12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law ‘Keepers’ Crazy

November 2010
S	M	T	W	T	F	S
« Oct		Dec »
	1	2	3	4	5	6
7	8	9	10	11	12	13
14	15	16	17	18	19	20
21	22	23	24	25	26	27
28	29	30

40 Responses

Jennifer, on November 5, 2010 at 5:02 pm said:

This couldn’t have come at a more appropriate time in my life.. thank you so much for writing this!

Reply
Terry, on November 7, 2010 at 8:50 am said:

Thank you for the wonderfull TRUTH in GOD’S WORD.

Reply
Israel, on November 9, 2010 at 2:25 am said:

Concerning #1, The “chadasha” of “Brit Chadasha” New Covenant is related to the “chodesh” of “Rosh Chodesh” New Moon. Tell me, whenever there is a New Moon, do we get a totally brand new one, or is it the same moon renewed? Also, the term “new covenant” as relating to a specific section of scripture outside of the Tanakh wasn’t invented until Marcion did so.

Concerning #2, If so, then Paul would have been a false prophet according to the standard of Deut 12:32-13:5 or Deut 13:1-6(depending on which bible you use). By giving precedence to a miracle worker as evidence of the truth of his message, or of any of his students, by claims of direct revelation or even a miracle, even if it contradicts scripture that came before, is no different than a Mormon missionary who asks the same treatment of his Book of Mormon, or of the Muslim who holds to his Koran. In order to maintain the same standard one judges the truth of Matt-Rev as one would any other body of scripture, one is forced to either believe Paul is a false prophet according to Deut, or else is greatly misunderstood, as Peter himself was apt to write “the things he writes are hard to understand and unlearned men distort his writings as they do the other scriptures.”

Concerning #3, If Torah is simply ink on parchment, then you are correct. But if Torah is as you say, “representative of God’s character and expectations” then what better representative of G-d’s “character and expectations” is Jesus Christ, the only one who is perfect according to the “character and expectations” of G-d – and remains so?

Concerning #4, weren’t the first set of tablets broken? Weren’t the new set of tablets written with the content of the first? If there is ever a pinnacle teaching in Torah about the difference between the old and new covenant, it is that the first set of tablets were broken because of sin, the second set of tablets were kept because of G-d’s grace.

Concerning #5, You won’t get any objection from me here. The Torah serves two functions, one to one person, one to another. To the unbeliever, it only serves to condemn. To the believer, it only serves to instruct in right living.

Concerning #6, One can test whether or not they are listening to the Holy Spirit as they would any other spirit – by the Word of G-d. If the Torah tells you to do something contrary to Torah, for example, then according to Deut 13, you are not listening to the Holy Spirit, but rather are being tested by G-d to see whether or not you will obey Him or follow after a false spirit.

Concerning #7, you are absolutely correct. a covenant community can not be ruled by anarchy. Torah makes it clear the responsibility of the Jewish community is to establish courts of law, battai din, to settle disputes. Such orthodox Jewish battai din do in fact exist, and I happen to be privy to live under one such court composed of orthodox Jewish rabbis who are themselves believers in Messiah. If your concern is about the enforcement of capital punishment, bear in mind that it would be a transgression against Torah itself to engage in viglante justice. There are many requirements that must be met, and many of the most important ones can’t be met yet do to circumstances under G-d’s sovereign control. Of course, the same circumcstances prevailed in the Babylonian exile too. Only when G-d allows circumstances to come together through the obedience of His people, will our “judges be restored as in earlier times, and our counselors at at the Beginning.”

Concerning #8, such tragic proponents for a particular view also exist in traditional Christianity, counter-missionary Judaism, and Islam. Messianic Judaism is not immune, and seeing as how a vast number of those claiming to be Messianic Jews come from Christianity, many forget to leave their “Protestant” baggage behind and still wind up protesting everything, often protesting and berating the very people they are trying to reach. Mashiach I’m sure, you would agree would not act like that. The Holy Spirit reaches people right where they are – not where they will be years from now. To one He is working on them to simply stay faithful to his wife. To another, learning how to keep a kosher kitchen and how it relates to our relationship with Messiah. As you said, you will know them by their fruits. G-d is bigger than orchard of trees producing nuts, not fruit. Don’t dismiss what G-d is doing in your life for the nuts you find yourself surrounded with.

Concerning #9, the term “under law” is defined according to Torah itself. Deut 29. It means to be literally under the curse of the law. To those under the law, one’s only access to G-d is through the law. To those no longer condemned by the law, but are rather clothed in the righteousness of Christ, their relationship with G-d is obviously only through Christ and his perfect merit. It is this merit of His that allows us to receive His inheritance of eternal life, for the Torah promises life for the one who keeps it – and Messiah keeps it for us! This promise is only valid because it is already defined by the Torah in the first place. Remove the Torah as being valid, and you essentially remove the promise of eternal life – from Him and from all of us as a result! The promise of eternal life can can only be defined according to the Torah (or else its an addition to Torah and would be therefore a false teaching), for it is by the Torah – the Word of G-d, that your promise of eternal life is even valid through the merit of Christ in the first place. You have no document certifying His inheritance otherwise! And if He has no legal inheritance, he has nothing of it to give to us. Therefore the Torah and its promises remain valid, forever, or else our eternal life is not really going to be all that eternal.

Concerning #10, there is within Judaism a method of interpretation called PaRDeS – four levels of understanding and applying the Holy text as G-d communicated it for our instruction, not one jot or tittle superfluous or meaningless in G-d’s grand design of His Book. Each level of understanding has accompanying rules of logic associated with them that students take years to master. Most MJs are only aware of a few, if any at all of the Jewish rules of hermeneutics; let alone most seminary trained pastors. Yet Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and all the other writers of the books of Matt-Rev employed the use of those rules to prove the case they were making in their writings, thus not adding anything to the scriptures that came before other than a witness of the things that occurred. We would be foolish not to learn what it is they too would have learned to use as their method of scriptural exegesis, which formed the core of their teaching and instruction as led by the Holy Spirit.

Concerning #11, there is no #11 in your list.

Concerning #12, The gospel is simple. If you know where to look. Everything in the Torah is about Messiah and/or our relationship to him, or other’s relationship to him. Often what people lack is foundation. Serious foundation. And this is foundation: the Torah is all about Messiah, all about Jesus. Nothing lacking. Nothing superficial. All of it is about Him. Moses truly did write about Him. The Pharisees did truly seek eternal life in what Moses wrote, but some never arrived at what Moses was writing about. G-d’s Word is not meant to be studied only superficially, or accepted rebelliously, or while protesting what others are doing. I can certainly attest to the fact that if one neglects to learn what G-d has to say about the gospel in the Torah, they essentially set themselves up for believing every wind of doctrine some teacher comes by concerning how to understand Matt-Rev, which are themselves couched in the knowledge of Torah, and which never leave its foundation, and are just as fixed to it as the roof is of a great building.

Reply
- JGIG, on November 11, 2010 at 1:11 am said:
  
  Hi Israel – Welcome to JGIG. Your format was easy to follow, so I will:
  
  Concerning #1 – The argument you raise is a renewed one, ha. The language of the Scriptures stands against your position. See Hebrew Roots Movement – New Covenant or “Renewed” Covenant?
  
  As for the concept of the New Covenant originating with Marcion, consider the words of Yeshua Messiah Himself in Luke 22:20, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
  
  Concerning #2 – If one is viewing everything in Scripture according to Mosaic Covenant Law which was written for a specific people for a specific purpose for a specific season, then I guess you could come to that conclusion – and miss the realities of the Gospel. The Promise of a Redeemer came before Torah, however, and Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of that promise. It is the lens of the Gospel, not the lens of the Law, through which the whole of the Scriptures should be viewed, measured and weighed. Paul does that, and as a result uses the Law properly in light of the completed work of Christ and communicates the relationship that those in Christ have to the Law. In the New Covenant Scriptures, Truth is measured not by an obsolete covenant (Hebrews 8:13), but by Who one says Jesus Christ is (1 John 4).
  
  Concerning #3 – Then I guess I’m right =o). Torah is a written history and law, there is no denying that. Was it representative of God’s character and expectations? Yes. Is also Jesus Christ? Yes, but Jesus Christ is so much more: Colossians 2:9-15 states, “9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.” Torah never claims such a position, nor did God ever give it such a position. Christ alone occupies that position.
  
  Concerning #4 – Um . . . the second set of tablets were not kept. You’ll have to provide some Scripture to back up that assertion.
  
  Concerning #5 – Glad to see you agree with me =o). Tell me, how is it that a people who is without sin in Jesus Christ is still under Law according to Law ‘keeping’ doctrine? . . . Which brings us to #6, which is an extension of #5:
  
  Concerning #6 – Those in Christ are not under the authority of Mosaic Covenant Law. If a believer is not observing Feasts or days or dietary laws, that does not mean that they are following a ‘false spirit’. Those in Christ are no longer under Law. We have died with Christ and have been raised with Him: Romans 6:8-14 says, “8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
  
  “11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
  
  Concerning #7 – Now this I found to be a particularly interesting part of your comment, as you completely ignore the obvious differences in the writings to the Body of Christ concerning leadership structure for the Church. According to your web site’s page titled, “Beit Din”, it is stated that, “The orthodox Jewish believers at JerusalemCouncil.org hope to establish a “Messianic Sanhedrin” – a global Torah academy with the aim of establishing a beit din to be a fully functional orthodox Jewish rabbinical court that will be the first of many reproduced worldwide. It is the goal of the Jerusalem Council vision to establish such a Sanhedrin with the most qualified rabbis of our generation, and we ask that those who are interested in helping us establish this service to consider joining us today and turning this dream into a reality.
  
  It is our hope that the establishment of orthodox Jewish battai din made up of believers will help play a small part in HaShem “restoring our judges as in earliest times and our counselors as at first.” If you can help with this goal, we invite you to join us today!”
  
  Could you kindly show us where in the writings to the Body of Christ the above is modeled for us? You claim that the Jerusalem Council was such a panel of judges, but in reality, they drew their authority from their appointments as Apostles by Jesus Christ, not as a panel of ‘Messianic Sanhedrin’! There is no judging of sin or doling out of consequences by the Jerusalem Council! Acts 15, listed on your website as “considered historical rulings of the former Messianic Sanhedrin, that is, the Jerusalem Council Beit Din” is in reality an historical account of an event in the fledgling Church wherein Jews and Gentiles were learning to live in unity and love toward each other. Further accounts/instructions for governance, for lack of a better word, in the Body of Christ had to do with giftings and talents as given to individuals in the Body such as pastors, teachers, administrators, etc. Ephesians 4:11-16 says, “11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
  
  14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.”
  
  We as the Body of Christ need to walk in the model of 1 Corinthians chapters 12, 13, and 14, recognizing that differences in the Body of Christ in the form of giftings and talents are part of God’s design for the functioning of the Church. The design of the Body of Christ as God has set it up is one of necessary differences, (talents and giftings), rooted and grounded in Christ, with the underlying framework being love. That is a very different model than that given under Mosaic Covenant Law.
  
  All that said, those who claim to be Torah observant simply are not, for many of the reasons stated above. Your website is interesting in that those in your particular stream of thought are making efforts in the area of enforcement of Mosaic Covenant Law, but the reality is that in so doing, you’re denying the reality of the New Covenant system set in place by Jesus Christ Himself.
  
  Concerning #8 – You wrote, “G-d is bigger than [an] orchard of trees producing nuts, not fruit.” LOVE that line, and may have to use it sometime! That said, fruit is not judged by whether it is ‘nutty’ or not, but by whether it lasts or not: In John 15:16-17 Jesus says, “16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.”
  
  There is a Hebrew Christian who writes about this issue in an article entitled, “Do you obey the Feast of Tabernacles?” who lays out the issue really well. In light of the Gospel and the completed work of Christ and His Great Commission to us, do you think God will be concerned with how you did or did not ‘keep’ edicts and regulations, or how you loved others and reached out with the Gospel?
  
  Concerning #9 – You wrote, “Torah promises life for the one who keeps it”. Hmmm . . . can’t find a Scripture for that assertion. Blessings for those who keep it, curses for those who don’t, under the Old Covenant, but no, not life. Jesus Christ said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” For you to say that Torah promises life . . . well, we come back to that ol’ silly doctrine that Yeshua is the Living Torah again. Nope. Not buyin’ it.
  
  Concerning #10 – The statement made in point 10 made by me is this: The hermeneutic (a method or principle of interpretation) used by those teaching HRM/MJ doctrines is fluid.
  
  PaRDeS is used in Judaism – and has mystical roots, thereby disqualifying it for use by believers in Jesus Christ. A description and explanation of PaRDes can be found here at JGIG at “Hebrew Roots Movement – The Use of Midrash”, “Hebrew Roots Movement – The Redefinition of Terms 3 (M-Z)”, and “Doublemindedness in the Hebrew Roots Movement – The Use of Kabbalah and Gematria”.
  
  Your point does nothing to address the issue of fluidity in the interpretive methods used in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism/Netzarim streams of faith. All you’ve done is claim superiority by means of a mystical interpretive vehicle.
  
  Concerning #11 – You wrote, “Concerning #11, there is no #11 in your list.” I looked at your comment and thought, “Well what about that! One of the pitfalls of self proof-reading =o).” Thanks for pointing that out. I did take care of that right away, and have just now been able to respond to the balance of your comment.
  
  Concerning #12 – Your summarizing comment shows how the Law ‘keeping’ community systematically trades the reality of Christ for the shadow of the Law: “I can certainly attest to the fact that if one neglects to learn what G-d has to say about the gospel in the Torah, they essentially set themselves up for believing every wind of doctrine some teacher comes by concerning how to understand Matt-Rev, which are themselves couched in the knowledge of Torah, and which never leave its foundation, and are just as fixed to it as the roof is of a great building.”
  
  And that is the primary error of the Torah-for-Christians movements: Torah is not the foundation, it is the shadow, it is that which points to the reality Who is Jesus Christ. The foundation of the whole of the Scriptures is Jesus Christ Himself, from beginning to end, not just ‘Matt-Rev’, but from Eternity to Eternity. You are attempting to replace Jesus Christ with Torah, and knowing that that is wholly unacceptable to believers in Jesus Christ, you then have to pull the ‘Yeshua is the Living Torah’ song and dance to try to make it plausible to Christians who have less than a solid foundation in the Scriptures.
  
  Truth is that Jesus Christ is the Foundation, period.
  
  Ephesians 2:19-22 “19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”
  
  1 Peter 2:4-9 “4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
  ‘See, I lay a stone in Zion,
  a chosen and precious cornerstone,
  and the one who trusts in him
  will never be put to shame.’
  
  7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
  
  ‘The stone the builders rejected
  has become the cornerstone,’
  
  8 and,
  
  A stone that causes people to stumble
  and a rock that makes them fall.’
  
  They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
  
  9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”
  Revelation 22:13-17 “13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
  14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
  
  16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
  
  17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
Mindy T, on November 11, 2010 at 12:53 am said:

You are RIGHT ON! Thank you for a wonderful post. I WAS one of those people and what you say is truth. It is a cult in my opinion and will make you judgmental, feeling better than others, rude and angry…oh yeah, and completely MISERABLE! Praise God (oops! There goes my ‘pagan’ church upbringing using that ‘pagan’ word. lol) He spoke to me one day and pulled me back to truth and the light and set me free to follow in the spirit once more. Keep writing. Excellent work!

Reply
- JGIG, on December 14, 2010 at 6:38 pm said:
  
  Thanks, Mindy! A little encouragement goes a long way here =o).
  
  Blessings,
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
Israel, on November 11, 2010 at 6:38 pm said:

CONCERNING #1

:I am not disputing the phrase “new covenant” as it appears in Greek (since it means “new” as in time, but not a replacement of that which was before), but rather its application as a theological concept that seeks to nullify that which came before. Paul himself said a newer covenant can not nullify one that came before (Gal 3:17).

I am also disputing calling Matt-Rev “New Testament” since according to Jer 31, (1) when does the “new covenant” begin, (2) and who’s it for, (3) and who’s missing? 1. When “every man knows G-d.” ie at the End of the Age 2. For Judah and Israel (3) and what’s missing is the Gentiles. (4) And I know I didnt answer the question but it is interesting to point out that Torah is written on the heart. (Notice there is also no “Gate of the Gentiles” in the New Jerusalem, but that’s a side point).

I instead view Matt-Rev as part of “The Writings” specifically called the “Latter Writings” therefore fitting in the “Writings” of the “Torah, Prophets, and Writings” – the Tanakh. The page labeled “New Testament” in your bible, is the least inspired page of the entirety of scripture, and is actually man-made and not from G-d, and should be ripped out from your bible, since after all, some would place that page after John, others after Acts, others at the end of Revelation and yet others not until the writings of the so-called “Early Church Fathers”!

CONCERNING #2

“If one is viewing everything in Scripture according to Mosaic Covenant Law which was written for a specific people for a specific purpose for a specific season, then I guess you could come to that conclusion – and miss the realities of the Gospel.”

:The entirety of the Gospel is found in the Torah. Nothing lacking.

“It is the lens of the Gospel, not the lens of the Law, through which the whole of the Scriptures should be viewed, measured and weighed.”

: You would not know the gospel if it weren’t for the Torah. You could neither approve it, nor believe it if the Torah didn’t support it. Otherwise you hand over the keys of legitimacy to every false prophet that comes along with a contradicting and/or additional message.

“Truth is measured not by an obsolete covenant (Hebrews 8:13), but by Who one says Jesus Christ is (1 John 4).”

:Heb 8:13 talkes of something becoming obsolete, but not yet. Since no scripture talkes of the Torah as being obsolete, you have nothing to justify by standing here.

:1 John 4 starts off by talking about false prophets and testing the spirits, yet where does one go to learn what a false prophet is? Certainly not to John – for then how do you know he’s not a false prophet himself? How do you know if John teaching you a true standard to judge “false prophets” by? As a Jew, he is clearly expecting the reader to be familiar with Deut 12:32-Deut 13:6 which is all about how one tests a false prophet. Else John would be giving you his own standard according to his own revelation, which would then be a circular “test” since by definition he would exclude himself as even being testable for being a false prophet, since he would only give you criteria that he passes but “false prophets” don’t. Certainly you don’t want to hold to that method of testing truth when you face off against a relativist, or a LDS missionary.

CONCERNING #3

:Israel, the Torah, and the Holy One, blessed be He, are one. Tanya Chapter 4. How is this true? Consider how a man and wife are echad, made possible by the Word of G-d, so then we find this so in the Shema “Shema Israel Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.” Shema refers to all of the Torah, Israel, and Adonai our G-d, Adonai, are one. Is the Torah Diety? If you mean the ink written on skins, no. But is the Torah the Word of the L-rd? Yes. And is not the Word of the L-rd the Messiah called Yehoshua (as taught in Deut 31:3 in the Hebrew) the one who crosses over (into the Land) as the Word of the L-rd?

CONCERNING #4

“Um . . . the second set of tablets were not kept. You’ll have to provide some Scripture to back up that assertion.”

:the second set are kept, as it is commanded:

Deuteronomy 10:2
I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. Then you are to put them in the ark.”

and as was done:

Deuteronomy 10:5
Then I came back down the mountain and put the tablets in the ark I had made, as the LORD commanded me, and they are there now.

“They are there now” is a timeless truth since no scripture after this indicates otherwise. Therefore they are still there, and will always be there, forever. The second set ARE kept.

This teaches us that every one of us breaks the Covenant. But it is G-d who renews it to us. This is the old and new covenant. The old covenant was broken to pieces, the new covenant is kept in the ark forver, same content as the first since a newer covenant can not nullify a previous one.

CONCERNING #5

Glad to see you agree with me =o). Tell me, how is it that a people who is without sin in Jesus Christ is still under Law according to Law ‘keeping’ doctrine?

First: as a believer, you are no longer under the curse of the law – for this is how Deut 29 defines what “under the law” means.

Second: We are under the Law of Christ. What is this? Every time it is written “And the ‘Word of the L-rd’ came to Moses and said…” – this understanding should change our definition of what it means to have a red-letter edition of the bible, doesn’t it?

CONCERNING #6

“Those in Christ are not under the authority of Mosaic Covenant Law.”

Who’s law? Who gave it? G-d? How? Through the Word, who is Christ. So then, are you saying that “Those in Christ are not under the authoirty of Christ’s law?”

As explained above in #5, “under the law” as defined by Torah itself in Deut 29 means to be under its curse. Thus “under grace” means to be enabled to do the Law, since it is by grace the Israelites were delivered out of Egypt in their bondage to “serve” G-d. So then by grace we too are delivered from bondage to the ways of this world to “serve” G-d. Our freedom from sin enables us to “serve” G-d, and be “slaves to righteousness.”

CONCERNING #7

“There is no judging of sin or doling out of consequences by the Jerusalem Council! ”

:On the contrary, every community of believers are encouraged to “judge a dispute between believers” 1 Cor 6:4, and this based on the requirements for a judge as outlined in Exodus and elsewhere in Torah.

Granted the Jerusalem Council doesn’t dole out capital punishment – because that was never its jurisdiction. The Sanhedrin of Israel existed for that!

There has always been prophesied to exist two sanhedrins, co-existing, with different jurisdictions and resposibilities. Messiah is the Prophet like Moses. So since Moses appointed 70 elders who constituted the ruling body of Israel, and their jurisdiction is that of the nation, believer or not, and capital punishment, teaching the Torah. Jesus appointed 70 witnesses who testified of the Messiah, and their jurisdiction is that over believers, and bringing forth life through the teachings of Messiah which is the Torah anyways (since neither Messiah can add or subtract from Torah or else he’s not the Messiah).

Therefore “where is this modeled” is answered by how Torah itself describes a proper court. The Torah is truth, nothing lacking, and nothing can be added or subtracted from it (Deut 12:32, or Deut 13:1 depending on your bible.) This is foundational, and is, I think the crux as why you disagree with me, because it appears you believe in a hermeneutic that allows anyone to come along with a “new revelation” that trumps Torah.

“Further accounts/instructions for governance, for lack of a better word, in the Body of Christ had to do with giftings and talents as given to individuals in the Body such as pastors, teachers, administrators, etc.”

:Such is already described in Torah what these roles are, and what they do.

“The design of the Body of Christ as God has set it up is one of necessary differences, (talents and giftings), rooted and grounded in Christ, with the underlying framework being love. That is a very different model than that given under Mosaic Covenant Law.”

:On the contrary. The Body of Christ has existed since Abel’s day. Moses himself was a believer of Messiah, so as a member of the congregation of believers, when G-d gave him governance, are you saying it was prophesied that such a method of governing would change in the future? If there is no such prophecy or command in the Torah that such a change would happen then why hold to such a belief, if not for an emotional appeal to shirk taking submitted responsibility for how we relate to one another and how we relate to G-d?

“All that said, those who claim to be Torah observant simply are not, for many of the reasons stated above.”
:On the contrary, even traditional Christians are Torah observant. They love G-d don’t they, and isn’t that the greatest command of the Torah? Yet you are correct, no one is perfect. Neither does Torah expect you to be perfect (or else it wouldn’t give you the option of bringing a sacrifice before you meet face to face with G-d’s manifest glory in the Temple without getting fried.)

“Your website is interesting in that those in your particular stream of thought are making efforts in the area of enforcement of Mosaic Covenant Law, but the reality is that in so doing, you’re denying the reality of the New Covenant system set in place by Jesus Christ Himself.”
:We aren’t denying the reality, we are embracing the reality that Christ is our King, the Torah is his Law, and we are his subjects. As I have been fond of saying:

All disciples of Jesus have a perfectly Torah observant, Jewish Messiah, who lives in them, and who desires to live through them. My question is, if that is so, then what does that ultimately look like?

The answer: how Jesus lives Torah. This is where we’re headed. Some in this life just get to partcipate in that identity now and be rewarded for their obedience which is already in addition to the eternal life they have by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus’s merit alone; rather than waiting until after they are dead and such obedience yeilding no such additional rewards.

CONCERNING #8

“In light of the Gospel and the completed work of Christ and His Great Commission to us, do you think God will be concerned with how you did or did not ‘keep’ edicts and regulations, or how you loved others and reached out with the Gospel?”

:Here’s a mind bender. Jesus said “all of the Torah and Prophets” hang from “love G-d” and “love your neighbor.” Thus, all of the Torah is G-d’s teaching and instruction in how to love G-d and your neighbor. If the Torah is G-d’s instruction book in how to love, then do YOU think G-d will be concerned with how YOU did or did not “love” as he instructed us? Likewise, if the Gospel is validated by the Torah, then the Torah teaches the Gospel, so when Jesus says “he who does not teach and does not do the least of these commandments will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven,” do YOU think he’s concerned if you don’t teach the Gospel as validated by Torah?

CONCERNING #9

“You wrote, “Torah promises life for the one who keeps it”. Hmmm . . . can’t find a Scripture for that assertion.”

:Here they are:

Deuteronomy 6:2
so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.

Deuteronomy 32:46-47
Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

Deuteronomy 6:24-25
The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”

CONCERNING #10

“PaRDeS is used in Judaism – and has mystical roots, thereby disqualifying it for use by believers in Jesus Christ.”

“Mystical” does not mean occultic. It simply means of-a-mystery. Consider the “muesterion” of the Gospel – the Mystery of the Gospel. That’s mystical, yet it’s not disqualified for use by believers. So then, what is mystical about “PaRDeS?” Torah teaches every single rule of PaRDeS. Let me repeat that: Torah teaches us how to understand it! All of the rules of Peshat (Literal), Remez (Hint), Drash (Allegory), and Sod (Secret/Numerical) are found in Torah! PaRDeS is “mystical” in that it unlocks the mysteries of the scriptures in a clear, logically consistent way, all founded on the peshat, or literal meaning of the text first and foremost being the gold standard that qualifies the truth of anything derived from other the other levels of hermeneutics. For example, anything derived from numerical comparison (since all Hebrew letters have a numerical value since there are no “numbers” in Hebrew) can not contradict the plain meaning of the text, or any scripture. It is when people hold to derivations from the deeper levels of PaRDeS at the expense of Peshat, that you get the wacky fringe, and the extremities of Kaballa and new-age of the Madonna kind. But the same is true for any hermeneutical system. If you break the rules, you will be led astray. Don’t break them, and you will be lead into deeper and deeper understanding by the Spirit of G-d into great truths totally supported by all of scripture.

Matthew is written on a Peshat level understanding of the scriptures. Mark was written with a Remez level of understanding, Luke with a Drash level of understanding, and John, the most mysterious gospel of all talking about esoteric concepts such as “The Word became flesh” and “was In The Beginning with G-d” is coming from multiple angels only seen clearly from a Sod level understanding of certain related Torah passages.

“Your point does nothing to address the issue of fluidity in the interpretive methods used in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism/Netzarim streams of faith. All you’ve done is claim superiority by means of a mystical interpretive vehicle.”

:I absolutely agree that PaRDeS has been abused by MJs, and other groups – but it is that PaRDeS is being abused, not that PaRDeS is wrong or an invalid hermeneutic. In fact, it is a hermeneutic that is completely and totally derived from Torah itself. Torah teaches you how to understand it. If you don’t believe me, look at the Torah in Hebrew. Start at the beginning. Tell me what questions arise in YOUR mind when you look at the first word…nay, the first Letter of the Torah in Hebrew? What does that question and its related questions teach you about Torah and what Torah expects you to do as you read it? What are the next visual questions you have as you read the first word? The first verse? Notice the first break in the text? The order of columns and rows, – are these not all inspired? Everything in a sefer Torah is inspired. What does the crowning mean, and how does it modify the understanding of what TOrah is trying to communicate to you from different angles of questions? Even Jesus referred to such ‘decorative’ crowning as inspired of G-d when he said “not one jot or tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah…”

It is in asking the questions and discovering yet more questions that you begin to learn the hermeneutic that Torah wants you to use. Every book, break, paragraph, verse order, verse, phrase, word, letter, crown, and space, column – everything is inspired of G-d and thus serves a reason in teaching you that there is more to Torah than just what you initially see with your eyes. It is only by questioning Torah do you begin to see its multidimensional and interconnected and interrelated, echad, one, united, nature. And when you add to that set of questions the foundational question of all “what does this have to do with Messiah?” well… at that point you’ve pretty much stepped into the realm of the Sages and Prophets, and Apostles who came before you.

CONCERNING #12

“that is the primary error of the Torah-for-Christians movements: Torah is not the foundation, it is the shadow, it is that which points to the reality Who is Jesus Christ.”

: You are obviously referring to the use of the word “shadow” in Hebrews, often translated from a Platonic philosophic viewpoint which emphasize that shadows aren’t real, yet the author is addressing Jews, not Greeks. Thus the “shadow” reference refers to the Hebrew use of the term, specifically in relationship between the Tabernacle on earth that Moses built, and the Tabernacle in heaven – where Moses is commanded to make the earthly “in the pattern of the heavenly.” It is important to realize this Jewish concept of a “pattern” and accept that both tabernacles are decreed to co-exist, one not overriding the other, because they deal with different areas of juridiction and application. Since there is no overlap, there is therefore no competition between them – and that is the key that is missed by many who start off with the wrong foundation in approaching that term “shadow” as used by the book of Hebrews and turning it into some sort of theology that eventually nullifies the scripture of Torah as being applicable for “right living” per 2 Tim 3:15-16.

There is also laced within this Jewish concept of a “pattern” an understanding of what it means to be “echad” – one. The idea in Jewish thought being that as one interacts with the earthly Tabernacle, one also therefore is interacting with the Heavenly Tabernacle at the same time. The service in one coincides with a service in the other. Thus, if as you say the Torah is a “shadow” of Jesus, then from the Jewish perspective, interacting with the “pattern” which is Torah, is just as much an interaction with “Jesus” himself, as the “pattern” in both pictures is earthly deals with earthly, temporary, matters of approaching G-d and being obedient to Him, and the “realities” of both pictures are heavenly and deal with only with heavenly and eternal matters such as one’s salvation. Since the earthly patterns deal with earthly applications and the realities deal with heavenly applications, then there is no overlap between the two jurisdictions, and thus no competition between the pattern and the reality – they both can co-exist, and G-d commands it so!

“The foundation of the whole of the Scriptures is Jesus Christ Himself, from beginning to end, not just ‘Matt-Rev’, but from Eternity to Eternity.”

:I agree, but only in 20/20 hindsight, and only because I know what you mean by this – in that Jesus is that from which all else points to. However, if you pick apart your statement, you will find that not even you agree with it, since it’s not “Jesus Christ” that is the foundation of all of scripture except in an ideal and perfect world where no one sins and we know perfectly who Jesus is. How so? In our sin-filled fallen world, one person’s Jesus may not be another’s! What then determines the truth? Scripture itself. Thus scripture itself trumps one’s beliefs about Jesus. Otherwise the Mormons will pull a fast one on you with their “new revelation” which trumps scripture that came before, and Muslims are just waiting to get you to throw out the whole bible for errancy and accept their “beautiful” book.

“You are attempting to replace Jesus Christ with Torah”

: On the contrary. We should be qualifying Christ with Torah, or else one has a false Christ. You can’t replace Christ with Torah unless you don’t have the Christ of Torah. Or put another way: you can’t replace Christ with Scripture unless you don’t have the Christ of Scripture. And concerning scripture that comes after Torah: therefore you can’t qualify scripture that comes after Torah unless you don’t have scripture that is in line with Torah. This is true for all books Joshua-Revelation.

Yet even then this is not so in a fallen world. In fallen world, people disagree what Joshua-Revelation talk about. Thus what really is the truest statement of all of this is:

If what you believe about Jesus and understand about Joshua-Revelation, is not replaceable by Torah, then either you don’t believe or know Torah, or you don’t have a belief about Jesus and an understanding of Joshua-Revelation that is replaceable by Torah – and thus your belief and understanding would be false according to Torah.

Since one’s whole hermeneutic is based on scripture, and not on a “burning bosom” or “personal feeling” or what “feels right” or a disbelief that that the Torah is corrupted – then what is one to honestly do concerning a belief about Jesus, or an understanding of Joshua-Revelation that clearly contradicts the Torah, the foundation that came before all of it? Honestly, one must come to the conclusion that if Joshua-Revelation is scripture, then it’s not Joshua-Revelation that is wrong, but rather that their understanding about Joshua-Revelation is wrong, and certainly then possibly the belief in Jesus that is dependent upon that understanding.

This is a tenuous position to be in, and of course the unbelieving orthodox Jews look at the doublestandard we as believers appear to be foisting upon them to accept.

“Truth is that Jesus Christ is the Foundation, period.”

:I agree. Period. Which Jesus?

Thank for you taking the time to read through my answers to your responses. If you like, we can just focus on one topic at a time if that makes things easier. I think the best topic to talk about is really the foundational crux of our disagreement. Our heremeneutic that the Torah is the foundation and boundary for all truth and revelation, the only means by which any claim to truth and acceptance must be tested against, and the only standard that qualifies the Prophets and Writings (and latter writings of the apostles) as inspired of G-d. This is all based on the verse that says twice in Torah (as if to serve as two required witnesses to the fact) “do not add or subtract from all that I command you” (and the entire Torah is all that G-d commands as explained that if one does it, they live (and who does it? Messiah Yeshua. Jesus. It is in his merit, that he inherits eternal life, and it is by his grace he gives it to us, clothing ourselves with him, like G-d clothed Adam and Eve)).

Anyways, sorry for writing a book.

Shalom.

Israel

Reply
- JGIG, on November 18, 2010 at 4:15 am said:
  
  Hi Israel -
  
  Regarding #1 – The New Covenant does not ‘nullify’ the Old, it makes it obsolete: Hebrews 8:13 “13 By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”
  
  The Law absolutely still has purpose – it shows mankind their sin and points to Jesus Christ.
  
  You used Galatians 3:17 to prove your point that the New Covenant does not ‘nullify the Old’, however the context from which you pulled that verse has to do with the covenant given at Sinai not setting aside the covenant before it – the Abrahamic Covenant. Then Paul goes on to say, “19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.” Galatians 3:19a
  
  Until came and went. And the Seed showed up and did His thing =o). And back to Luke 22:20, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
  
  And back to Hebrews 8:13, “13 By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”
  
  And the Seed was promised after the Fall, to all mankind.
  
  And that little page between the Old and New Testaments? Don’t sweat it, it’s really not a stumbling block. In fact, I think it completely appropriate that the fulfillment of God’s ultimate plan for Redemption be set apart by at least one little page . . . A bit of an announcement, if you will.
  
  Regarding #2 – You say, “The entirety of the Gospel is found in the Torah. Nothing lacking.”
  
  Yet God saw fit to work beyond Torah and come in the flesh to do the work of the Cross. If there was nothing lacking, as you assert, why would He bother?
  
  You say, “You would not know the gospel if it weren’t for the Torah.” Really? Tell that to the millions of believers all over the world that have come to relationship with God through Jesus Christ and the story of His Birth, Death, and Resurrection.
  
  Dogma, meet Reality.
  
  As for recognizing false teachers/testing the spirits, you again use an example from Scripture that does not support your assertion. 1 John 4 is all about Jesus Christ and Who He is, and who others say He is. John doesn’t even bring Deuteronomy into the picture! Love God and love your neighbor, yes, however in the context of Christ and the simplified Law that He established in the New Covenant. The Old Covenantal system is not a part of what John teaches us to look for or measure by. “Who do you say Jesus is” is the question we must ask those who seek to teach us. If anyone preaches a different Jesus that that of the Scriptures, then they are a false prophet/teacher.
  
  Regarding #3 – What I wrote about was how Jesus is God incarnate, not the ‘Living Torah’. You came back with some gobbledygook quoted from the Tanya. Sorry, not buying it. Let the reader learn about the Tanya and it’s author HERE and see that the believer in Christ should have nothing to do with it.
  
  Regarding #4 – You’re using the word ‘kept’ in that the second set of tablets was put away, retained, in a storage kind of way. What I meant when I said that the second tablets were not kept any better than the first was in the ‘keeping of, an observing of the Law’ sense.
  
  Regarding #5 – You disregard the work of the Cross and what Jesus Christ accomplished there. Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe on Him. In Christ, the Law becomes an obsolete religious system. If you are in Christ, you are no longer under the Law.
  
  Regarding #6 – You’re trying to make Yeshua the Living Torah again, Israel. Not buyin’ it. Sorry. Torah points to Christ. Christ did the work of the Cross. The religious system that was Torah is now obsolete because of that work at the Cross.
  
  Regarding #7 – Wow. What you write here is a complete departure from the reality that is the Body of Christ and how God structured her. ANYONE reading through the writings written to the Body of Christ can see that what you teach here is error. Well, I guess not everyone, as I’m sure you have your followers. I just won’t be one of them =o).
  
  Regarding #8 – But Torah does not teach how to go out an make disciples of all tribes tongues and nations. Torah taught to stay set apart from the world. We are to go out in to the world and preach the Gospel – to go out into the world yet be not of it. That is an impossible task within the confines of Torah Law.
  
  Regarding #9 – Um, Israel, I was speaking of eternal life. Torah does not claim to offer that. The verses you quoted speak of self-preservation in the flesh. Obey and be blessed. Disobey and be cursed, or worse yet, be put to death. You wrote, “And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.” Um, no, Israel. Jesus Christ is our righteousness: 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 says, “30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: ‘Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.’” You are boasting in the Law.
  
  Regarding #10 – About PaRDeS: If it’s so great, why aren’t those who practice it (the Rabbis and Sages from different streams of Judaism) flocking to Jesus Christ and acknowledging Him as their Saviour in droves? PaRDeS results in confusing, not clarifying, the Gospel and the teachings of the writings to the Body of Christ. PaRDeS, by its nature of trying to find ‘hidden meaning’ and ‘unique insight’ in every stroke and structure of text ends up seeing things that are not there, and/or constructing what the reader wishes were there.
  
  Regarding #11 – Well, we know about #11, don’t we =o)?
  
  Regarding #12 – You wrote, “If what you believe about Jesus and understand about Joshua-Revelation, is not replaceable by Torah, then either you don’t believe or know Torah, or you don’t have a belief about Jesus and an understanding of Joshua-Revelation that is replaceable by Torah – and thus your belief and understanding would be false according to Torah.”
  
  You have made Torah your god. The balance of your views reflect that position. When it comes right down to it, you preach a different gospel, and a different Jesus than is reflected in the writings given to the Body of Christ. I’ve spent some time at your website and find at best a caricature of what you term as the ‘gospel’, as well as teachings and resources steeped in rabbinic Judaism and Kabbalah. Sorry, Israel. Just not goin’ there.
  _______________
  
  Hey, I understand about being long-winded. No worries =o).
  
  Every blessing,
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
Joe Kleine, on December 10, 2010 at 10:36 am said:

JGIG, I don’t know who you are, but I appreciate you tackling this problem in such a professional,scholarly manner.

Reply
- JGIG, on December 13, 2010 at 12:39 am said:
  
  Thanks, Joe =o).
  
  Reply
Captain Obvious, on December 12, 2010 at 10:17 pm said:

Regarding point 6: “If Yeshua is the Living Torah, then the Law DID die. If the Law died, then it is no longer in effect”

Your own analogy destroys the very point you are trying to make. Jesus is the WORD made flesh. The Torah is PART OF the Word. If the Torah died as you say, THEN SO DID ALL THE REST OF THE WORD.

Logic fail.

Even if you want to say “the Word/Torah died”, how quickly you forget THAT HE WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD. Thus, the Torah is still in effect. Jesus IS the Torah/Prophets/Writings/Word in the flesh. You cannot pick and choose which parts of the Word Jesus is and is not.

Again, logical fail.

If you want to say Jesus is not the Torah, then He is not the rest of the Word either. And before you pull the “logos doesn’t mean written word!!” nonsense, I would ask you, is God’s written Word different from His spoken Word? Are you REALLY trying to separate the written from the spoken?

Please.

Reply
- JGIG, on December 13, 2010 at 12:28 am said:
  
  Hey there, Captain Obvious. Welcome to JGIG.
  
  Point six actually has to do with sanctification, not with the ‘Yeshua is the Living Torah’ issue.
  
  If you say that Jesus/Yeshua is the Living Torah, then you are assigning attributes of God to a written Word. The written Word is a written expression of God, not a physical embodiment of Him as Jesus Christ is. You see, I believe that the Scriptures and Jesus Himself say that Jesus is God in the Flesh.
  
  You wrote, “Jesus IS the Torah/Prophets/Writings/Word in the flesh.” I didn’t see that you believe that Jesus is God in the Flesh there. So from where I sit, either you have denied the Deity of Christ, or you are equating the written Word with God Himself. Which is it? And how do you back it up with Scripture?
  
  Logos doesn’t mean the written word:
  logos :
  1) of speech
  a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
  b) what someone has said
  1) a word
  2) the sayings of God
  3) decree, mandate or order
  4) of the moral precepts given by God
  5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
  6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
  c) discourse
  1) the act of speaking, speech
  2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
  3) a kind or style of speaking
  4) a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
  d) doctrine, teaching
  e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
  f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
  g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
  2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
  a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
  b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
  c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
  d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
  e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
  1) reason would
  f) reason, cause, ground
  3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world’s life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man’s salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds. (source)
  
  Jesus isn’t merely the written or even the spoken Word of God – He is the essence of God Himself, something that Torah foreshadowed and pointed toward. Bottom line is the Reality is Christ, “For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Colossians 2:9
  
  Beyond that, let’s get logical, shall we? You assert that Yeshua is the Living Torah. That God’s written/spoken Word is not different from the incarnation of Yeshua. If that’s true, and Yeshua is the Living Word, then if you were to hold the original autographs in your hand, would you be literally holding Yeshua in your hands? Are you saying that Torah was literally nailed to the Cross and then literally rose from the dead? If Torah rose from the dead (okay, this is starting to sound silly to me, but I’ll forge ahead anyway) then why are you not observing every jot and tittle? Do I misjudge you? Are you offering sacrifices in the Temple? How about this . . . If you do believe in the Deity of Christ, and still believe that Yeshua is the Living Torah, then is Torah also God? Is God Torah?
  
  And I’m being illogical?
  
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
Captain Obvious, on December 13, 2010 at 9:12 am said:

Yes of course Jesus is God in the flesh. Nobody is disputing that. What I AM disputing is this line of logical rot that states that the SPOKEN Word made flesh (Jesus) is somehow DIFFERENT than the WRITTEN Word on paper(Scripture). That is all I am saying. There is no Scripture to back that up. It is pure nonsense.

Jesus is ALL of the Word made flesh, spoken, written, Torah, Prophets, ALL of it.

“If you do believe in the Deity of Christ, and still believe that Yeshua is the Living Torah, then is Torah also God? Is God Torah?”

Don’t be absurd. The Word (Jesus) IS God according to John 1:1. Because the written and the spoken Word are the SAME THING, both were made FLESH. The flesh of Jesus died on the cross, NOT God’s Word. The physical blood of Jesus takes away sins, NOT God’s Word.

Your dilemma arises because you make no distinction between the FLESH of Jesus and His Divine Essence. His Divinity (ie, the WORD)NEVER died, only His flesh. Your logical dilemma is a false one.

Can God’s Word (written/spoken, etc) be ANYthing less than part of God Himself? I think not. It is not the words on paper that are divine, it is the CONCEPT and IDEAS behind them that are divine. They are part of God’s very essence.

That is why Jesus is ALL of God’s Word made FLESH, spoken/written/Torah/Prophets/Writings/NT/OT (and on top of that, He’s God IN flesh), not because these things ARE God, but because they are PART of His character. He is not limited to these things, but they are how we puny mortals relate to Him.

Reply
- JGIG, on December 14, 2010 at 2:48 pm said:
  
  Hi Captain Obvious,
  
  I’m glad that you agree that Jesus is God in the flesh.
  
  You wrote, “What I AM disputing is this line of logical rot that states that the SPOKEN Word made flesh (Jesus) is somehow DIFFERENT than the WRITTEN Word on paper(Scripture). That is all I am saying. There is no Scripture to back that up. It is pure nonsense.”
  
  I beg your pardon, Capt’n, but please provide the Scripture that says that Jesus = the Written word of God. What you’re saying is that Torah is the full revelation of God in written form. Well, that’s demonstrably untrue, as God had much more to say to mankind than what is in Torah, wouldn’t you agree? Not only that, but take that a step further: If Jesus is God in the flesh, and Jesus = the written Word, then you are limiting the scope of Who God is to the written Word.
  
  You wrote, “Don’t be absurd. The Word (Jesus) IS God according to John 1:1. Because the written and the spoken Word are the SAME THING, both were made FLESH.”
  
  Yes, Jesus is God according to John 1:1. The logos of God is not limited to the spoken Word, the utterances of God, and does not refer at all to the written Word of God. This bears repeating here:
  
  Logos doesn’t mean the written word:
  logos :
  1) of speech
  a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
  b) what someone has said
  1) a word
  2) the sayings of God
  3) decree, mandate or order
  4) of the moral precepts given by God
  5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
  6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
  c) discourse
  1) the act of speaking, speech
  2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
  3) a kind or style of speaking
  4) a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
  d) doctrine, teaching
  e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
  f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
  g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
  2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
  a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
  b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
  c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
  d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
  e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
  1) reason would
  f) reason, cause, ground
  3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world’s life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man’s salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
  
  Jesus isn’t merely the written or even the spoken Word of God – He is the essence of God Himself, something that Torah foreshadowed and pointed toward. Bottom line is the Reality is Christ, “For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Colossians 2:9
  
  You wrote, “Your dilemma arises because you make no distinction between the FLESH of Jesus and His Divine Essence. His Divinity (ie, the WORD)NEVER died, only His flesh. Your logical dilemma is a false one.”
  
  In that I do not agree that Yeshua is the Living Torah, we will never come to an agreement on that particular point. Suffice it to say that we agree that the flesh of Christ died, not the Essence of God embodied therein. Where we differ is in saying that Jesus Christ is the spoken/written Word of God. Where the spoken/written Word of God is *a* reflection of Who God is and *contains* things which He wishes to communicate to us, Jesus Christ is the *complete* revelation of God to those who believe on Him. Go back to Colossians 2:9.
  
  Also Hebrews 1:1-3, “1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.”
  
  ‘Word’ in verse three is rhema in the Greek, again, not referring to a written word, but of living utterances:
  rhema -
  1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
  a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
  b) speech, discourse
  1) what one has said
  c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words)
  1) an utterance
  2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
  a) concerning some occurrence
  2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
  a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration
  b) so far as it is a matter of command
  c) a matter of dispute, case at law
  
  Can those things be written down? Yes. Are *all things* held together by Torah? No. Torah is a *partial* revelation of God. Jesus Christ is *the radiance of God’s glory and *the exact representation of God’s Being*, sustaining everything by His *rhema*. If you say that Yeshua is the Living Torah, you attach attributes to Torah that belong to Christ alone. Hebrews 1 does not say, “Torah is is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being”, it says, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being”!
  
  You wrote, “Can God’s Word (written/spoken, etc) be ANYthing less than part of God Himself? I think not. It is not the words on paper that are divine, it is the CONCEPT and IDEAS behind them that are divine. They are part of God’s very essence.”
  
  Yes! On this we agree! And it is the idea that the written Word is a *partial* revelation of Who God is that I make the distinction between The written Word and the Word made Flesh. Jesus, the Word made Flesh, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being”. There is no ‘part of God’ there: “For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
  
  I think we agree more than we disagree on the concept of the Logos. It is in the deification of Torah itself where we differ.
  
  Great comment!
  
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
  - Israel, on December 14, 2010 at 4:14 pm said:
    
    >What you’re saying is that Torah is the full revelation of God in written form. Well, that’s demonstrably untrue, as God had much more to say to mankind than what is in Torah, wouldn’t you agree?
    
    The Torah disagrees with you:
    
    Deut 4:2
    Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
    
    Deut 12:32 (Deut 13:1)
    See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
    
    and
    
    Deuteronomy 31:24
    Moses finished writing in a book the words of this Torah from beginning to end
    
    If Moses wrote the Torah “from begining to end” then everything he wrote concerining what G-d commands, is in the entirety of the Torah which is “in a book” – a single sefer, the Torah scroll. Therefore, anyone who attempts to add or subtract from the Torah transgresses the command to not add or subtract from “what I command you.”
    
    But this is about what G-d commands us. What about prophecy? Prophecy too is tested by this standard. If a revelation from G-d from prophecy contradicts “what I command you (in the Torah)”, then the prophecy is false. As it is clearly explained in the context o:
    
    Deut 13:1-5:
    
    “That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God.”
    
    Here Torah defines for us clearly what a false prophet is: one who incites rebellion against G-d, and…
    
    “That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow”
    
    Here the TOrah defines a false prophet as one who tries to turn us away from G-d’s commands… which Deut 12:32 warns us not to add to or subtract from. Even if the prophets words come true as it is written:
    
    “and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place”…”you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer” becuase he preaches rebellion (turning away from the commands of G-d).
    - Deut 13:2-3
    
    No wonder Christians have a hard time evangelizing Jews, yet Christians are commanded to reach the Jew first! Yet how can this happen if Christian hermeneutics demonstrably removes the rug from under their feet by removing the Torah as relevant to understanding the fullness of the gospel and walking rightly?
    
    Is there any revelation in Joshua-Revelation that changes how one walks before the Lord, that adds or subtracts from Torah? Absolutely not!
    
    Is there any prophecy about future events that are NOT found in the Torah? I argue that this is not so as well – for I believe that the entire of history is found in the written Torah, for if it is written that Moses wrote all the words of the Torah from “beginning to end” then surly he wrote of his death which is at the end of the Torah. It’s called taking what the Torah says at face value, and agreeing with it, no matter how illogical it may seem to our own limited comprehension. Do we or do we not believe the Torah is divine in origin?
    
    The Torah is called truth in Psalm 119:142. It’s not called “a truth.” It’s simply Truth. So then, the logic goes, if something is true, then its in Torah – somehow. Our ignorance of how it is in Torah is the only remaining factor in confirming such. The moment we assume that truth can exist outside of Torah, is the moment we have added to or subtracted from its truth.
    
    What is the Torah from “beginning to end” if not literally from “In the Beginning” to the “End” of this age? Even the great rabbis of old, before our Master came even, understood that the Torah contains the fullness of human history, past, present, and future. We would be fools otherwise to assume we know enough of Torah to completely discount the prophecies of those who claim to be prophets; yet we would be even greater fools to follow them if they ever once led us to rebel against the fixed commands of G-d as instructed in the Torah.
    
    Reply
    - JGIG, on December 14, 2010 at 6:27 pm said:
      
      Hi Israel,
      
      I’ll be posting and replying to your other, more lengthy comment later. This one is a good bit shorter, so I’ll respond to it now.
      
      If what you say above is true, then you reject the balance of the canon of Scripture. Anything else you have to say on the matter has to be measured by that reality. In your view, when the Bible says, law, to you it means Mosaic Covenant Law. When the Bible says, word, to you it means Torah. When the Bible says anything, to you it means Torah. To you, everything is Torah, and Torah is everything. It’s idolatry and you can’t even see that.
      
      You wrote, “Do we or do we not believe the Torah is divine in origin?” In origin? Yes. Intrinsically? No. Torah is a created entity. It is not itself divine, any more than any other created thing is itself divine.
      
      You wrote, “The Torah is called truth in Psalm 119:142. It’s not called “a truth.” It’s simply Truth. So then, the logic goes, if something is true, then its in Torah – somehow. Our ignorance of how it is in Torah is the only remaining factor in confirming such. The moment we assume that truth can exist outside of Torah, is the moment we have added to or subtracted from its truth.”
      
      Our family dog is black. That is truth. To follow your logic, if something is true, it must be contained in the truth that our dog is black – somehow. That we are ignorant of how it’s there is the only remaining factor in confirming such. The moment that we assume that truth can exist outside of the truth that our dog is black is the moment that we have added or subtracted to the truth that our dog is black. Okay. That was completely ridiculous. Both your rendition and mine.
      
      From the Scriptures, here’s why your’s is ridiculous: “2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.” (Ephesians 3:2-5) The mystery of Christ was not revealed in Torah. And Hebrews 11:39-40, “39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.”
      
      God did something new and profound in the work of Christ – something not contained in Torah, and only prophesied in types and shadows! If you want to live there, that is certainly your choice. I prefer the Reality that is Christ!
      
      -JGIG
      
      Reply
      - Israel, on December 14, 2010 at 6:51 pm said:
        
        The scriptures do not say that your dog being black is truth. Just because something is correct, doesn’t mean that it’s what the scriptures call truth. Jesus Christ is called Truth. Your dog being black is not called truth.
        
        “which was not made known to people in other generations AS it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets”
        
        But it was still known. It was not revealed AS it has been revealed before, much like one who has 20/20 hindsight understands things more than one who does not have such benefit. But the mystery of the gospel was known, and men of faith walked in it.
        
        >God did something new and profound in the work of Christ – something not contained in Torah.
        
        I challenge you to name just one thing that was new and profound in the work of Christ, anything, that is not contained in Torah. Just one.
        
        Let me ask you this question too: Can any new revelation from G-d contradict the scriptures that came before it?
        
        Reply
        
        JGIG, on December 15, 2010 at 4:03 pm said:
        
        He established the Body of Christ, the Church:
        Mark 4:7-13
        7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
        
        Romans 16:25-27
        25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
        
        It is clear that the mystery of the Gospel was kept hidden for a season:
        1 Corinthians 2:
        6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
        “What no eye has seen,
        what no ear has heard,
        and what no human mind has conceived”—
        the things God has prepared for those who love him—
        
        10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
        
        Jesus redeemed us, forgiving our sins, not merely covering them with a temporary solution:
        Ephesians 1:7-10
        7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
        
        Jesus made Gentiles co-heirs:
        Ephesians 3:4-12
        4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
        
        7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
        
        Again, Jesus established the Body of Christ, the Church:
        Colossians 1:24-29
        24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
        
        28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.
        
        In Christ the mystery of God is revealed:
        Colossians 2:2-4
        2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
        
        Christ is preached in the nations:
        1 Timothy 3:16
        16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
        He appeared in the flesh,
        was vindicated by the Spirit,
        was seen by angels,
        was preached among the nations,
        was believed on in the world,
        was taken up in glory.
        
        Christ has saved us:
        2 Timothy 1:9-10
        9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
        
        What did He do that was new and profound? The work of the Cross, that’s what. And then He rose from the dead. And as a result those who believe don’t have their sins just covered, like in Torah, but forgiven. After He ascended, He sent His Holy Spirit to indwell us, and to seal us to Himself.
        
        How about leadership structure? Pastors, teachers, administrators . . .
        
        How about the concept of a Body – Many parts, One Body – each ‘part’ operating in its giftings and talents, not everyone living by rote Law, but serving one another in love according to the Spirit. These are all new things in which the Body of Christ is called to walk.
        
        Torah is NOT the end-all and be-all of what God planned for mankind. To assert such means that you toss the New Testament and its additional revelation and instructions written to the Redeemed Body of Christ.
        
        -JGIG
        
        Reply
Israel, on December 13, 2010 at 3:14 pm said:

Sorry it took a while to respond. Holidays. I hope you’re having a good one. :D

Hi Israel – the following has been edited slightly in that I’ve labled what you wrote and what I wrote so it’s easier to read. My responses will be in bold type below.

JGIG –> Regarding #1 – The New Covenant does not ‘nullify’ the Old, it makes it obsolete: Hebrews 8:13 “13 By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”

Israel –> What is the new covenant? According to scripture, when does it begin? According to Scripture, Who’s included in it?

JGIG –> The New Covenant established in the Blood of Jesus began with the shedding of His Blood. John 3:16 tells who’s included in that New Covenant (whosoever believeth).

JGIG –> The Law absolutely still has purpose – it shows mankind their sin and points to Jesus Christ.

Israel –> According to 2 Tim 3:15-17, the Torah is:
1. able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus (as you mentioned above).
but then also is useful for…
2. teaching
3. rebuking
4. correcting
5. training in righteousness
and if we think this only applies to the unbeliever, it is clearly written:
“…so that the servant of G-d may…
the result being:
a. “thoroughly equipped”
b. “for every”
c. “good”
d. “work.”
So then the Torah has multiple functions. It serves to bring the unbeliever to Christ, and serves to instruct the believer in right living. This has always been the case.

JGIG –> Torah being useful for instruction and teaching is quite different from Redeemed believers being bound to Mosaic Covenant Law contained within Torah.

JGIG –> You used Galatians 3:17 to prove your point that the New Covenant does not ‘nullify the Old’, however the context from which you pulled that verse has to do with the covenant given at Sinai not setting aside the covenant before it – the Abrahamic Covenant.

Israel –> My point was to show you Paul’s point that a new covenant can never set aside a previous covenant. That is a universal law. This means any “new covenant” can’t nullify an “older covenant.”

JGIG –> The nation of Israel broke the covenant long before the Blood of Jesus rendered it obsolete. God was faithful to uphold His end of the bargain for His purposes and in spite of Israel’s repeated rebellion and idolatry.

JGIG –> Then Paul goes on to say, “19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.” Galatians 3:19a

Israel –>The Torah has always existed,

JGIG –> No, Torah has not always existed. It is not an eternal entity. That is a belief that comes from Kabbalah, and cannot be backed up with Scripture.

Israel cont. –> because G-d’s righteous standards have always existed, because G-d never changes.

JGIG –>You’re equating Torah with God. Torah does not equal God.

So then what is meant by the “giving” of something that already exists? Notice it doesn’t say “Why was the law CREATED at all?” The question instead is why was it GIVEN.

JGIG –> If I make a gift for someone, I ‘give’ it to them. Does it already exist? Yes. Is it eternal, just because it is given, and I didn’t specify that I made it in order to give it? No. Rolling my eyes, now, Israel.

Israel cont. –> Why was that which already existed as a perfect standard for righteousness put into the hands of man?

JGIG –> You’re building on an unproven premise. Common in Law ‘keeping’ doctrine-fashioning.

Israel cont. –> Because when man fell, he had a propensity to sin and like a good Father, our Father laid out the boundaries that defined Himself so as to have cause to correct us and bring us back to His standard (Messiah living through us which can only come about by us first accepting Messiah’s righteousness for ourselves). But since sin demands death, something has to die for there to be a true reconcilliation of the debt. Messiah died for us, and our old natures die in order that Messiah can live in us.

JGIG –> Um, Israel, Messiah was not just another ‘something’ that had to die for us. He was the Perfect Lamb of God, the FINAL sacrifice. In Christ we die to sin and live in Christ. The old nature still wars within us, however, until The Resurrection (Romans 7).

JGIG –> Until came and went. And the Seed showed up and did His thing =o). And back to Luke 22:20, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”

Israel –> What is the new covenant? What are its terms. Where is it spelled out for us in scripture so as to have validity? What makes it valid? What is to prevent another “new covenant” from coming again and nullifying the then “older” “new” covenant?

JGIG –> The New Covenant’s terms are laid out in John 3:16. The Blood of Christ makes it valid. You think that what Jesus did is not enough, and that we need another covenant? I think what He did is abundantly sufficient, and am not looking for another covenant.

JGIG –> And the Seed was promised after the Fall, to all mankind.

Israel –> So when was mankind instructed to hope for Messiah for salvation? Gen 3:15! Thus when does the new covenant officially begin? In Genesis 3:15!

JGIG –> No. It was established at the shedding of the Blood of Messiah.

Israel cont. –> And when will it be fully realized? At the End of the Age when we are all resurrected to eternal life.

JGIG –> No. The New Covenant was fully realized when Jesus said it was: With His Blood.

Israel cont. –> So then, if the New Covenant began in Gen 3:15, then why was the Torah given to even such a man as Moses, who himself is one counted as having “faith” if faith alone like Abraham saves you (which I agree with)? To teach Moses and all those of faith, how to live rightly since we all still sin! The Torah was given because of transgression. And last I checked, becoming a Christian doesn’t shield you from engaging in sin.

JGIG –> You’re building on a false premise again. Nice try, though.

JGIG –> And that little page between the Old and New Testaments? Don’t sweat it, it’s really not a stumbling block. In fact, I think it completely appropriate that the fulfillment of God’s ultimate plan for Redemption be set apart by at least one little page . . . A bit of an announcement, if you will.

Israel –> I challenge you to define the New Covenant according to scripture, and therefore place that page in the appropriate place.

JGIG –> Red Herring.

JGIG –> Regarding #2 – You say, “The entirety of the Gospel is found in the Torah. Nothing lacking.”

Yet God saw fit to work beyond Torah and come in the flesh to do the work of the Cross. If there was nothing lacking, as you assert, why would He bother?

Israel –> I don’t see how the work of the cross is a work beyond Torah.

JGIG –> Stunning.

Israel –> If it were, then the work is unecessary and even counter to the truth of Torah if that were so. However that is not so. The work of the cross is taught from Torah as what Messiah would do. When Messiah came, he fulfilled, he did the work of the Torah that was prophesied about him in this regard. He would not be Messiah otherwise.

JGIG –> You say, “You would not know the gospel if it weren’t for the Torah.” Really? Tell that to the millions of believers all over the world that have come to relationship with God through Jesus Christ and the story of His Birth, Death, and Resurrection.

Dogma, meet Reality.

Israel –> If there was no Torah, there would have been no Prophets and Writings. If there were no Torah, Prophets, and Writings, you would not be able to verify who Messiah is (for then anyone could claim to be Messiah and you’d have nothing to define or disprove it). So yes, I do tell it to the millions of Mormons all over the world who have come to a false relationship with G-d through a false Jesus Christ and the story of his birth, death, and resurrection.

JGIG –> Mormons are in error because of Who they say Christ IS, not because of what they know or don’t know about Torah, or because of what they teach about the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

JGIG –> As for recognizing false teachers/testing the spirits, you again use an example from Scripture that does not support your assertion. 1 John 4 is all about Jesus Christ and Who He is, and who others say He is. John doesn’t even bring Deuteronomy into the picture!

Israel –> John does’t have to bring Deuteronomy into the picture because it’s already assumed. He doesn’t have to restate scripture that came before him, in order to make a point that is obvious.

JGIG –> Yet he writes of Christ and not Torah.

JGIG –> Love God and love your neighbor, yes, however in the context of Christ and the simplified Law that He established in the New Covenant.

Israel –> Where is there any talk of a “simplified law” that he established, discussed anywhere in scripture, let alone prophesied would come? What authority does one claiming such have to rely on to prove such? What scriptural backing? If someone can make up scripture, then what’s to prevent the Mormons from doing the same?

JGIG –> Matthew 22:34-40

Sounds like you have some history with Mormons . . . they add to the Scriptures. No kidding. That has nothing to do with me.

JGIG –> The Old Covenantal system is not a part of what John teaches us to look for or measure by. “Who do you say Jesus is” is the question we must ask those who seek to teach us. If anyone preaches a different Jesus that that of the Scriptures, then they are a false prophet/teacher.

Israel –> I wholeheartedly agree.

JGIG –> Yet you measure everything by Torah and rabbinics and not by the Living Christ.

JGIG –> Regarding #4 – You’re using the word ‘kept’ in that the second set of tablets was put away, retained, in a storage kind of way. What I meant when I said that the second tablets were not kept any better than the first was in the ‘keeping of, an observing of the Law’ sense.

Israel –> I mean both. The tablets were kept (observed) more so than before, and also retained (and not broken in the physical sense). The point scriptures make is clear. One set was broken, the other is not. If they had kept sinning as much as they did prior, the new set would have been broken as well. It’s not just narrative. It’s to teach you something about the Covenant – that the first time it’s given, it’s broken, then it is given again, and this time it is kept (in every sense of the word). We see this in the case concerning Adam and Eve. G-d gave them the Torah, that as long as they kept it, they had eternal life. They broke it, and died. Yet G-d renews it to them, indicating that “your desire will be for your husband, and and he will rule over you,” to the one who is called “mother of all the living” indicating that one who desires our husband, Messiah, he will (in the World to Come) rule over you (as our King), and this is promised to all those who are alive (have eternal life because of this “desire” for Messiah). Thus showing us that the King keeps the Torah (and he lives forever) and we who desire him will have him rule over us (a promise of resurrection unto eternal life, for how can a King rule over dead people?).

JGIG –> No. Israel demonstrably broke the covenant with God repeatedly. Nice try though.

JGIG –> Regarding #5 – You disregard the work of the Cross and what Jesus Christ accomplished there. Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe on Him. In Christ, the Law becomes an obsolete religious system. If you are in Christ, you are no longer under the Law.

Israel –> Christ is the “goal” of the Torah for all who believe on him. Just as viewing a planet through a telescope doesn’t cause the planet to cease to exist or make the telescope of no use, so too viewing Jesus through Torah doesn’t make Jesus cease to exist, or make the Torah of no use in seeing him. The same greek root “teleos” is used there. It means “goal” not (final) end (as in making void).

JGIG –> So you stay on the viewing end of the telescope – instead of going to that which the telescope has pointed you.

JGIG –> Regarding #6 – You’re trying to make Yeshua the Living Torah again, Israel. Not buyin’ it. Sorry. Torah points to Christ. Christ did the work of the Cross. The religious system that was Torah is now obsolete because of that work at the Cross.

Israel –> If the Torah defines Messiah (and I think your disagreement with this is the crux of your faulty hermeneutic) then if the Torah is obsolete, then Christ too would be absolete.

JGIG –> Torah points to Christ. Who He IS is defined here: “9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.” (Colossians 2:9-15)

The Reality of Who Jesus Christ is goes FAR beyond the shadows that Torah and the prophets could see! Think blueprint vs. skyscraper, artist’s sketch vs. masterpiece. The pictures, types, and shadows are but a glimpse of the substance!

Israel cont. –> For if the definition of an apple is obsolete then the apple (as a concept) is obsolete.

JGIG –> That makes no sense. So if the blueprints are no longer needed (obsolete) because the skyscraper is complete, the skyscraper ceases to exist? If the artist does away with the sketch because they hold the masterpiece in their hands, the masterpiece is obsolete? You need a new metaphor, Israel. That one does not work on a number of levels. Regarding Torah, the whole of Torah is not obsolete, but the system of Law within the Torah is obsolete in light of the New Covenant in Christ’s Blood.

Israel cont. –>Yet even if the Torah could be made obsolete, there is no prophecy anywhere in scripture that would ever give such a claim legitimacy. And if you believe the claim of obsoleteness of a scripture can come outside of that very scripture itself, then you practically hand the scepter of validity to any and all false religions that do the same including Mormonism and Islam who validate their claims outside of the scripture they attempt to make obsolete. In other words, if you claim the Torah can be made obsolete, then you have to be able to form your legal basis for such a claim from the very words of Torah itself, otherwise you introduce a claim that is outside of that closed system (and thus invalidate the Torah’s claim that it is a closed system of revelation – a catch22 that invalidates both claims the moment your outside claim can even be considered valid). It’s pure and simple logic. You can’t have a prophet arising one day and say that Genesis-Revelation is now obsolete and that there is a New new testament that is the truth, or else you invalidate the solid testimony of the scriptures that came before that clearly teaches one is not to add or subtract from its commands (and teaching derived therefrom). If the prophet of the New new testament is telling the truth, then what is prevent another prophet from arising with a New new new testament invalidating the one that came before? Your eternal life based on a “new” testamenet, or the “new” “new” testament, wouldn’t be all that eternal in the face of a “new” “new” “new” testament, now would it? Yet this is the logical conclusion of your hermeneutic when you suggest even for a second that the Torah can ever become “obsolete.”

I suppose I’d have to ask the leading questions now: in your mind what is the Torah obsolete about? Salvation? Defining sin? When did Torah ever save a dead person? If Torah never saved mankind after the Fall, then what is made obsolete? If you say its definition of sin is made obsolete, then are there two standards of sin: one for the believer who is under the law, and one who is of Christ? If so, can what a Christian do not be sin, but is a sin for an unbeliever? Can you think of an example? Which command is expected of unbelievers, that isn’t expected of believers?

JGIG –> That was an impressive display of totally mischaracterizing what it means for the Old Covenant to be obsolete. The Old Covenant is contained IN Torah.

JGIG –> Regarding #8 – But Torah does not teach how to go out an make disciples of all tribes tongues and nations.

Israel –> Yes it does. Where shall I begin?
Noah preached righteousness but after 120 years of preaching, he only had 7 disciples.
Abram won souls (hebrew: nefesh) in Haran. He was the first great evangelist of the one true G-d. – Gen 12:4
“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.”- Gen 49:10

This teaches us that all those who are obedient to Messiah, are called amim – peoples, not goyim – gentiles, aka they are identifeid “with him” ie, in the tribe of Judah, ie converts, ie (called) Jews.

JGIG –> Galatians 3:26-29 says, “26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Israel cont. –> When Israel left Egypt there was a “great many other people” who “went up with them” – Ex 12:38.

In Jewish tradition, when Israel received the Torah in the wilderness at Sinai, the words were given in all 70 languages of the world (the 70 nations of Noah) to peals of thunder and tongues of fire (a direct correlation that happened on that exact same day thousands of years later on what Christians call Pentecost).

“When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.” – Deut 20:10

It teaches clearly that Israel was to go out into the world and make terms of peace. True peace. Not a fake political peace.

JGIG –> Riiiight . . . that’s why God said, “When you march up to attack a city . . . ” No, sir, God was giving those who were to be conquered by the nation of Israel a chance at mercy: surrender or die.

Israel cont. –> What peace? The true peace of reconcilliation between G-d and man, of which Messiah is called the Prince of Peace. Israel was to offer the nations the Messiah, and if they don’t accept, they were to conqour them.

JGIG –> Okay, this is getting weirder and weirder. Israel was offering Messiah to the nations? Messiah had not yet come. Details, details.

Israel cont. –> Will this not be so at the End of Days? Will not all nations be subjected to the King of Kings? How much more so G-d desires to offer the nations terms of peace through Messiah rather than destroying them.

JGIG –> I’m content to leave the End of Days to He Who holds all in His Hands.

Israel cont. –> Many many times in Torah is Israel so instructed to bring Messiah to the nations. Many orthodox Jews know this. It is after all the Jewish understanding of evangelism, for as the prophet also writes:

“Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The Torah will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” – Is 2:3

If the Torah is obsolete, then this prophecy will never come to pass.

JGIG –> Israel is not to bring Messiah to the nations (and she demonstrably does not) – The Body of Christ is. Oh, and those Orthodox Jews . . . they reject Jesus Christ.

JGIG –> Torah taught to stay set apart from the world. We are to go out in to the world and preach the Gospel – to go out into the world yet be not of it. That is an impossible task within the confines of Torah Law.

Israel –> If this were so, then how could Jesus in Mark 1:15 “preach the gospel?” Isn’t he perfect to Torah? Yet he managed to reach even tax collectors and prostitutes and make them his disciples! Did Jesus sin? No. So if Jesus, who was perfect to to Torah and thus very “separated” from sin, how much more so we can and SHOULD do the same when bringing the gospel to the rest of the world! The gospel does not need to be compromised by our walk in order for people to accept the gospel message. If anything, this is the fallacy of some modern church movements, and often causes people follow a shallow gospel that when tested, doesn’t have much root at all.

JGIG –> Are you saying that Torah did not teach to stay set apart from the world?

JGIG –>Regarding #9 – Um, Israel, I was speaking of eternal life. Torah does not claim to offer that. The verses you quoted speak of self-preservation in the flesh.

Israel –> No where is the word “flesh” mentioned.

JGIG –> So the flesh was not stoned in cases of disobedience where stoning was required? What was stoned??

JGIG –> Obey and be blessed. Disobey and be cursed, or worse yet, be put to death. You wrote, “And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.” Um, no, Israel.

Israel –> You’re not disagreeing with me on this. You’re disagreeing with scripture. As it is written:

“And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.” – Deut 6:25

Did G-d lie? Did G-d change his mind since then? No. G-d’s Word is eternal.

JGIG –> God did not lie in the least. No one has ever kept the Law. One instance of breaking it disqualifies one from righteousness (so don’t even bother with the Zach and Liz defense – they kept the Law in the confines of the Law, but they were not sinless). Jesus was sinless and therefore is perfectly righteous. It is His righteousness that we put on when we put on Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:30 says, “30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

JGIG –>Jesus Christ is our righteousness: 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 says, “30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: ‘Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.’” You are boasting in the Law.

JGIG –> Like I said . . .

Israel –> I am not boasting in the law. There is a righteousness that comes by the law… and a righteousness that comes by faith. Two different kinds of righteousness. The Torah preaches both. Messiah has the first kind (because he is perfect to Torah). We who believe in him have the second kind (because we have faith in his work). If you ever remove the first kind, you make Christ’s righteousness nothing, and our inheritance of eternal life based on his righteousness totally null and void without legal standing. Therefore, Chris is perfect to Torah…forever.

JGIG –> Everything you think and do and write about it Torah-centric, Israel. There is no denying that.

JGIG –>Regarding #10 – About PaRDeS: If it’s so great, why aren’t those who practice it (the Rabbis and Sages from different streams of Judaism) flocking to Jesus Christ and acknowledging Him as their Saviour in droves?

Israel –> I have firsthand contacts with those that do, and from them I also hear that many already do. But because the Messiah that most Christians preach by their lifestyle and walk is a Messiah that does away with the Torah, causes a Jew to forsake sabbath and kosher, among other things, and in their minds is rightly labeled a false prophet according to Deut 13, so they stay in the synagogue, and often due to the “popularity” of “Jesus Christ” in Judaism (by the actions of his claimed followers) many are fearful of letting on to others that they believe so for fear of being kicked out of the synagogue (which Jesus said would happen anyways). Many don’t want to go to Church for fear of letting others know that they yes, still keep Torah because they are commanded to do so!

JGIG –> I have no problem with those who desire to observe Feasts and Days and dietary laws and other edicts found in Mosaic Covenant Law. Romans 14 deals with those issues specifically (I know your Torah-centricity sees it differently and I’ve written about that HERE on JGIG). It is out of bounds, however, when those who choose to observe edicts and regulations teach that it is mandated for all believers.

Israel cont. –> Imagine if such believers who “keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus” (Rev 12:19) actually became vocal in the Church today? Could you imagine how “well” they would be received? Though the time is coming when the silence will be too deafening to bear, but the message that such believers will have for the Church won’t be well-received now, and the time is not yet right, so they remain still silent. I remain silent as well, when I visit Christian groups, although often my clothing speaks for me and causes others to ask questions about what I beleive.

JGIG –> Um, that’s called Judaizing, and Paul spoke quite forcefully against it.

JGIG –> PaRDeS results in confusing, not clarifying, the Gospel and the teachings of the writings to the Body of Christ.

Israel –> I whole heartedly disagree. When used properly, PaRDeS is the means whereby the gospel is understood and Christ seen all the more clearly.

JGIG –> You are entitled to your opinion, but PaRDeS rabbinic in origin and has components of mysticism. Not buyin’ it.

JGIG –> PaRDeS, by its nature of trying to find ‘hidden meaning’ and ‘unique insight’ in every stroke and structure of text ends up seeing things that are not there, and/or constructing what the reader wishes were there.

Israel –> Not if one follows the rules of hermeneutics embedded in using PaRDeS.

JGIG –> I’ll repeat here: You are entitled to your opinion, but PaRDeS rabbinic in origin and has components of mysticism. Not buyin’ it.

JGIG –>You have made Torah your god. The balance of your views reflect that position.

Israel –> When it is by Torah we know the truth of G-d, how much more so then is anything outside of it not G-d. Or else you wind up with idolatry, and no limit to the imagination.

JGIG –> When it comes right down to it, you preach a different gospel, and a different Jesus than is reflected in the writings given to the Body of Christ.

Israel –> I disagree.

I think instead, we disagree on the centrality of the Torah as regards to hermeneutics. You believe it can be nullified and subtracted from, contrary to what it says that one is not to add or subtract from all that it commands. Your hermeneutic essentially hands the keys of legitimacy to every false religion that attempts to do the same, even though you don’t intend to.

Your hermeneutic makes out G-d to promote some kind of non-Torah based double standard for sinners vs some ethereal arbitrary and undefined standard for saints, and a G-d who changes his eternal Word without any prior justification for doing so – thus unwittingly placing the eternality of anyone’s salvation into serious question since at anytime in the future G-d could change his mind again contrary to his Word.

I don’t believe that you believe in a fickle G-d, but in all honesty that is the kind of G-d your hermeneautic would lead anyone to conclude once they consider the totality of scripture beginning with In the Beginning. Especially Jews who know better than to accept anything that contradicts the Torah.

I encourage you to reconsider.

JGIG –> Your’s is the “My God never changes” argument. Someone else posted something HERE today that I think says it well: “Honestly, I am so SICK of the “he hasn’t changed” argument. It’s so… ignorant. Look, if a master builder builds the foundation one day, and then the frame the next, and then does the plumbing next… has the BUILDER changed, or has the BUILDING? The building, of course. The changing — rather the GROWING — of the building is the builder’s plan. Steps need to happen IN ORDER so that the building is complete. The builder has not “changed” nor has he “changed his mind” if the building looks different to an outsider on any given day.

God has not changed, but he does have a master plan. The Law didn’t exist for thousands of years, and then he gave it to Israel. Did he “change” when he dropped 613 commandments on Israel? No? Why not? Weren’t the laws “new”?

The Law is all a part of his plan. It’s one part of the house.”

No need for me to reconsider. I’m a living stone in the Building my Creator laid plans for long ago . . .

“4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.” (1 Peter 2:4-10)

Israel, we could go on and on here, but it would not be profitable for either of us.

Blessings as you go,
-JGIG
(from JGIG – Not sure why the bolding tags are not working all the way to the end of the post – have tried to fix them 3 times grrr. Oh well.)

Reply
- JGIG, on December 27, 2010 at 1:26 pm said:
  
  - My response to Israel is in the bolded type above for ease of reading -
  
  Reply
  - Israel, on December 28, 2010 at 4:54 pm said:
    
    Did you get my response? Feel free to pick up the conversation over email if it’s not something you want to publish on your blog.
    
    Shalom,
    
    Israel
    
    Reply
    - JGIG, on December 29, 2010 at 2:00 pm said:
      
      Hi Israel,
      
      Yes, I did get your response. I wrote this at the end of my last post, “Israel, we could go on and on here, but it would not be profitable for either of us.”
      
      I think we are at the point where we have to ask ourselves, “What is it that we hope to accomplish?” My goal is not to convert you, as you are obviously firm in your convictions. If you are out to convert me, rest assured that I am also equally firm in my convictions =o).
      
      My goal is, however, to provide the reader, specifically those who’s paths are crossed with the teachings of Law ‘keeping’ sects, examples of beliefs in those sects, and demonstrate the errors found there. I think that goal has been accomplished with our discourse, and that there is no profit in continuing. Your latest comment (which I did not post here) strays further away from the post content originally commented upon, and as I said, will profit neither one of us if we continue, and in my opinion, will not profit the reader here at JGIG.
      
      I’ve enjoyed our discourse! You of course, may comment on other posts here at JGIG =o)!
      
      Blessings as you go,
      -JGIG
      
      Reply
Captain Obvious, on December 14, 2010 at 4:37 pm said:

You said “If Jesus is God in the flesh, and Jesus = the written Word, then you are limiting the scope of Who God is to the written Word.”

and “It is in the deification of Torah itself where we differ.”

You are confused. I am not “deifying Torah”, nor am I limiting Jesus to JUST the written Word. I thought I made that clear. I am simply taking the concept of “the Word made flesh” to its logical conclusion. If Jesus is the “logos/spoken Word made flesh”, then He is ALSO the WRITTEN Word made flesh. God doesn’t have two Words, one written, one spoken. It was ALL spoken FIRST, then written down later.

Torah is PART of the Word, therefore it is also PART of Jesus. Therefore “Jesus is the living Torah” is an accurate statement, though it is not all encompassing. Jesus is ALSO the living Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, etc. He is ALL of these things and more. Therefore to reject any one of these things is to reject part of the Messiah.

My only point in all of this is that you cannot perform theological surgery and remove Torah from the Word just because you don’t like the phrase “Jesus is the living Torah”. Like it or not, it is accurate.

Reply
- JGIG, on December 14, 2010 at 6:36 pm said:
  
  Captain Obvious,
  
  If you say that ‘Jesus is the Living Torah’ is an accurate statement, just not all-encompassing of who Jesus is, then why would you use that term at all? There is no acceptable reason to limit Him in His scope, unless one has another (Torah-centric) agenda afoot.
  
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
  - Captain Obvious, on December 15, 2010 at 7:22 am said:
    
    But if you say “Jesus was the prophecies come to life” or something along those lines, nobody would accuse you of having an agenda. How is that any different?
    
    My only agenda is the Word of God. All of it.
    
    Reply
    - JGIG, on December 15, 2010 at 1:57 pm said:
      
      Jesus wasn’t the prophecies ‘come to life’. He is the fulfillment – the substance – not some personification. I sense that you and I could go on and on semantically about ‘Yeshua is the Living Torah’ for some time. Not sure I’m going to take the time for that.
      
      The ‘agenda’, as I see it, is one of elevating Torah and misusing the Law to convince believers that they are still bound to the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law. In so doing, that agenda, intentionally or not, diminishes Who Jesus Christ is and what He accomplished with His Life, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
      
      Blessings,
      -JGIG
      
      Reply
Morgan, on January 5, 2011 at 10:28 am said:

Hi, thank you for your hard work for the truth. I was wondering if you could take a look at a site and see if there is anything you can do to help folks there respond to the Hebrew Roots people. Thank you.
[Link removed]

Reply
- JGIG, on January 5, 2011 at 2:13 pm said:
  
  Hi Morgan,
  
  Thanks for your kind words =o). I’ve emailed you privately regarding the Forum you mentioned.
  
  Every blessing,
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
Herb, on January 23, 2011 at 7:20 pm said:

Obviously, I am out of my league here, but I have read this long discussion until my head hurts.At one point Israel made a comment we can probably all agree with, that God does not change. I may have missed it, but I don’t recall any mention of Oral Torah. Jews, especially but not limited to Orthodox Jews, believe that every Jew who ever lived or will live was present at Sinai when God gave both Oral and Written Torah to Moses. And the written Torah cannot be obeyed without guidance from the Oral Torah.

Later Joshua tells us that all of written Torah was read to the people. Oral Torah was not written down for many centuries, but it was and is considered equally valid as the written Torah. That is, both are the Word of God.

1. Doesn’t that present a problem for those who say, “Jesus=Torah?”
2. My second question is about this comment: Israel –> My point was to show you Paul’s point that a new covenant can never set aside a previous covenant. That is a universal law. This means any “new covenant” can’t nullify an “older covenant.”

Jeremiah did not believe in that “universal law.”

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD.

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people;

Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: ‘Know the LORD’; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. (JPS)

I really don’t see such a “universal law” anywhere in Scripture, so where did you get that idea?

. Of course God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob cannot be set aside because that is an everlasting covenant between God and God, so to speak. But the Sinai covenant between God and the Chosen People has an “if” clause in it. And, as JGIG mentioned, the people broke that contract.

Love in Christ,
Herb

Reply
- JGIG, on January 25, 2011 at 11:58 am said:
  
  Hi Herb,
  
  Yeah, that’s a long discourse . . . my head hurt too =o)!
  
  Regarding Oral Law – Israel’s (the commenter, not the nation) website is steeped in Talmudic and Kabbalistic thought. If you take a look through his recommended reading list, you’ll find examples of writings that have nothing to do with faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
  
  His site is a good example of what happens when you try to mix a religion that has chosen to deny Jesus Christ as Messiah (Judaism) and Biblical Christianity, which embraces Jesus Christ and His completed work. You end up with a confusing mess, actually. To those being exposed to it initially, it is a fascinating study (echoes of “who has bewitched you” here . . . ), but when you look at the big picture, there are several fatal flaws.
  
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
- Israel, on January 25, 2011 at 4:39 pm said:
  
  Herb –> I may have missed it, but I don’t recall any mention of Oral Torah.
  
  Israel –> Correct. My love and desire is to only understand the truth from the written Torah. The oral Torah, in my experience, is always found in the written, as even the Sages agree that the oral came before the written.
  
  Herb –> Jews, especially but not limited to Orthodox Jews, believe that every Jew who ever lived or will live was present at Sinai when God gave both Oral and Written Torah to Moses. And the written Torah cannot be obeyed without guidance from the Oral Torah.
  
  Israel –> Correct. But the Big Misconception is that the oral Torah came after the written. When viewed as two separate bodies of information, that is when one has entered into heresy. But an oral tradition has always accompanied the written text. After all, how can one know what an aleph is (the first letter of the Hebrew alephbet) without someone telling you? Thus you rely on a teacher to frame your understanding of the written. So too when you go to a new job. Imagine all the oral unwritten rules of the job that someone has to teach you in order to do it. So too the oral Torah is what opens up our understanding of the written, however this oral Torah I’m referring to is not the Talmud, nor Kabbalah, nor Chassidut, nor anything JGIG has pointed out is on our reading list. It’s simply tradition handed from teacher to student, in how to understand certain portions of the text, and of course, at any point the oral contradicts the written, then it’s not the fault of the written, but of the one claiming they are teaching an oral tradition from Moses.
  
  Herb — >Later Joshua tells us that all of written Torah was read to the people. Oral Torah was not written down for many centuries, but it was and is considered equally valid as the written Torah. That is, both are the Word of God.
  
  Israel –> On the contrary, the oral came before the written, and yes, it was all written down… in the Torah.
  
  Herb –> 2. My second question is about this comment: Israel –> My point was to show you Paul’s point that a new covenant can never set aside a previous covenant. That is a universal law. This means any “new covenant” can’t nullify an “older covenant.” Jeremiah did not believe in that “universal law.” I really don’t see such a “universal law” anywhere in Scripture, so where did you get that idea?
  
  Israel –> I think the idea is for you to prove to me that there is any indication that a newer covenant nullifies a previous one. Jeremiah never said so. It says simply “I will make a covenant not like the covenant I made with your fathers…” but it says nothing of nullification of the previous. In fact, G-d says “even though I was faithful.” If anything, it appears G-d is making an new (renewed) addition to the previous covenant. The only difference between the covenants mentioned in the text is that the first one is broken by one party and kept by the other party… the new one is kept by both parties. That is the ONLY difference in the text between the two covenants presented.
  
  Herb –> the Sinai covenant between God and the Chosen People has an “if” clause in it. And, as JGIG mentioned, the people broke that contract.
  
  Israel –> That “if” clause remains in effect forever and has no termination point, as Torah says:
  
  “When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.” (Deut 30:1-3)
  
  Sounds to me like this promise endures forever, as it was again fulfilled in 1948 with the end of the Roman exile and the establishment of the State of Israel.
  
  JGIG –> Regarding Oral Law – Israel’s (the commenter, not the nation) website is steeped in Talmudic and Kabbalistic thought. If you take a look through his recommended reading list, you’ll find examples of writings that have nothing to do with faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
  
  Israel –> Some, not all. Obviously it’s good for readers to read some things with a grain of salt, and like most reading lists, not everything in every book is recommended reading nor things we agree with. If you want to see what we agree with, join our mailing list and get involved in the discussions.
  
  JGIG –> His site is a good example of what happens when you try to mix a religion that has chosen to deny Jesus Christ as Messiah (Judaism) and Biblical Christianity, which embraces Jesus Christ and His completed work. You end up with a confusing mess, actually.
  
  Israel –> Actually the mess tends to clear up when you have a heart of repentence and a desire for seeking the truth of matters when studying with others who too are studying the Word of G-d together.
  
  JGIG –> To those being exposed to it initially, it is a fascinating study (echoes of “who has bewitched you” here . . . ), but when you look at the big picture, there are several fatal flaws.
  
  Israel –> JGIG, I would really like to know what fatal flaws we hold to. Evening naming one would be sufficient to make your point valid. As stated above, we love the truth, and the pusuit of truth is nothing we are ashamed of, so by all means, share away. Let me know where we’re wrong, and we’ll be glad to discuss it! If you don’t want to discuss it on your blog for fear of your readers being led astray (G-d forbid) then by all means, email me. But certainly please don’t paint us as anti-Christs and when we are nothing of the sort.
  
  Shalom,
  
  Israel
  
  Reply
  - JGIG, on January 27, 2011 at 12:08 am said:
    
    Hi Israel,
    
    About your response to Herb about, “Jews, especially but not limited to Orthodox Jews, believe that every Jew who ever lived or will live was present at Sinai when God gave both Oral and Written Torah to Moses.” You responded, “Correct.” Um . . . got Scripture for that one, Israel? You’re sounding more than a little New Agey with that one.
    
    A question regarding your description of Oral Torah: Have you ever played ‘Telephone’? =o)
    
    Regarding Oral Torah being written down, beyond the ‘telephone’ and Jewish Mysticism issues, Talmud and related texts deny Jesus Christ/Yeshua as Messiah. Why would those who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ rely on such writings for any instruction in our faith?
    
    Thanks for the invite to the mailing list, but no thanks.
    
    Israel –> Actually the mess tends to clear up when you have a heart of repentance and a desire for seeking the truth of matters when studying with others who too are studying the Word of G-d together.
    
    JGIG –> Israel, if you were studying just the Word of God, you would not be where you are. Again, no thanks.
    
    As for the fatal flaws issue, I actually just posted about that HERE. I’ll let the reader decide whether they think you are ultimately for or against Christ, and God to make the ultimate judgement.
    
    -JGIG
    
    Reply
Hamilton Stinson, on December 7, 2011 at 9:54 am said:

JGIG,

Here are two undeniable words that drive you law-breakers crazy, and for which you cannot move beyond unless you play fast and loose with the entire Bible:

1) Perpetual

One example:

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

I know, I know, you’re likely going to say “We’re not the children of Israel,” and that you’re “a new covenant believer”. I used to think the same way. But with whom is the new covenant made?

Jeremiah 31:31, Hebrew 8:8 Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

2) Forever

Two examples:

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God: But those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Psalm 119:44 So shall I keep Your law continually forever and ever.

I’m sorry to ask the obvious questions, but does something that is “perpetual” somehow cease to be so, and does “forever” come to an end?

And if you try and put the spin on by redefining “perpetual” and “forever” to mean something other than what they plainly and clearly mean, then you’ll have to do the same with the verses you choose to hold dear, (as you toss out the ones you don’t like).

An example:

1 Chronicles 16:34 O give thanks to the LORD; for He is good; for His mercy endures forever.

I’m sure you don’t want to say that His mercy does not endure forever.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

Shalom,
Hamilton

Reply
- JGIG, on December 8, 2011 at 7:29 am said:
  
  Hi Hamilton,
  
  Welcome to JGIG.
  
  You raise some excellent points, and points that tend to confuse Christians and sway them toward Law ‘keeping’ if they don’t understand three things:
  
  1) Each time the words ‘law’, ‘commandments’, ‘precepts’, ‘statutes’ or another similar word appears in Scripture, they don’t all refer to Mosaic Covenant Law all the time. One need only to think of the many different commands and instructions that God has given before, during, and after the codified Law was given at Sinai to see that this is true. God often gave different instructions to different people for different purposes. The Mosaic Covenant Law was no different. It had it’s time and place, but is now obsolete in Christ. (See the letter to the Hebrews.)
  
  2) Israel did not hold up her end of the Mosaic Covenant with God. Through repeated rebellion and idolatry, the covenant that you seek to label as perpetual is in reality broken. God, however, has remained faithful to His promises for His purposes, praise and glory. Jeremiah 31 tells how God will bring, and the letter to the Hebrews tells how God did indeed bring, a New Covenant in which HE holds up both ends of the bargain and we can enter into by putting our faith and trust in Christ. The New Covenant fulfills Promises given to Adam and Eve at the Fall, to Abraham, and to Israel. The New Covenant, not like the old, and with better promises, covers all who put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ the Messiah, not just Israel/Judah.
  
  3) The Hebrew word for ‘perpetual’, and ‘forever’, ‘owlam’ (H5769), can mean forever, but does not always mean forever. Its meaning is conditional, depending on the nature of that which is being described. From Christian-thinktank.com :
  
  Olam thus seems to mean ‘indefinitely, with reference to the nature of the thing being so described.’ If the nature is God, then olam (or owlam) means ‘truly eternal’. If the nature is a human, then it means ‘as long as he lives’. If the nature is a relationship, then it means as long as the conditions upon which the relationship is based still hold. And this: And, since we know the Mosaic covenant was a conditional one, it could easily have been understood after the model of many others in the OT/Tanakh: “eternal, as long as the agreed upon conditions are met”. [Though I don’t agree with everything in the article cited, the two statements above give a good description of the conditional nature of the word “owlam”.
  
  You can read about ‘owlam’ and how it is defined Hebraically HERE, just scroll down to the last entry.
  
  In your last point, you’re trying to apply an eternal attribute to Mosaic Covenant Law (where that attribute clearly does not apply, as Israel broke the covenant) and then compare the eternal attribute of God’s mercy and hold them as equal. That’s a fallacious comparison.
  
  Thank you, Hamilton, for bringing these valid points to the fore =o).
  
  Blessings,
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
Answering the Critics: JGIG « Joyfully Growing In Torah, on January 3, 2012 at 2:36 pm said:

Edit by JGIG: The man (first known as Captain Obvious, then as JoyfullyGrowingInSin, then as Joyfully Growing In Torah) who has made it his mission to troll after me for over a year now has now started a blog. On his blog he copies and pastes Hebrew Roots Teachings and takes shots at Joyfully Growing In Grace.

The following comment came here through a ‘ping back’, which is a notification to this blog if anyone links here. True to form, Growing In Torah takes what I’ve written out of context and distorts and twists for his own purposes. Just a heads up, folks!

[...] original JGIG article can be found here: http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2010/11/05/12-undeniable-truths-that-drive-law-keepers-c…) Share this:PrintTwitterFacebookDiggStumbleUponMoreEmailLike this:LikeBe the first to like this [...]

Reply
Tom Lemke, on January 4, 2012 at 2:07 pm said:

JGIG: Love this post. :)
I would add another “truth that drive law-keepers crazy” to the pot:
Adam and Eve’s children married their siblings (as did Abraham) – something prohibited by Leviticus 20:17.

I had a dialogue with one law-keeper more than a year ago (http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2010/12/21/should-followers-of-jesus-celebrate-christmas-the-annual-line-of-fire-debate/#comment-36329.com” rel=”nofollow”>here) who absolutely insisted that the laws given at Sinai were eternal and had always been obeyed by the people of God, to which I responded by asking why Seth married his sister. The man at first tried to deny this happened (saying “he probably married a niece”), but I pointed out that, barring God creating another original couple separate from Adam and Eve, God forced men into a situation where it was impossible to continue the race without sinning (i.e. marrying a sister), OR it was not originally a sin to marry a sister. This conclusion is unavoidable regardless of whether Seth specifically married a niece or not (a kid can figure out that if you start with 2 people, you can’t get to 3+ generations without at least one brother and sister union).

He sparked and sputtered and could give no coherent response

Reply
- JGIG, on January 4, 2012 at 3:35 pm said:
  
  That is a great point!
  
  That alone blows the whole “God does not change so neither can His laws” argument! (To clarify to the Law ‘keeping’ reader: I do not believe that God changes; it is evident, however, that God’s specific instructions have changed throughout the ages in order to bring about His purposes.)
  
  Double thumbs up, Tom!
  
  Blessings,
  -JGIG
  
  Reply
- Israel, on January 4, 2012 at 5:32 pm said:
  
  In regards to the command to “choose life” this command takes precedence over any prohibition in the Torah, except three: adultery, murder, and idol worship. This means that even in a situation such as Seth and his sister, the command to “multiply” overrides the prohibition to lay with one’s sister, because if Seth and Cain were to refuse doing so, they would violate the command to “choose life” and the human race would have become extinct.
  
  The entire Torah is legally consistent. It is a whole, complete revelation, unified and not at all contradictory, and certainly not “progressive”.
  
  After all, to what law was G-d referring to when he warned that sin was crouching at Cain’s door? When was the prohibition of murder written in the Torah? Before or after Cain?
  
  Reply
  - JGIG, on January 5, 2012 at 8:38 pm said:
    
    You’re operating on the premise that Torah preceded Sinai. There is no Scripture to back up that notion.
    
    Romans 5:12-13 says this:
    12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
    
    In Galatians 3, the Law is described as being given 430 years after Abraham!
    
    Your premise does not match up with the Scriptures =o).
    
    -JGIG
    
    Reply
  - Tom Lemke, on January 6, 2012 at 12:21 pm said:
    
    Israel: What JGIG said. Also, note that Abraham too married his sister at a later date, when this wasn’t the only option as it was in Seth’s case.
    
    Reply

Joyfully Growing in Grace

What JGIG Is:

Today's Top Posts

Email Subscription

Broken Links – UGH

Key Ring

12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law ‘Keepers’ Crazy

Other articles of interest:

40 Responses

Leave a Reply Cancel reply

What JGIG is Not:

Recent Comments

Categories

Archives

Visitors 10/10-10/11

Blog Stats

Copyright

WARNING

Follow “Joyfully Growing in Grace”

Joyfully Growing in Grace

What JGIG Is:

Today's Top Posts

Email Subscription

Broken Links – UGH

Key Ring

12 Undeniable Truths That Drive Law ‘Keepers’ Crazy

Other articles of interest:

Share this:

Like this:

40 Responses

Leave a Reply Cancel reply

What JGIG is Not:

Recent Comments

Categories

Archives

Visitors 10/10-10/11

Blog Stats

Copyright

WARNING

Follow “Joyfully Growing in Grace”