain level or bravery. So know that I can personally disagree on the details, but there is a level of respect, hopefully it’s mutual. The only reason why any of us woke up this morning is because He gave us a chance to act as a vessel to glorify Him, there was no other reason. Praise Him.”
    
    Thanks for that =o).
    
    Grace and peace,
    -JGIG
  - JGIG, on February 27, 2014 at 2:56 pm said:
    
    cowb0y, here are two articles giving good examples of how the anti-hyper-grace folks deal with the issue vs. how Grace folks deal with the issue:
    
    Grace mixed with Law – 8 Signs of ‘Hypergrace’ Churches
    
    Gospel of Grace – 8 Signs of Hyper-Grace Churches
    
    Who’s lookin’ intolerant there, hmmm? =o)
  - cowb0y77, on February 27, 2014 at 5:05 pm said:
    
    I’m not hear for a lecture, I put in my two cents and that’s it. Luke 14:1-24 is just one that i can think of off my head that he had supper with them so I’m not sure what you are talking about that he didn’t. He didn’t graffiti is on the wall of the temple either. You posted it on his facebook? Look you keep on doing what you are doing, it’s honestly fine by me. I wasn’t attacking you by the way, why you feel the need to attack me not really sure. I guess that’s the tactic, disqualify and make them shut up.
  - JGIG, on February 27, 2014 at 7:24 pm said:
    
    cowb0y wrote, “I’m not hear for a lecture, I put in my two cents and that’s it.”
    
    Maybe not to get one (which you haven’t – conversations are a back-and-forth endeavor, which we’ve been doing), but you’ve been giving a couple in your two cents worth =o). And that’s okay. We can learn where each other is coming from in the process, and that’s a good thing.
    
    You also wrote, “Luke 14:1-24 is just one that i can think of off my head that he had supper with them so I’m not sure what you are talking about that he didn’t.”
    
    ??? You lost me there, cowb0y. That was not a topic of discussion; only that Christ did call out folks on occasion. I never said Jesus didn’t have supper with the Pharisees. Jesus was a friend of sinners – the religious and otherwise.
    
    As for the rest of your comment, I didn’t feel like you were attacking me at all, and never said such. I’ve found that when a believer actually answers the challenges that someone like you makes, you’re not quite sure what to do with it.
    
    I have not been angry or attacking, just answering you and calling you out when you say something unfair (like the killing folks that disagree bit – sheesh). I can only be responsible for what I say, not for how you take it. And if you’ve spent any time at all reading here at JGIG, there’s no attempts to shut anyone up. If you’re feeling ‘disqualified’, perhaps it’s time to re-examine some of the issues discussed. Just a thought.
    
    Grace and peace to you,
    -JGIG
Rick Owen, on February 26, 2014 at 7:01 pm said:

When I was in Israel, I was asked by a rather legalistic fellow if I thought “once saved, always saved” or whether I could lose my salvation. My response startled him: “I don’t care.” He demanded to know why not. I explained that if I focus on Yeshua, and trust Him that He is able to pick me up even when I stumble (and I do stumble quite often), why should I worry about such a thing? He then explained that it would lead to sin. I rebutted that the biggest, most spectacular sinners in Christendom were Pentecostal pastors who teach that one can lose their salvation, and that the most uptight and legalistic pastors in Christendom were Baptists, who teach eternal security. That is the reverse of his prediction.

I like Dr. Brown very much. I suspect what he is reacting to is not so much the Biblical concept of grace, but the extravagances of televangelists and large quasi-prosperity churches with feel-good theology and emotional congregations. He objects to the shallow. I’d have to more research to see if he promotes Torah-keeping, which I suppose he doesn’t. A great many Christians who don’t keep torah still insist on following the Ten Commandments, or their understanding of them.

My favorite Messianic pastor of all was the late Art Katz. A very serious man, he was as likely to speak out against the anti-grace of the Torah-keepers as he was the lack of holiness and sobriety in mainstream Evangelical churches. Moshe Rosen (also with the Lord now). founder of Jews Jesus, said of him “everytime he speaks, he never has anything good to say about me, or my organization–but everything he says is the truth.” Not that Art was perfect. He could be extremely dower. He was called to experience true fellowship, which would be a welcome salve for most of us, but for him was part of “dying to self.” Very little of his writings reflect the joy of our salvation, but instead call on us to follow Yeshua, and be TRUE, no matter what.

Reply
- JGIG, on February 26, 2014 at 7:56 pm said:
  
  Hi Rick,
  
  My intent is not to ‘speak out against’ Dr. Brown, it’s just that he’s made himself a lightning rod regarding this particular issue and has popularized the term ‘Hyper-Grace’, tying GREAT negativity to the Gospel of Grace. Sid Roth surmises during the interview linked to below that this ‘Hyper-Grace Movement’ could be the “Great Deception leading to the Great Falling Away!”
  
  The above post has more to do with equipping believers with good resources to defend the Gospel of Grace rather than to challenge Dr. Brown. Over a year ago when I saw Dr. Brown’s teaching on Hyper-Grace, “Dr. Michael Brown: Hyper Grace The Great Deception of the 21st Century” (before his book was complete) I was saddened, because I did have a degree of respect for him. Upon further examination of what he believes, however, that respect has waned.
  
  I posted this on his ‘Ask Dr. Brown’ Facebook page:
  
  Hi Dr. Brown,
  
  I guess I need some clarification of your position regarding the question of whether or not Christ died once for all sins for all time. You say yes in your answer to Pierre, yet in your interview with Sid Roth back in December starting at time stamp 8:02 this was the exchange between Sid and yourself:
  
  Sid: “Mike, what would you say the fundamental deception is in this ‘hyper-grace’ message?”
  
  You (speaking with the caption on the screen, ‘Fundamental Deception – All your future sins are forgiven in advance’): “One of the big concepts is this: When you get saved, God not only forgives your past sins, and your present sins, but all of your future sins He forgives, in advance. So that means, if, if you go out and blow it tomorrow, you don’t have to say, ‘God, I’m sorry I sinned, wash me, cleanse me, forgive me’ because you’re already forgiven. That means that the Holy Spirit will never convict you of sin because God’s already forgiven that sin. That means that no matter what you do, it cannot even affect your relationship with God or your standing with God, because you’ve already been pronounced forgiven. That means that, that, that if you or I do something atrocious in God’s sight it doesn’t even grieve Him because He doesn’t even see it. He always only sees you as perfectly righteous and therefore you never, ever, have to deal with sin.”
  
  Sid: “Wait a second. Are these the fringe bloggers that are saying these things, or are the main grace teachers saying what you’ve just said?”
  
  You: “Oh! This is fundamental! One of the most famous, prominent ones out there will say, he says, ‘God does not give forgiveness in installments.’ So the moment you get saved, all your future sins are already pronounced forgiven.”
  
  The so-called ‘hyper-grace’ position is that all sins are forgiven for all time and that when we receive Christ, we enter into that which He has done by faith, and it’s credited to us as righteousness (Rom. ch. 3-10, 2 Cor. 5:16-21).
  
  And you answered in the affirmative when Pierre asked you if you believe that Christ died once for all sins for all time.
  
  Yet you effectively say above that forgiveness of past, present, and future sins is the ‘fundamental deception in the hyper-grace message’.
  
  The way you’ve presented what you believe is that Christ died for all sins for all time except for believers’ future sins.
  
  There is a clear disconnect in what your answer to Pierre was and what you relayed in your interview with Sid Roth.
  
  Will you please clarify?
  
  I understand that Dr. Brown is a very busy man and it’s possible he never saw my comment; he never did reply.
  
  The maligning of the Gospel of Grace has become a disagreement over at least one core issue: Was Jesus’ sacrifice for all sin for all time or wasn’t it? Are those who receive the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and New Life in Christ forgiven or aren’t they? Do they drift in and out of a state of salvation based on a combination of their behavior and how up-to-date they are on their confessing and repenting? Does the Holy Spirit leave us when we sin and then ‘grace’ us again with His presence once we confess and repent or better yet, when we avoid sinning altogether?
  
  These are core issue questions with answers worth taking a stand for. And it is all about Yeshua – that’s the whole point about the Gospel of Grace. The really interesting thing for me personally is that the more established I get in Grace, the more I grow to love and want to honor Christ. He becomes ever more real in my life – and that’s a good thing =o).
  
  Reply
  - Truth Preacher, on February 26, 2014 at 10:18 pm said:
    
    I am sorry, but you are posting NONSENSE. Brown isn’t attacking the gospel of Grace, but a PEVERSION OF IT. Why are you so dense that you cannot understand that? You are like the Judaizers who think we are promoting lawlessness and anti-“torah” if we don’t follow an expired contract under Moses! Here the Apostles:
    
    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
    
    Do you see that??? People were TURNING THE FRACE OF GOD into a license for sin! It has happened, it can happen and it does happen. Joseph Prince is a perverter of the Gospel of Grace.
    
    Why did Peter have to say THIS at the end of his epistle?
    
    1Pe 5:12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
    
    Because people were preaching FALSE GRACE. They were teaching HYPER-GRACE. The were teaching Christians could go on in sin and that there was no danger. Gnostics taught Once Saved Always saved. Gnostics taught it didn’t matter how you lived.
    
    Earlier Peter said:
    
    1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
    1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
    1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
    
    Hyper grace teaches we don’t have to live and be holy. LIES
    
    Hebrews 12 says TO BELIEVERS to pursue holiness WITHOUT WHICH NO MAN WILL SEE THE LORD
    
    That is the TRUE GOSPEL OF GRACE
    
    Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, LET US HAVE GRACE, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
    Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
    
    Hyper grace heretics DENY THE ABOVE. We affirm it.
    
    Lastly, Christ PAID FOR the sins of all. But NO ONE IS FORGIVEN who does not repent. Otherwise, you believe EVERYONE IS SAVED simply because Christ died for their sins! If you deny this, then you say THERE ARE CONDITION to forgiveness, AND WE AGREE! The conditions DON’T CHANGE when one is born again. We are told to CONFESS OUR SINS and we will be forgiven. Paul told the Corinthians:
    
    2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
    2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and HAVE NOT REPENTED of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
    
    Paul was expected these believers TO REPENT of their sin, and warned them that if when he got there and they still hadn’t done so, he would deal with them.
    
    Unfortunately, anyone who embraces the antinomian heresy of Once saved Always Saved ends up embracing other errors, like you have. That poisonous heresy infects other truths.
  - JGIG, on February 27, 2014 at 2:55 am said:
    
    Thank you, ‘Truth Preacher’, for your comments.
    
    I encourage you to read D.R. Silva’s Hyper-Grace: The Dangerous Doctrine of a Happy God, as well as the other links embedded in the post above, as they answer the objections and false accusations that you raise in your comment.
    
    Do some use Grace as a ‘license to sin’? Yep. They do. And its destructive to them and to those around them and distracts them not only from their relationship with God, but also from what God has for them. There’s also the very real possibility that some of those folks have missed the Truths of the Gospel of Grace altogether and aren’t believers at all.
    
    Then there are those believers who, trust me, are miserable in their sinning because it goes against their New Creation reality. I’ve been there. And I was miserable. And God gently broke me and lovingly restored me. I suffered the natural consequences of my actions – God didn’t need to ‘punish’ me – no, the judgement for all my sins had all been dealt with at the Cross. 1 John 1:9 was actually a great comfort to me – I knew that I had confessed my sins and that God was faithful to cleanse me of ALL unrighteousness – at age 8. I’m so thankful that all means all and that God no longer holds my sins against me (2 Cor. 5:18-19). Instead He was there to bind up my broken heart and love me with His wonderful, unconditional love.
    
    See, Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness (Titus 2:11-14). Some of us are just slow learners =o). But He is patient.
    
    A couple of points I’d like to address in your comment:
    
    1) “Hyper grace teaches we don’t have to live and be holy. LIES”
    
    No, it doesn’t. The Gospel of Grace teaches that holiness is a fruit of living in Christ, not a requirement for living in Christ. As we learn to let Christ live in and through us, holiness is the result. A good article regarding this can be found here:
    “Practical Holiness” – Your Fast-Track for Setting Aside Grace…
    
    2) “Lastly, Christ PAID FOR the sins of all. But NO ONE IS FORGIVEN who does not repent. Otherwise, you believe EVERYONE IS SAVED simply because Christ died for their sins!”
    
    Name one person who Jesus forgave who confessed their sins and repented to Him. How were they forgiven? Christ chose to forgive them.
    
    And He did the work of the Cross to do this:
    
    2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (from 1 Jn. 2)
    
    Which resulted in this:
    
    18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)
    
    Which gives believers this job:
    
    And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (also from 2 Cor. 5)
    
    So that unbelievers have the opportunity to do this:
    
    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; (from Jn. 3)
    
    So that they can receive this:
    
    17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
    . . . 20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (from Rom. 5)
    
    So that this will not be the case:
    
    . . . but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (from Jn. 3)
    
    But that this will be the case:
    
    When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (from Eph. 1)
    
    And they can have New Life in Christ:
    
    17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
    . . . 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (from 2 Cor. 5)
    
    And this:
    
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (from Eph. 2)
    
    And when we grow to understand this:
    
    14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (from Eph. 3)
    
    We begin to do this:
    
    16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    . . . 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (from Gal. 5)
    
    So no, not preaching universalism here. The Bible clearly teaches that we must receive the gifts of Forgiveness, Righteousness, and New Life in Christ. Forgiveness makes it possible for us to receive the Righteousness of God in Christ and New Life in Him, and makes it possible for us to become the adopted of God, sealed with His Holy Spirit. All of that together is salvation. Forgiveness by itself is not salvation; forgiveness makes salvation possible.
    
    Repentance is the changing of one’s mind about our sin and our own fleshly righteousness and laying all that down and receiving God’s forgiveness and superior gift of Christ’s Righteousness, resulting in New Life for us. A really good teaching on this can be found here: God’s Solution to Man’s Problem – Life! – Study notes available HERE.
    
    3) “Paul was expected these believers TO REPENT of their sin, and warned them that if when he got there and they still hadn’t done so, he would deal with them.”
    
    How was Paul going to ‘deal with them’? Take away their salvation? Your next comment seems to imply such:
    
    4) “Unfortunately, anyone who embraces the antinomian heresy of Once saved Always Saved ends up embracing other errors, like you have. That poisonous heresy infects other truths.”
    
    Either the Work of Christ is able to save completely or it is not. Either what Jesus did is enough or it is not. Either Christ is our Perfect High Priest or He is not. Either those who receive what Christ has done are the adopted of God and sealed with the Holy Spirit or they are not. Please examine the Scriptures more closely to see what God says about such things.
    
    Grace and peace to you,
    -JGIG
  - Truth Preacher, on February 27, 2014 at 7:16 am said:
    
    Are you a Calvinist?
  - JGIG, on February 27, 2014 at 1:06 pm said:
    
    No. I believe in the Gospel of Grace, not the man-made ‘doctrines of grace’.
    
    First you surmise that I’m a universalist and then ask if I’m a Calvinist?
    
    I’m just a believer in the Gospel of Grace and the complete Work of Christ =o).
    
    It’s really not all that complicated.
  - Truth Preacher, on February 27, 2014 at 7:21 pm said:
    
    I am not accusing you of being a Universalist. But your argument to defend OSAS logically leads to it, if you will follow it to the end. Also, you use the same Calvinistic errors to defend the idea that our sins are FORGIVEN past present and future. This is Calvinism.
    
    Our sins are PAID FOR. As a matter of fact. ALL SIN IS PAID FOR. But NO ONE is forgiven until they repent and receive Christ.
    
    You argue as if there are no conditions to forgiveness!
    
    If that is true, then EVERYONE MUST BE SAVED THEN, since “all sins are forgiven, past, present and future”.
    
    You can’t have it both ways. Either all sin is forgiven, and hence universalism, or all sin is paid for, but not forgiven until the terms are met.
    
    Why would you think believers don’t need to repent of sins?
  - JGIG, on February 27, 2014 at 9:00 pm said:
    
    OSAS does not lead to universalism. Following OSAS to its logical end goes to the efficacy of the Work and High Priesthood of Christ, resulting in the eternal security of the *believer*.
    
    And the Bible clearly shows that in Christ the sins of the world have been dealt with – forgiven – and that in Christ, God is not holding sins against any of us (as detailed in my earlier post). Forgiveness does not equal salvation, however, but makes salvation possible, also detailed in my earlier post. Did you read it?
    
    And the belief that all sins, past, present, and future, are forgiven is not a Calvinist idea, it’s God’s idea. Either what Christ did was enough or it wasn’t. What say you?
    
    Regarding repentance, it’s clear you misunderstand what repentance is. Here’s what a non-‘hypergrace’ source has to say about repentance (from Bible.org):
    
    Is repentance necessary for salvation?
    Emotions run high and opinions vary widely on this issue, but I’ll share my convictions on this issue.
    
    The word “repent” has to be understood within the context in which it is being used. In fact, very often, it should not even be translated “repent” because of the wrong preconditioned theological connotations this carries. It is a matter of what some would call, “illegitimate totality transfer.” This occurs when the meaning of a word in one passage is carried over to every other place the word occurs. The Greek word for “repent” is metanoia (noun) or metanoeo (verb). It basically means a change of mind and the context must determine what is involved in that change of mind. In passages where salvation is in view it is equivalent to believe or trust in and involves a change of mind about any form of self-trust in human works, good deeds, religious tradition, etc. followed by a trust in the finished work of Christ which alone has the power to save us. It means a turning from self-trust to trust in Christ.
    
    Believe and repent are never used together as if teaching two different requirements for salvation. When salvation from eternal condemnation is in view, repent (a change of mind) and believe are in essence used as synonyms.
    
    Lewis Chafer wrote:
    Too often, when it is asserted—as it is here—that repentance is not to be added to belief as a separated requirement for salvation, it is assumed that repentance is not necessary to salvation. Therefore it is as dogmatically stated as language can declare, that repentance is essential to salvation and that none could be saved apart from repentance, but it is included in believing and cannot be separated from it (Lewis Sperry Chafer, Vital Theological Issues, Roy B. Zuck, General Editor, Kregel, Grand Rapids, 1994, p. 119).
    
    Roy B. Zuck writes:
    Repentance is included in believing. Faith and repentance are like two sides of a coin. Genuine faith includes repentance, and genuine repentance includes faith. The Greek word for repentance (metanoia) means to change one’s mind. But to change one’s mind about what? About sin, about one’s adequacy to save himself, about Christ as the only way of salvation, the only One who can make a person righteous (“Kindred Spirit,” a quarterly publication of Dallas Seminary, Summer 1989, p. 5). (source)
    ___________________
    
    You say there are no conditions for forgiveness. There are – and Christ met them all! I’ll ask again the question yet unanswered: Name one person who received forgiveness from Christ during His earthly ministry who confessed their sins and repented to Him first.
    
    And you did not deal with the Scriptures that indeed do say that the sins of the whole world were dealt with at the Cross. Forgiveness makes salvation possible, but does not mean that all are saved. Clearly Scripture tells us that we need to respond to the Work of Christ – not just the forgiveness aspect, but also the gift of Righteousness and New Life that Christ makes possible through His Resurrection. Study out the Perfect High Priesthood of Christ and see how those in Christ are completely and utterly secure in His care. A good place to start is here: The Wonder of our Great High Priest
    
    You wrote this: “You can’t have it both ways. Either all sin is forgiven, and hence universalism, or all sin is paid for, but not forgiven until the terms are met.”
    
    Your assertion is flawed. Either all sin was dealt with at the Cross or it wasn’t. If it wasn’t, then what has to still happen? God is clear that Christ is not coming back to do more work on a cross. If that’s true, then your perception of what’s required for salvation, and what constitutes salvation need to be re-examined. I embedded a link to a teaching in my previous comment, maybe you missed it. It details quite thoroughly the issue of forgiveness and its relationship to salvation: Why Forgiveness is Necessary That teaching is part of a series called Understanding Forgiveness.
    
    Do believers need to repent of their sins? Yep. It’s always a good idea to change one’s mind about sinning. But repenting isn’t to get forgiven; that feat was accomplished at the Cross. It’s a done deal. Repentance for the believer has to do with the renewing of the mind (think Rom. 12:1-2).
    
    For my views on Calvinism, check out this post I recently made on a forum.
  - toddott, on February 28, 2014 at 2:46 am said:
    
    Truth?preacher,
    “God was in christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting mens sins against them.” The Law was a barrier that kept us from a holy God. The Law was put in place by God to condemn all men. God bound all men over to disobedience so that He could have mercy on them all. He put the Law in place to show us our need for His grace, His Life. (Grace so so much more than “unmerited favor.” Grace is the essence of Who He is. Grace is God being and doing in us what we can’t be or do ourselves. It is God being our life and living His Life in us lived in us and through us.) He abolished the Law “in His flesh.” He is the embodiment of the Law, the substance of the shadow. When he died, the Law died. The barrier of the Law that stood against us and opposed us has been removed so that now we can “be reconciled…He Who knew no sin was made sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” This is not universalism. Forgiveness does not equal salvation. The condition for salvation is to be found “in Him.”
    
    Your comment ” Why would you think believers don’t need to repent of sins?” shows a misunderstanding of what repentance is. Repentance is not “turning from sin.” Being reconciled to God, coming into the Light, is repentance. And in that reconciliation we are made righteous. We are made a new creation. ALL sin, past, present and future is gone, cast into the deepest sea, separated from us as far as the east is from the west, and we become the righteousness of God.
    
    Sin is part of the old nature, the old Adam that was crucified with Christ. We have been raised to new life in Christ and have His nature. No need to “repent of sins,” only reckon ourselves dead to sin and live according to our new nature. In the words of Ellis:
    
    “To be holy is to partake of His wholeness; it is to stop acting broken (because in Him we are not broken) and to allow Him to express His whole and beautiful life through us. The challenge is that being holy is a new experience for us. As sinners, holiness was totally alien to us. That old lifestyle was characterized by brokenness and hurt. Now that we are in Him we have to learn to walk in our new and God-given identity.”
    
    THAT is truth, preacher.
  - Truth Preacher, on February 27, 2014 at 7:28 pm said:
    
    Also, I read the article by Ellis. Forgive me for bluntness, but it is unbiblical trash. Not even an iota of a chance what he said is Scriptural. I tire of such people. They are not sound, they don’t know the God nor His doctrines. Such people are guilty of idolatry. They create a weak “god” to suit their sins and what they would like the gospel to be.
    
    I mean really, this man’s definition of holiness is PURE PYSCHOBABBLE!
    
    I will take any holiness preacher over 100 like him any day! Give me Wesley and the Methodists, who revived Christianity in England and saved that nation from a revolution because they Methodists were SO SALTY, and SO FULL OF LIGHT! They were HOLY, and no one could deny it
  - JGIG, on February 27, 2014 at 9:22 pm said:
    
    Ya know, you said a lot about Ellis’ post without addressing even one of his points. I’ll just leave my comment at that and repost a link to his article so the reader can take a look for themselves:
    
    “Practical Holiness” – Your Fast-Track for Setting Aside Grace…
  - Truth Preacher, on March 1, 2014 at 9:42 am said:
    
    In this exchange, this is the only post where a “reply” is offered. I don’t know why blogs do this. So I will respond to todott:
    
    Don’t tell me what the “truth” is without Scripture. Ellis definition of holiness is not just FALSE but NONSENSE. Show me from the Bible that your definition is true. You can’t. You false-grace peddlers like to pontification without challenge. You think that what you think is infallible truth, but it is preposterous error.
    
    Sanctification, holiness, redemption, justification, repentance, adoption, are all defined in Scripture for us. What false-grace peddlers do IS REDEFINE THE TERMS TO SUIT THEIR FANCY, and then argue from those LIES as if they are right. It is all ROTTEN.
    
    For example, I will SHOW YOU FROM SCRIPTURE WHAT REPENTANCE LOOKS LIKE:
    
    Paul said Christ said to him:
    
    Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
    Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
    Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and TO TURN THEM FROM DARKNESS to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    
    Notice Paul’s commission is to TURN PEOPLE AWAY FROM darkness. That is repentance. See:
    
    Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    
    Now notice, John said they had to not only repent, but manifest FRUITS that SHOW repentance! This is what PREPARES THE WAY FOR THE KING OF GLORY TO COME IN!
    
    And like the Pharisees. you say you have God as your father, and therefore don’t need to repent and show fruits of it. PREPOSTEROUS. Now before you pretend John’s teaching doesn’t apply to us, HEAR THE APOSTLE PAUL:
    
    Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
    Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
    
    So we see Paul’s message was REPENTANCE TOWARDS GOD, and then FAITH in Christ. Did Paul expect FRUIT OF REPENTANCE? Or was it merely “a change of mind”? Sorry, that definition is FALSE, as I will show:
    
    Act 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
    Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, AND DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE.
    
    Ahah. Now we see that repentance is FAR MORE than a “change of mind”. People who teach that are false teachers. BRING FORTH THE FRUITS of repentance, or I won’t believe you are converted to Christ.
    
    And what does repentance look like? Paul rebuked the Corinthians for their sins and errors, and THEY REPENTED! Yes, Christians are to repent. and THOROUGHLY. Notice what Paul says:
    
    2Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
    
    2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
    
    2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
    
    2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
    
    Look at that CAREFULLY! Does this sound like a mere “change of mind”? No! There is SORROW! Paul sorrowed for sending a harsh letter! He called that REPENTANCE! Then he describes their repentance, and it is a GODLY SORROW which leads to salvation! How important is that????
    
    Look at the FRUITS of this repentance:
    1-godly sorrow
    2-carefulness
    3-they cleared themselves of error by making things right with God and others
    4-they became indignant about sin, and started to hate it in themselves and others. They EOCMMUNICATED the unrepentance fornicator in their midst. They saw his sin as vile and became indignant, rather than “tolerant” and pretend “loving”
    5-They became FEARFUL! Yes, the FEAR OF THE LORD gripped them. It is a beautiful PROOF of repentance when one fears God
    6-Vehement desire–they not had a POWERFUL FIREY URGE to live holy, and purge the leaven out of their church!
    7-ZEAL. They now had the FRUIT OF ZEAL to obey God in all things.
    8-REVENGE. What does that mean???? It refers to DEALING WITH SIN IN THAT BODY. They “avenged” God in the sense that they threw out unrepentant sinners. Read 1 cor 5 where Paul commands them to do this
    
    So then, not only MUST BELIEVERS REPENT, as we see above, BUT, we also learn WHAT REPENTANCE IS. Later in the epistle, Paul says to some who had still not repented, that he was heading their way and would deal with them if he finds some in Corinth who have not repented of their sins. Note:
    
    2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
    2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
    
    Now then, I can write another much more, but I have PROVEN MY CASE BEYOND ALL DOUBT. False-grace peddlers DON’T KNOW what repentance is, they preach a FALSE DEFINITION OF IT, and they LYINGLY TEACH believes don’t have to repent. These men are LIARS, plain and simple. Why would ANY OF YOU listen to such heretics? After what I posted, if you deny these things, it reveals SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU. I can show you that you DON’T KNOW WHAT GRACE IS EITHER. I can show you that you DON’T KNOW what the “gospel of grace” I either, you just SAY over and over that you do, but you don’t. If you don’t know what repentance is, then you surely don’t know what grace is!
  - JGIG, on March 4, 2014 at 8:41 pm said:
    
    You have proven nothing. You failed to define repent or repentance even one time. You simply forced meanings into Scriptures you pulled out of context to attempt to make your point.
    
    And Grace preachers don’t teach that believers don’t need to repent; they do – repentance is key to the renewing of the mind and the maturity of the believer (Rom. 12:1-2).
    
    Your last paragraph is especially uplifting; I like how you put how if we don’t agree with YOU that there is something wrong with US. (Note sarcasm)
    
    Funny you would choose this verse, “. . . lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults . . .”
  - toddott, on March 4, 2014 at 11:24 pm said:
    
    Truth?Preacher,
    In the Garden of Eden were two trees. One tree, the Tree of life represents grace. This Tree bears the fruit of the Spirt and eternal life. The other tree, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the Law, whose fruit is a curse and death. The Law can never bring Life. it can ONLY bring a knowledge of good and evil. It can’t change the heart, but ONLY produce and induces rebellion in our hearts. It stirs up the Old Man Adam. The command “Do not covet,” produces in us every covetous desire. The Law was given ONLY to show us our utter inability the obey God and live righteously (which was proven by Adam and Eve eating of the Tree.)
    
    Why does the Law produce rebellion? Because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to love a God Who expects us to live up to a standard. We love ONLY to the degree that we know we are loved and accepted AS WE ARE. “We love because He first loved us.” “He who is forgiven much, loves much.”
    
    Our sins, past, present and future, have been wiped out, UNCONDITIONALLY. The penalty for eating from the Tree has been paid once and for all. It is this UNCONDITIONAL love and forgiveness that produce love in us. And we love in proportion to how much we have been forgiven.
    
    If there are any conditions or expectations attached to grace, then it is no longer grace. Grace is a gift. If it is not free, it is not a gift. This is what you don’t seem to understand. We love God precisely because there are no conditions or expectations, because we have been forgiven much! That love however, is not our own love. It is God’s love, His Spirit poured into our hearts, overflowing to the world. And because His Spirit lives in us, we are “partakers of his diving nature.” Our hearts are changed, our thoughts, our desires and attitudes and consequently, our actions are changed.
    
    The problem with the Church today is that they don’t know the radical message of God’s grace. It doesn’t make sense to the humanist mind. The natural man cannot understand the things of God. They are diametrically opposed to one another. (Those who think themselves wise are really just fools, while those who know they are fools, are truly wise. Those who are most aware of their sins are the greatest saints, while those who think they’re not so bad are the greatest sinners. Those who think they are humble are actually proud and those who know they are proud are actually humble. Those who believe they are free are actually enchained, but those who see their chains are set free. We must humble ourselves to be exalted, crucify ourselves to live, and serve in order to be a leader.) You seem to think that all of us who preach the true grace of God (what you call “cheap grace”) are murderers, liars and fornicators.
    
    It appears to me that by your judgement, hypocrisy, wrath and vehemence you know little about God’s love and grace. You may be obeying the outward requirements of the Law, as the Pharisees did, but like the Pharisees you condemn those who actually know the grace of the God who eats with sinners and tax collectors. You can’t mix Law and Grace. You have obviously chosen Law, hence your judgement and condemnation.
    
    You can call it “cheap grace” but we who have been changed by it understand its value. It was paid for on the Cross.
    
    We don’t need to prove anything to you. All we want to do is share the Good News.
    
    p.s.
    
    You said:
    “Don’t tell me what the “truth” is without Scripture. Ellis definition of holiness is not just FALSE but NONSENSE. Show me from the Bible that your definition is true. You can’t. ”
    
    In response to:
    “To be holy is to partake of His wholeness; it is to stop acting broken (because in Him we are not broken) and to allow Him to express His whole and beautiful life through us. The challenge is that being holy is a new experience for us. As sinners, holiness was totally alien to us. That old lifestyle was characterized by brokenness and hurt. Now that we are in Him we have to learn to walk in our new and God-given identity.”
    
    I say:
    Did I ever say that he was giving a DEFINITION of holiness? No, I did not. Holiness means to be set apart. Partaking of God’s wholeness and letting His Life be expressed through us is a characteristic of holiness. “For me to live is Christ.” Being mature is being filled to the full measure of Christ, being filled with the fulness of his Spirit. We are a New Creation in Christ, partakers of His divine nature. When we were sinners, we knew nothing of holiness. Now that we are in Him, we must learn to walk in the Spirit, by putting off the flesh, the Old Adamic nature. Repentance (metanoia: change of mind) is not an action, it is an INTENTION to change from wanting to sin to not wanting to sin. Repentance is impossible without grace. Grace produces in us love for God and a desire to obey him. Grace also produces in us the power to obey.
    
    Show me in the Bible where the above ISN’T true. You can’t.
  - cowb0y77, on February 27, 2014 at 8:10 am said:
    
    I’ll have to check out that preacher, never heard of him. Thanks “truth preacher”!
  - Rick Owen, on February 27, 2014 at 2:22 pm said:
    
    Regarding your previous comment about JGIG: I enjoy this blog, just as I enjoy Dr. Brown’s writings. I believe they are both addressing extremes in the doctrine of Grace. I have seen both ends of the spectrum myself. JGIG is just trying to defend grace as it is, plain and simple. This website on the HRM is very much welcome. I lived in Jerusalem for seven years, and encountered many HRMers, and even met a few of the more popular ones. Those that follow these false teachers begin to doubt that they are born again, even as those who follow the other extreme begin to doubt that they can sin.
    
    JGIG is right that we should not keep silent about this movement. Christ had zero problem standing up and addressing the religious leaders of that era. And yet you have a valid point as well–we need to address other believers, and even non-believers properly. One of the HRMers I met was a false teacher by the name of Don Esposito. His moral virtue was without question. He was sincere, earnest, honest, and helpful. He had no trace of greed or superficiality about him at all. Anyone attacking his character would reveal only their own ignorance, and boil my Celtic (Japhethitic, tvm) blood. HOWEVER, he was severely lacking intellectual virtue, being blinded by his “lust” for righteousness. One of his books, “the Great Falling Away,” averages about 3 errors a page. This was a man so intent on being righteous in order to be approved by God that he could not comprehend even the simplest logic (though he used that word a lot). I wish all HRMers were that nice, but alas, ’tis not so. Rudeness is too universal.
  - cowb0y77, on February 27, 2014 at 4:54 pm said:
    
    Very true. I think we can all learn things from each other, or take away things at least. I was secular and in my midst of trying to disprove God exists after dabbling in about 6 eastern religions I started coming to the conclusion God does exists and His name is YHWH and his Sons name is Yeshua (Jesus or what ever people call them in their tongue) and the Bible is real. So I don’t like it when I hear, “you’re doing it wrong this is right”, well if it is I’m sure God will reveal it in His timing. I’m a product of that. In the mean time, many people like me that were at their lowest found Jesus, they don’t need to hear they’re doing it wrong especially when they are just coming to faith. Show them, “By there fruits you shall know them” Matt 7:16. What made me sold was I saw someone have something that I wanted, they had a peace about themselves. Of course my testimony is much great then that, but not going to post it all. But it honestly kills me inside to see the pointing of fingers. I don’t need to put someone down to build my beliefs up and that’s not a slide to anyone just saying we shouldn’t do that either – like anyone. We’re brothers and sisters, we’re going to have to learn to get along. I can agree with what you are saying entirely, there are people on both sides that have misunderstandings and I’m sure I fit in the mix along the way too. I’m still learning, hopefully everyone is. I don’t mind being proven wrong. I wasn’t born into this faith, I’ve searched many faiths in my life. My quest is to gain a deeper understanding about what I believe, live it and not be afraid to tweak along the way. Hopefully I’m not in a minority and hopefully what we are doing is bearing fruit otherwise there needs to be a self evaluation. I’m sure if I could learn just half of what I don’t know or what hasn’t been revealed to me, I would be very smart and have a better understanding. With that said, I do take studying my faith, evaluating it, and learning very serious. I mean my faith is my life, but I don’t change people, He does – that takes off quite the burden.
toddott, on February 26, 2014 at 8:18 pm said:

People don’t understand the New Creation, nor do they inderstand grace. We are partakers of the Divine nature, a new creation in Christ. Only those who are totally free from all restrains can be who they are made to be. The Law is a yoke of bondage. Through the Law God has bound all men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all. The Law can do two things. It can bring discouragement to those who know they can never follow it, or it can bring pride and self exaltation to those who think they can. BOTH of these keep us from living a life of love, which is a fulfillment of the Law. Both are SELF focused.

He who is forgiven much loves much. Only those who believe that God loves and accepts us no matter what we do can love God in return. If there is one iota of expectation or condition in love, then it isn’t love. Law and love CANNOT be mixed.

Now this is not a license to sin because that kind of UNCONDITIONAL love produces love in us. “We love because He first loved us.” We are free from the bondage to the Law so that now we can live according to the Spirit, a life of love, which is our new nature. Sin is NO LONGER our nature since we have been born of God. It is now our nature to love. And “he who loves fulfills the Law.”

Focusing on ourselves and the Law keeps us from seeing the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do (Ephesians).

Those who believe they must follow the Law believe that by doing so, they are loving God. That is the farthest thing from the truth. We love God by loving others. Love is others-focused.

We were once slaves to unrighteousness because we had Adam’s sin nature. Now we are slaves to righteousness because we have the nature of God. Those who are born of God can do nothing else but live in love.

Law is about us and what we do and brings glory to ourselves. Grace is ALL God, living His life in us and loving others through us, bringing glory to Himself.

The reason people have a problem with hyper grace is because it doesn’t make sense to the human mind. But this is one of God’s many paradoxes. And it is human nature to want to justify ourselves. All religion is about Law.

God produces love and righteousness in us by freeing us from all requirements and expectations. The righteousness of the Law is our own righteousness. The righteousness produced by grace is God’s righteousness.

Children need rules to teach them how to relate to others. When we grow up we “put away childish things.” A loving Father gives His children rules, but a loving Husband never gives rules to His Wife. Those who have said “yes” to Jesus’ marriage proposal have no need for rules because we know by nature what our Husband desires. His desire is that we rest (sabbath) and abide in His love. And it is in that resting and abiding that we bear the fruit of righteousness. That fruit is love, the fulfillment of the Law. The ONLY fruit the Law can produce is DEATH.

The purpose of the Law is to show us our need for grace, to point us to the Christ. The Law produces death in us, so that we may run to Christ to find Life. The Law is a shadow, Christ the substance. Light has come into the world. Those who live in the Light no longer live in the shadow. Those who are in Christ are free from Law, for the Law is made for the unrighteous, those who have Adam’s nature. The Law will not pass away until heaven and earth pass away because, until that time, there will always be those who need to be pointed to the Saviour.

Sadly, most will never understand this good news of God’s abounding (hyper) grace and will continue to try to find righteousness through the Law. Over the past few decades there has been an exponential increase in “law-keeping.”

Is it a return to Hebrew roots, or is it a falling away from grace, the apostacy Paul warned us about? Hmmm.

Reply
- toddott, on February 26, 2014 at 8:39 pm said:
  
  p.s. There will always be those who turn grace into a license to sin, but the problem isn’t with grace. The problem is in the hearts of those individuals. But Law can never change a person’s heart. Law can never produces love. It can ONLY produce rebellion.
  
  “But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the Law, sin was dead” (Romans 7).
  
  Jesus destroyed sin in us, put it to death, by putting to death the Law, nailing it to the Cross. Now apart from the Law, sin has no power, and we are FREE to live according to our new nature.
  
  Resurrect the Law and sin springs to life.
  
  Reply
  - JGIG, on February 26, 2014 at 9:51 pm said:
    
    Amen, toddott!
  - Jen, on April 8, 2014 at 10:56 am said:
    
    If there are no laws, then there is no such thing as sin. What are you sinning aganist if there are no laws? “And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.” Luke 16:17 If you are reading this, then I assume the earth has not passed away.
    
    We all need to stop looking to man and start looking to the Holy Spirit. Stop looking for a religion, a group, a doctrine, a leader- and open up your Bible. The Bible is one book- it has a beginning and an end. You don’t start in the middle of the book and call it a day. Jesus said FEW will find the way to eternal life. Ever wonder why that is?
  - JGIG, on April 11, 2014 at 12:26 pm said:
    
    Ah. Have any of the jots and tittles failed?
    
    Are there still animal sacrifices?
    
    Temple rituals?
    
    A functioning Levitical Priesthood?
    
    Yes?
    
    No?
    
    If the only criteria for ANY jots of tittles to fail was ONLY that heaven and earth had to pass, then we have a problem, because either Scripture is wrong (as the above examples have obviously ceased), or there was another possibility for jots and tittles to pass . . .
    
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (from Mt. 5)
    
    There was another criteria listed there – fulfillment.
    
    What did Christ say about it?
    
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (from Mt. 5)
    
    Did He or didn’t He?
    
    Interesting thing about that word ‘fail’ in the Greek . . . check out the meanings:
    
    1.to descend from a higher place to a lower
    . . . 1.to fall (either from or upon)
    . . . . . 1.to be thrust down
    . . . 2.metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation
    2.to descend from an erect to a prostrate position
    . . . 1.to fall down
    . . . . . 1.to be prostrated, fall prostrate
    . . . . . 2.of those overcome by terror or astonishment or grief or under the attack of an evil spirit or of falling dead suddenly
    . . . . . 3.the dismemberment of a corpse by decay
    . . . . . 4.to prostrate one’s self
    . . . . . 5.used of suppliants and persons rendering homage or worship to one
    . . . . . 6.to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost
    . . . . . 7.to fall down, fall into ruin: of buildings, walls etc.
    . . . 2.to be cast down from a state of prosperity
    . . . . . 1.to fall from a state of uprightness
    . . . . . 2.to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease
    . . . . . . . 1.of virtues
    . . . . . 3.to lose authority, no longer have force
    . . . . . . . 1.of sayings, precepts, etc.
    . . . . . 4.to be removed from power by death
    . . . . . 5.to fail of participating in, miss a share in
    
    Obsolescence pretty much sums up the above, and the Law was rendered obsolete in Christ (Heb. chapters 7-10).
    
    You say we need to start looking to the Holy Spirit. I totally agree!
    
    If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. (from Gal. 5)
    
    -JGIG
  - toddott, on April 12, 2014 at 5:55 am said:
    
    There is a Law. It is called, among other names, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, the Law of Christ, the Law of Love the Royal Law of Love. This Law has set me free from the Law of Moses, otherwise known as the Law of sin and death. The Law is made for the unrighteous, but I am not unrighteous because I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ. I have been crucified with Christ and am dead to the Law and therefore dead to sin. It has no power
    
    Jesus stood with Moses and Elijah (“the Law and the prophets”). Suddenly, Moses and Elijah disappeared and the Father spoke from Heaven, “This is My Son with Whom I am well pleased. LISTEN TO HIM.”
    
    What you don’t seem to understand is that the Law is one. Break one aspect of it and you break all of it. Unless you obey the entire Law, every jot and tittle, you break it all. And considering the fact that since the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, it is now impossible to obey the Law. God made a better way, a new and living way.
    
    Those who don’t understand grace don’t understand what God has done for us. God created all things to live according to their respective natures. A cow chews the cud because it is in its nature to chew the cud. It can’t do otherwise. Sinners sin because it is their nature to sin. They can’t do otherwise. God has given us a new nature, His divine nature. Since He is love, love is our new nature. God has set us free from the Law in order that we are free to live by this new nature, which ironically fulfills the entire Law from which we were released. The Law is a prison that keeps us self-focused. In the Law of Love we are free to love, no longer wasting our time and efforts on the flesh. We can rest from our works. Walk by the Spirit (live and rest and abide in Christ’s love) and you won’t fulfill the desires of the flesh.
    
    Grace is not a license to sin, but rather the very means by which we are able to obey. One of the great paradoxes of God is that we can only obey God, by being freed from all Law. God bound all over to disobedience by giving us a Law that we could never obey, for the very purpose of revealing His love to us, so that we can love others in response. The goal of the Law was not obedience to a list of rules. The goal of the Law was to reveal the Love of God. And we love because He first loved us. And that love fulfills the Law of Christ.
    
    And in answer to your question “What are you sinning against if there are no laws?”…the Law of Love. A Husband doesn’t give His wife a list of rules to obey. Unfaithfulness is not a violation of laws. It is a violation of love. “Everything that is not of faithfulness (faith and faithfulness are the same word in Hebrew and Greek) is sin.” It is for this very reason that we are saved, not by laws, but by grace through faithfulness.
Blinksleep, on February 27, 2014 at 9:22 am said:

Letting go and letting Love have the reins is truly terrifying. We wouldn’t want anything bad to happen now would we. ;)

Reply
Rick Owen, on March 5, 2014 at 7:07 am said:

Blink’s post reminded me of a demonic rephrasing of a scriptural principle. I’m not saying that Blink’s statement is such, but it reminded me of it, and it illustrates the difference of the two positions stated here. The written word of God says “Perfect love casteth out all fear.” The “Course in Miracles,” a demonic book channeled through a New Ager, states “Love is letting go of fear.” It claims these two statements are one and the same. In fact, not only are they not the same, they are polar opposites. The demonic version is based on works: you cannot know love unless you let go of your fear–the more you let go of fear, the more you experience love. BUT God is actually saying the exact opposite: you can’t let go of fear unless you have love. Love comes in like a hero and casts out the fear-therefore, let love in.

Likewise, the world says, “if you open (free) your mind, you will know the truth.” BUT God says “know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Religion says “you must do righteous works to be well-pleasing unto the Lord.” BUT the Lord says that you must already have His approval do works that are well-pleasing to Him, or else it’s “depart from Me, for I never knew you.”

The Law connects various sins to various consequences. It makes us aware of sin–it’s a revelation of truth. Everything it declares to be a sin was already a sin from the beginning, which it is clarifying and codifying. As part of the revelation of God’s standard of holiness, there is also the revelation of what we deserve as sinners. The Sabbatical and Kosher parts of the Law were to set apart Israel as a nation of priests to minister to the nations of the world-the Levitical priesthood. Their job was that of lawyers–reminding us of the King’s will, and the consequences of rebellion–what we DESERVE.

But while God’s Law concerns what we deserve, God’s Love concerns what we NEED. And that would be His unmerited favor–and the gifts and callings He has given us, that we might be “happy,” in the old sense of the word–which was “doing what one is made to do, wisely and well.”

One equivocation to watch for: Salvation is something we have, and must work out–while Atonement is something Christ did for us, and by accepting His atonement for our sins, past, present and future, we “sign on” to the New Covenant. Along the way, we sin and stumble, but we carry on with His help, going further up and further in. So while yes, we ARE sealed in Him, we are also still sinners, and will be convicted of sin when we do so, but not condemned.

Reply
- JGIG, on March 8, 2014 at 5:32 am said:
  
  Great post, Rick, though I’ll disagree with you on the last sentence. Conviction of sin for the believer is not from God; to be convicted of something means to be found guilty, and that would require judgement (condemnation). Conviction and condemnation go hand in hand. God will not judge sins already judged in Christ. With that realization, believers walk in thankfulness for the gift of righteousness in Christ. When we sin, we know it, and should walk in thankfulness for who we are in Christ – that in Christ, God no longer holds our sins against us (2 Cor. 5). We also know from the Scriptures that sinning is destructive and distracting . . . but focusing on sin keeps the focus on sin. We need to keep our focus on Christ and who we are in Him. A former bum is less likely to go dumpster-diving when they understand that they’re now adopted by the King and are welcome at His Table. Thankfully our King is patient, and His Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness.
  
  Reply
  - lonowen, on March 8, 2014 at 1:14 pm said:
    
    LOL, I didn’t mean “conviction” in a legal sense, but rather that awful nagging sense inside that one has said, is saying, done something, or is doing something wrong. A very minor example: I find myself humming/singing an old Paul McCartney song, and am naggingly “convicted” that the lyrics aren’t very pleasing to God. The song itself seems innocuous, “No More Lonely Nights,” nothing immoral in the lyrics, except the line “you’re my guiding light” and others like it, where the singer’s life is directed by the object of his affections (Linda, his wife). What bothered me was that these things ought only to be said of the Lord. And here is the crux of that lesson: this is breaking the Law! It’s violating the First Commandment! Am I under the Law? No! But even though as a gentile I was never under that school-master, I remembered reading the lesson plan, and a better Guide has taught me since. Which is a distinction here, between the moral and ritual parts of the Law. Firstly, the moral parts are still in the New Covenant. Here’s why: when I’m at school–a private boarding school, for instance, such as Israel was–I have to eat as I’m told, and dress as I’m told. I have to attend classes as I’m told, and am subject to the rules as to what I do with my free time. I am constantly under the rules of that school, and under the scrutiny of the school authorities. Once I’ve graduated, I’m no longer subject to any of that, even they call me up and demand I show up for class, or try to assign me another essay. But the essence of what I’ve learned–all the math and English, all the history and health, is forever with me. Now I wasn’t taught God’s way by a school-master. I’m a Gentile. I came by a different route. The HRM (not Messianic Jews that I’ve known) demand I go to vocational school and earn a degree, and continue attending classes and wearing the school uniform while I’m working for the LORD. God simply wants to keep me hired, and pay me the same wage as someone who has, no matter how late in the day it is. He’d love to hire the HRM as well, so they could join the Messianic Jews and the gentiles in doing His work, but they’re too busy working on a master’s degree. Maybe after that. I suspect, though, their thesis is be highly questionable, and they’ll be in school for quite some time yet. Meanwhile, I’m living out what I’m learning.
  - JGIG, on March 8, 2014 at 2:37 pm said:
    
    Understood. Definitions of terms is really important, as you well know. Conviction has been re-defined by churchianity to be a ‘good thing’, when it is in fact that which indicates guilt. We’re not talking indictment, but conviction. Guilt has been assigned and punishment is forthcoming. In Christ, we stand free of conviction, for the sentence for our transgressions has already been meted out – on Christ. A just God will not ‘convict’ His adopted for sins already bled and died for. The only Scripture talking about the Holy Spirit and the conviction of sins indicates that the Holy Spirit convicts UNbelievers of sin, not believers:
    
    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. (from Jn. 16)
    
    He convicts of sin, those who do not believe in Him, of righteousness, speaking to His disciples – those who do believe in Him, of judgment because the ruler of this world is judged (see also Col. 2:15).
    
    The Holy Spirit ‘convicts’ the believer of their righteousness in Christ – who they are in Christ – ever pointing to Christ, not to sin! Read on further in John 16, right after vs. 7-11:
    
    12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14
    
    >>> He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. <<<
    
    He declares the Righteousness of God in Christ to you!
    
    I hear where you're coming from, but 2 Cor. 3 squarely puts all of the Law in the obsolete column in light of the Work of Christ, including those parts which were engraved on stone (known as the ‘moral law’):
    
    Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. 3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
    
    4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
    
    7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
    
    12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
    
    Love, not Law is what guides us now, and love is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 13:8-10). The ‘Moral Law’ that many believers believe still binds them is upheld by love, not by ‘obedience’ to it. If we are focusing on obeying Law (focusing on Law), the Scriptures say that the Law stirs up sin. If we are loving one another, we are not stealing, murdering, dishonoring, etc. We love God and others because He first loved us (1 Jn. 4), and abiding in Christ, He is our Sabbath Rest (Heb. 4). It’s about Fruit produced by His Spirit, not about us being aware of and being in obedience to laws. Obedience is a wonderful outflow of His Fruit, and that by focusing on Him and who we are in Him. And the obedience that flows from love is vastly superior in scope and influence than is obedience to law.
    
    One more thing that God has been showing me is that we’re not so much ‘servants’ or ‘students’ in Christ, but ‘sons and daughters’, the adopted of God – “He is not ashamed to call us brothers (and sisters)” – Hebrews 2. As our Father (a term rarely used for God under the Law), God uses Grace to teach us to say no to ungodliness, not Law. And He is patient as we learn . . . \o/